Exceptions to Gender-Based Grooming Standards?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The Ninth is the only circuit to rule on it because the other circuits haven't had a case reach them to rule on yet.

I was under the impression that circuit courts take into consideration other circuit court rulings? Guess I'll have to study up on my civics again.


Edit: So I'm not completely insane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_split

[PHall]

The Ninth is the only circuit to rule on it because the other circuits haven't had a case reach them to rule on yet.

I was under the impression that circuit courts take into consideration other circuit court rulings? Guess I'll have to study up on my civics again.


Edit: So I'm not completely insane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_split

A court can't rule on a case that is not before it. i.e. The 2nd Circuit can not rule on a case that is before the 4th Circuit.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Obviously. But they can take it into account.

[PHall]

Obviously. But they can take it into account.

And a court can't rule on a case until that case is before it. Then they can use all the legal precedant they want.
But until the case is before them they can do nada.

[Wispin]

We can discuss legal issues here all day long and play armchair lawyer, but the question is not "What is legal?" but "What is right?".

One of our core values is volunteer service, and another is respect. The bottom line is .. if there is an individual that wants to serve, shouldn't they have an environment that respects them as individuals, and doesn't exclude them needlessly because a core facet of their existence doesn't jive with our (arbitrary!) ideas of grooming and uniformity? Yes, it's a "military" organization .. but I don't have to wear AF-styled BDUs to contribute meaningfully to a SAR mission, nor do I have to wear dress blues to look sharp at a promotion ceremony.

It might not work in the "normal" way of doing things .. but that's why there should be a policy about it, so that the "normal" way of doing things reflects reality.

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, it's a "military" organization .. but I don't have to wear AF-styled BDUs to contribute meaningfully to a SAR mission, nor do I have to wear dress blues to look sharp at a promotion ceremony.

You also don't have to be a member of CAP or participate in the Cadet Programs. But if you choose to do so, then you need to comply with the appropriate regulations and standards.

[MSG Mac]

No matter your opinion(s) regarding this cadet's sexual status, he did ask a legitimate question regarding how CAP will respond to his possible transgender status. This is a situation which, as Wispin alluded to, may be a little bit less rare than we want to believe. CAP is not the Air Force, and doesn't have the restriction on membership that the Armed Forces do, nor the legal protections against discrimination which the DOD has.

Cadet Faith this this matter should be referred to NHQ for some kind of relief to your situation. Seeing you're from Maryland, you may want to attend the Wing Conference Nov 7-8, where MG Vasquez will be visiting and present your concerns to him, if only to get the ball rolling (You too, Wispin).

[SARDOC]

The USAF can limit a lot of things while CAP cannot due to our civilian status.

Cannot?  CAP is a private organization with "at will" membership.  It can, and does, limit anything it wants.

Further, the USAF determines the wear standards for all of CAP's uniforms, and therefore has the final word on who can where which
styles and the manner in which they will be worn, including any grooming issues.

Also to caveat, that the membership in Civil Air Patrol is a Privilege and not a Right, the Organization has a lot of say over who can and can't be a member.  Protected Classes can't be discriminated against but if there are issues with maintaining good order that is another argument all together.

[spaatzmom]

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?

Did you KNOW cadets with BDU skirts, or did you HEAR about it?  The number of people who swear they've seen "BDU skirts" makes it sound pretty prevalent. I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....

<snip>

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

Can't wait for the flight-skirt option, in Nomex.

Two young ladies (sisters) from ALWG at the time attended an NCSA I was at, I can't remember if I was staffing it or a participant at the time.  At least one of them has since changed her religious views, unfortunately I cannot recall off the top of my head what the former religion was.

It was an extreme interpretation held by this branch of Pentecostals.  The issue was brought up well before the event and was determined by legal at NHQ that the girls did not have to were pants, but did have to find the correct and matching material to make their skirts out of if they could not find a pre made skirt.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Thank you ma'am!

[Johnny Yuma]

(Apologies if this isn't in the best fitting board)

So, I'm a male Cadet Airman Basic in the Maryland Wing that's been in Civil Air Patrol for roughly 5 months or so (going off the top of my head). I love the activities, comradery, and wearing the uniform. However, (and it's kind of strange to explain on this forum) I'm very unhappy with myself, and, for several reasons, believe I may be potentially happier as a male-to-female transgender. As I've developed these feelings, getting haircuts to fit Civil Air Patrol has become more and more uncomfortable and anxious.
Are there any past cases of, or validity to, requesting something like permission to abide by female grooming standards desite being biologically male? I understand the importance of respecting the Air Force uniforms we've been allowed to wear; I just don't want to have to either wait until I'm 21 or prematurily leave the cadet program to even begin growing out my hair like, y'know, a girl.

Sorry for the somewhat uncomfortable topic!

You're not going to like hearing this, but its the truth...

You were born a male or a female. It is literally engrained in your DNA and nothing will ever change this. No amount of believing, funny dressing,  counseling, drug therapy and disfiguring surgery will ever change a man into a woman or vice versa. You are who you are and I'd suggest you work on finding out how to be happy with you and your life living in your own skin, as it were.

[lordmonar]

I'm at a loss for words Johnny.....

[stillamarine]

Well there went the civil conversation.

[Johnny Yuma]

I'm at a loss for words Johnny.....

I'm calling it as I've seen it.

At my employ, we've had several male employees decide they were actually women, 2 of them in my department. Then there's the ones I know of from within our circle of friends and acquaintances that were at all different stages from dressing female to the full "reassignment" surgery farce. Despite all their efforts very few of them ended up living happy lives and of all the ones I know of only 1 lived beyond 60 thanks to the suicides, victims of homicide at the hands of their lover, drug addiction, acute and long term complications from surgery, etc. All too often there are additional underlying issues going on that this doesn't fix.

Once he's 18, or 21, depending on the doctors, he can do what he wants to except violate CAP regs. However from everything I've seen this path hasn't been a happy one for many I've seen take it.   

[Garibaldi]

Someone please lock the thread before someone really goes off.

[LSThiker]

Despite all their efforts very few of them ended up living happy lives and of all the ones I know of only 1 lived beyond 60 thanks to the suicides, victims of homicide at the hands of their lover, drug addiction, acute and long term complications from surgery, etc.

Maybe because transgender persons are told things like this:

No amount of believing, funny dressing,  counseling, drug therapy and disfiguring surgery will ever change a man into a woman or vice versa. You are who you are and I'd suggest you work on finding out how to be happy with you and your life living in your own skin, as it were.

Now I am not transgender, but I remeber how hard it was dropping my christianity and accepting atheism. The first time I publically said it, I was beaten up by Christians. In following days, I received death threats. For years, I was a closet atheist And living an unhappy life. It was until I found support groups I finally became comfortable to publically say I was an atheist. Since that time, I have lived a more happy life.

[NIN]

It was an extreme interpretation held by this branch of Pentecostals.  The issue was brought up well before the event and was determined by legal at NHQ that the girls did not have to were pants, but did have to find the correct and matching material to make their skirts out of if they could not find a pre made skirt.

Wow. I'm stunned that NHQ would have come up with that particular solution, unless it was well coordinated thru the USAF side of the house.  its not like we can just go making major mods to the USAF-style uniforms on our own.

Imagine being on a base and having to explain yourself to the Base Commander or similar.  Falls under my "if it looks wrong, it is wrong" concept with the USAF uniforms and the USAF.   We might think its "right" but to big momma Blue, its not.

I saw this today, reminded me of the BDU skirt discussion.. LOL

[Eclipse]

It was an extreme interpretation held by this branch of Pentecostals.  The issue was brought up well before the event and was determined by legal at NHQ that the girls did not have to were pants, but did have to find the correct and matching material to make their skirts out of if they could not find a pre made skirt.

This was something you personally were involved in and / or saw, or something you "heard".

Sounds apocryphal to me, and well outside NHQ's authority.  As NIN says, good luck on a base or interacting with other military agencies.
Not to mention how would you inspect them as compared to their peers?  etc., etc.

[Storm Chaser]

It was an extreme interpretation held by this branch of Pentecostals.  The issue was brought up well before the event and was determined by legal at NHQ that the girls did not have to were pants, but did have to find the correct and matching material to make their skirts out of if they could not find a pre made skirt.

This was something you personally were involved in and / or saw, or something you "heard".

Sounds apocryphal to me, and well outside NHQ's authority.  As NIN says, good luck on a base or interacting with other military agencies.
Not to mention how would you inspect them as compared to their peers?  etc., etc.

+1. According to CAPM 39-1, only the CAP/CC can grant uniform waivers. And even then, he or she is restricted by the authority that CAP-USAF has over the AF-style uniform. One thing would be to grant a waiver for a cadet to wear the corporate uniform and another all together to modify the AF-style uniform without express authorization of CAP-USAF. Neither NHQ nor the CAP/CC have the authority to do the latter.

[a2capt]

Has it always been that way, that only the CAP/CC can grant uniform waivers?

...how far back was this, maybe it wasn't on the level all the way up, maybe it wasn't on a base and that's why someone might have bent a little to provide an opportunity for some cadets in a way that wasn't likely to cause any foundations to crumble, rather than shoving regulations at them?