TIGERSTRIKE DF Unit

[ES forever!]

Afternoon

Well we have just got back from an independent RF Lab who builds for the UAV program. We have tested the Tigerstirke and ELPER new and old and found that the sensitivity is about -120 dbm for the Elpers (on receive only, less on the df mode) and the Tigerstrike equals the ELPERs without all the tuning yet to be done on the antenna array, so we expect to be in the -125 dbm range.

Perhaps a little explanation of the philosophy would be in order, and why this is a pricey unit.

First I have had the privilege of doing ES all over the nation, and there are so a great deal of regional differences, hence the full function of the TigerStrike.

The two biggest differences in the TigerStrike that has been overlooked in this series of blogs is the 3 AXIS  DIGITAL COMPASS and built in Delorme HI Accuracy GPS chip.

As I have trained for 3 years at Blue beret I have seem the diverse training levels of out CAP ES folks, very few ever get to go to NESA, so the regional training and expectation are so different.

Therefore anything that creates a consistant reporting tool for the Ground teams and DF teams has to be valued differently than RDF unit.

The Digital Compass is an outstanding feature that is accurate to .1 degrees. Compare that to any handheld compass and the error rate of a manual interpretation of the needle. And no device except the TigerStrike has an angle plus or minus .1 degree  from your current location hence the GPS.

All these features are designed to create a consistant and incredibly accurate tool to assist in the location of the beacon.

Well enough for now, it is so exciting and rewarding to see it come together.

[es_g0d]

I can't wait to see it in action!  I've not kept it a secret that I'm impressed with the overall performance of the Little L-Per, but that's not to say its the end-all-be-all!

Reference to the UAV program, though, doesn't get me excited. 

I'm all for moving forward with technology; I'm hopeful for that next quantum leap!

[RiverAux]

I suppose I would really hesitate about putting any time or money into developing a new DF unit.  With the demise of 121.5 monitoring, the need for relatively long-range DFing from the ground is going to diminsh significantly.

Whereas it was relatively common to just send out a GT to work an ELT signal under the old system, even given the large search areas, I don't think that will be the case from now on.  We will either be given a pretty accurate 406 location or for the 121.5 signal missions we do get we will almost by definition have to send a plane out to narrow down the search area.  In either case your GT will probably only have to deal with short-range searches.  Not that those are always easy, but as mentioned you don't really need anything too complicated for many of them.

Leaving aside the long-range/short range discussion, the sheer drop in volume of ELT missions that CAP will be handling will mean that the demand for such a product is likely to be minimal.  Sure, over time the ancient L-Pers are going to need to be replaced so there will always be a certain amount of potential customers at any one time, but I just don't see how a workable business model could be developed. 

But, then again, I switched my major from business to something else pretty quickly...

[JoeTomasone]

I'm really trying to be objective here but am having difficulty understanding exactly what problems are being actually encountered in the field that are solved by these features.   Can you please elaborate?

the sensitivity is about -120 dbm for the Elpers (on receive only, less on the df mode) and the Tigerstrike equals the ELPERs without all the tuning yet to be done on the antenna array, so we expect to be in the -125 dbm range.

The Digital Compass is an outstanding feature that is accurate to .1 degrees. Compare that to any handheld compass and the error rate of a manual interpretation of the needle.

...And if you could elaborate on the reason for having the cellular "phone home" feature as well, that would be greatly appreciated.

Why should a CAP unit spend the extra money instead of an L-Per or a Sniffer?   For the price of the Tigerstrike, one could have about 10 Sniffer setups.   I really don't understand the benefit I'd be receiving by spending 10x the money.

[Flying Pig]

This is great.  CAPTalk at its finest. The customer (me) is the only person not complaining.

[Major Lord]

Robert, ahh, I thought you said the Squadron was making the purchase, I did not realize it was a personal purchase with private funds. My mistake. I will be delighted to hear that you have received your unit and are happy with it.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

This is getting silly.  My Sq. purchased it at my authorization as the Sq.CC.  There are private members in CAWG who have purchased this unit.  But its not up to me to identify them. I only submitted the order less than 2 weeks ago.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

What is with some of you people.  FlyingPig was trying to share some information with us about a new and possibly better df unit, which his squadron chose to purchase with their funds, and all you guys can do is start a witch hunt. 

Give FlyingPig time and he will test the unit and give you more information.  If there is a problem, I know him, and he will let us know that too.  I also know Lt.Col Miller and I can assure you he has only the best interest of CAP at heart.
So lets quit the mud throwing please.

[heliodoc]

I second MAJ Hough

We got some good folks out there testing newer equipment

YEP CAPe'ers "enuf" of yer mudslingin'

CAPer techno geeks........get working.... like these folks are AND then I MIGHT believe in this forum!!!!!

[heliodoc]

Critical examination should / could have been done years ago when CAP knew that 406 was coming down the pike.... that was approximately 8 years ago.  That in itself probably was enough CAP needed and then if CAP was capable, should have started the RFP process for newer and updated  equipment.

I find that the true folks that are serious about SAR and CAP's capability still are at the Sqdn level and are pretty prudent about CAP funds. 

Now is the time to back these folks and I am positive that FP and his folks will keep us aware of their findings... no use in them tipping their hand......

NOW begs the question, after all the R &D gets done, NATL HQ  needs to put these folks on the training syllabus brigade and MAYBE needs to look at putting a contact team out teaching this stuff and NO chirping about volunteer time!!!   The only volunteers that need the time off are Flying Pig and his merry band of gentlemen!!!

This is the stuff that is more important than 89 volumes of the "regulation" 39-1

[RiverAux]

While I believe I've advocated that CAP do some better testing on such equipment, given the reservations I expressed earlier in this thread, I can't get too excited about a need for CAP to do a lot of work testing a new generation of these things. 

And just because the 406 is going to be standard, why is there a need to get new equipment for it?  I'm not a techno geek on this stuff, but as long as a 121.5 signal is transmitting, what do we really need new stuff for? 

By the way helio, we have been equiping our planes with the Becker system which is really quite fine, so its not like we've been totally static.  So long as the old baby blue L-per works, it will get the job done on the ground. 

[CAPSGT]

WARNING:  This thread got way off track into a series of personal attacks, which have been removed.  As a reminder, personal attacks are a violation of the Membership Code of Conduct.

Please feel free to continue with an academic discussion of this item.

[ES forever!]

thank you for your professional approach to this.

[JoeTomasone]

Critical examination should / could have been done years ago when CAP knew that 406 was coming down the pike.... that was approximately 8 years ago.  That in itself probably was enough CAP needed and then if CAP was capable, should have started the RFP process for newer and updated  equipment.

Actually, no new equipment is needed.   406s either have GPS-based lat/long reported or have such good Doppler-based merges that DFing the 406 signal is pretty moot.    We are doing "last mile" homing on the 121.5 transmitter that they all have jast as we have been doing all along with 121.5 only ELTs.

The real question is: Is there something better than the L-Per that units can switch to as they either replace old/dead units or add new equipment?     That's where the Tigerstrike, Sniffer, and other units come into play.

I've been convinced both from a theoretical and practical standpoint that the Sniffer is the way to go from a price/performance perspective.   That said, I'd be willing to evaluate the Tigerstrike, but I still haven't been convinced that whatever performance it brings to the table (and I'm still waiting on answers from a few posts up) is worth the substantial cost. 

NOW begs the question, after all the R &D gets done, NATL HQ  needs to put these folks on the training syllabus brigade and MAYBE needs to look at putting a contact team out teaching this stuff and NO chirping about volunteer time!!! 

I'm actually giving the initial presentation of an updated UDF Powerpoint that I've come up with this evening for one of my Squadrons.   It will cover UDF from a theory perspective, a mission perspective (what you actually need to do on a mission from the alert through the 108), and an equipment perspective, covering the L-Per, Pro-Find, and the Sniffer.

[a2capt]

I never said I tested it, however .. you were at our unit a couple times with it, there were a few missions in the  southwestern Riverside county area about that time, too- and we "committed" to one and never heard a word back. Turned into vaporware.

Meanwhile L-Tronics was rumored to be making a new age device as well, and about the most different thing was theirs did come out.

My memory seems to recall opinions of the Tiger Strike back then about the same kind of opinions I was hearing on the new L-Per.

the die hards swear by the sticks, the new people swear at the sticks.

So since this obviously is not the same unit that was around the area in 2005 or so, and is rather something different, real reviews would be nice to see..  Has anything other than animated frames been posted?

It's purported that several people have them, are these the current units or the remainder of 2005?

That would imply that something was available to actually photograph and put up realistic product information on the site.

[BigMojo]

I'm actually giving the initial presentation of an updated UDF Powerpoint that I've come up with this evening for one of my Squadrons.   It will cover UDF from a theory perspective, a mission perspective (what you actually need to do on a mission from the alert through the 108), and an equipment perspective, covering the L-Per, Pro-Find, and the Sniffer.

Can you send me a copy of that Joe?

[resq55]

Perhaps I can shed some light on some of the topics here.
1.  The number of ELT's will not change, just the method of tracking them down.
2.  406 Doppler accuracy is no better than the old SARSAT.
3.  Most airplane owners in the US will not install 406.
4.  Unless the gps in the aircraft or the 406 has a gps all we know is a suspected location.
5.  The 406 beacon still is tracked on 121.5 however now at a much lower power, therefore the need for more sensitive receiver and accurate direction capability. (Try your MAG compass at night in the rain oops don't forget variation correction) And make sure you know where your at on that map.
6. This unit has a lot of options that you might not need in FL, (you can see from Tampa to Miami) but for those guys who live in the mountains, being able to send the data back to the IC might be a good idea.)
I have one of these units the company has given me to test, I will be going out to as many California units as I can to let them play with it and tell me how they like it.

[Major Lord]

Do you have a photo of the Tigerstrike unit?

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

http://www.fsems.com/fsproducts.html

[Major Lord]

I could only find the animation. Is there a link to a photo? I know that Murray Craig said he would be posting them a couple of days ago, but I can't find them. Is there another link?

Major Lord