Radiological Monitoring

[MIKE]

Looks like MIMS has started crediting anyone with GES with supervised trainee status for ARM and GRM.  Weird.

[Pylon]

Yeah, I noticed that too.  That seems pretty arbitrary.   

[SarDragon]

Where are you seeing this? I just went into my record and don't see an entry there.

[pixelwonk]

Where are you seeing this? I just went into my record and don't see an entry there.

Look at your 101 card online

[MIKE]

Where are you seeing this? I just went into my record and don't see an entry there.

Looks like they took it off.  It was listed on Personal CAPF 101 the other day.  

[BlueLakes1]

I had qualified as an RM, the other day my 101 showed with RM and trainee for GRM and ARM. Next day, the RM was gone, GRM permanent and ARM gone. Don't know what the change is about.

[desert rat]

What is the actual training required for a ground radiological monitoring.  I can't find a training task guide anywhere, or what outside CAP training suffices for thequalification.

[mmouw]

My AF job does RM. I also took the FEMA course and if your state has training then that is also required. There isn't a whole lot of us out there. I decided to do it to help make us more marketable for missions. I will say that if I am ever called on to perform this mission, a whole lot of things have gone wrong. State and Federal personnel will be put in first.

[Eclipse]

What is the actual training required for a ground radiological monitoring.  I can't find a training task guide anywhere, or what outside CAP training suffices for thequalification.

CAP does not have a nationwide radiological monitoring program, though some wings do support local agencies with appropriately trained personnel. Your wing will need to recognize your qualifications and have an existing program before utilization and award of a rating...

...The Aerial Radiological Monitoring Patch is awarded for completion of any state or FEMA radiological monitoring course. Individuals who complete such a course should provide a copy of the completion certificate to your professional development or personnel officer for inclusion in your records. The patch may be ordered from CAPMart/Vanguard Item 0839 AERIAL RADIOLOGICAL PATCH.

http://tinyurl.com/2b8586

[DNall]

I don't think they're so much looking for emerency response as regular monitoring.

[ThorntonOL]

Which FEMA courses are required?

[ThorntonOL]

also, how do you find out if your state requires addtional training?

[Short Field]

I don't believe there is a on-line FEMA course covering Radiological Monitoring. 

[Frenchie]

Years ago I attended a Radiological Monitoring training class (not through CAP).  The last day of the class included an easter egg hunt for some radioactive cobalt using a radiation dosimeter.  Big fun.

[CAPLAW]

I took the state course in Florida, so does this mean I get to wear the patch? I was hrough the state f radation control dept.

[ThorntonOL]

I was yahooing it just now and it looks like Texas wing had it at one time. (RM program)
You needed IS 3 and 301 plus a couple of other requirements including GT, GES, and one RM mission or training to get qualified.

[arajca]

Your best source for information is you wing director of operations. Only a couple of wings have a radmon program.

I've completed the ARM course twice (once in IL as a cadet, once in OK as a senior). I am currently a hazmat technician with a specialty of radioactive materials.

[wingnut55]

In the 1950s and 1960s CAp was one of the first responders for aerial radiological monitoring, ground crews were trained to decontaminate the aircraft and equipment. I remember it clearly because my dad was a CAP pilot and a Civil defense officer, as a federal employee they had a lot of reading material.

The philosophy in the 1960s was changed to MAD mutual assured distruction so they gave up for CAP or just about anyone trying to survive (Thankyou Government ). but with terrorist threats and the possibility of small yield weapons The Feds need our help again. but we have many Ignorant uneducated people who think monitoring means flying through a mushroom cloud, What is need is ways to monitor the very small alpha and bets particles and their movement in the upper atmosphere. With UAVs that will be the best way. because with no one on board we need little protection. yet we do need people to take the FEMA classes to become familiarized AND EDUCATED. A few years ago the Homeland security created special Guard units posted around the States. These guys have the completely sealed self contained breathing devices filters on the Aircraft. I did some of it in the Air Force, radiation has not changed much, but we sure are lacking in radiological protection in the USA,.

indeed some states still use CAP in there MOU for radiological help, but for ust to do it we need to be back under the guidance of homeland security on those missions, another good mission for the Archer as a instrument platform.

[lordmonar]

DOE maintains a fleet of aircraft and personell for the aerial monitoring.

[arajca]

Alpha particles are relatively large and are stopped by a piece of paper. The problem with alpha particles is if they are inhaled/injested. The common radmon equipment will not detect alpha particles.

Beta are a little more dangerous, but still an easily delt with threat. Most common radmon equipment can detect beta and some can even measure it.

When I went through ARM, the premise was to find the boundries of a radioactive area.

Nowadays, despite what some seniors think, cadets most likely will not be utilized in a radmon role. Not because they are uncapable, but because no parents will let them. I sat in on a GRM class where the instructor flat out said he'd take a trained cadet over an untrained senior for a GRM mission any day. He refused to consider that the trained cadet most likely would not be available due to parental involvement.

[isuhawkeye]

I sat in on a GRM class where the instructor flat out said he'd take a trained cadet over an untrained senior for a GRM mission any day. He refused to consider that the trained cadet most likely would not be available due to parental involvement.

These comments are all very interesting.  I think I will add my $.02

1.  As a person who works very closely with glow worms I can tell you that no instructor that has any real experience would put a person of cild bearing years into a situation where an older person who has had their children is available. 

2.  In my state the nuclear power plants are the big radiation threat.  In the event of a release they call a lot of the shots.  This is because they are responsible for the clean up, and the payment of bills during a release.  A part of this expense is purchasing any and all responders equipment that has been contaminated.  They really dont want to buy a glass cockpit 182, so dont expect a rad mon mission flight any where near a hot zone. 

Thats just my experience

Tags - MIKE

[♠SARKID♠]

A tidbit of trivia - my squadron still has a CAP Piper Cub called "Lil' Poof" that was used to monitor radiation levels in nuclear bomb tests.  Its at a safe radioactive level nowadays...

[wingnut55]

actually radiation exposure is related to age, so we should recruit all the CAP pilots over 70 because they can be exposed to higher levels of radiation. They are going to select "older Astronauts" to go to mars because they too can be exposed to higher levels of radiation, it is about absorption levels and life spans.

By the way there was over 220 atomic bomb test in the united states , and CAP was used numerous times to assist. Come to think of it the CIA gave lots of LSD to their field Agents to help them "resist" Communist interrogation.

[♠SARKID♠]

By the way there was over 220 atomic bomb test in the united states , and CAP was used numerous times to assist. Come to think of it the CIA gave lots of LSD to their field Agents to help them "resist" Communist interrogation.

You people need to stop giving me ideas...
http://resdon111.googlepages.com/CAPFLightdots.swf

[SarDragon]

Turkal, you are one sick puppy. 

[mikeylikey]

By the way there was over 220 atomic bomb test in the united states , and CAP was used numerous times to assist. Come to think of it the CIA gave lots of LSD to their field Agents to help them "resist" Communist interrogation.

You people need to stop giving me ideas...
http://resdon111.googlepages.com/CAPFLightdots.swf

ahhh.....with music no less!

[jimmydeanno]

^if you play it backwards it says "Seniors are evil" 

[wingnut55]

Yes

But what a lot of people don't know Mr. Bush Senior was in the CIA in the 1960s, and LSD does DNA damage, so you might have a Baby that is well . . . Loopy

[JayT]

The ARM patch looks really good on my uniform right now.

[mikeylikey]

Yes

But what a lot of people don't know Mr. Bush Senior was in the CIA in the 1960s, and LSD does DNA damage, so you might have a Baby that is well . . . Loopy

And....the PRES and his BRO were born in the 40's.  We know your a DEM!   

[ThorntonOL]

What equipment would you need for Radiological monitoring?
I'm currently lookingat getting a geiger counter or two and I plan on using them if not for CAP RM I'll probably use it rock hunting. Still need to know if waht equipment I'll need.
In case of...

[PHall]

All of the equipment we used before was provided by Civil Defense.
About the only maintenance the equipment needed other then fresh batteries was a yearly calibration.
I have no idea who would calibrate that stuff today.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, I don't know that much about "Death Rays," so can some of you trained guys help me out?

Questions:

1.  Assume intel has established that a nuke or "Dirty" bomb has entered the United States in the hands of a terrorist.  We can assume he is taking it to a high-impact target, and that he is not doing so in the service of the United States.  Can the available technology:

--  Enable detection of the unexploded bomb from a safe altitude by a properly-equipped aircraft flying over the freeway?

--  Assuming that the answer to the above question is affirmative, can the technology pinpoint with reasonable accuracy the location of the threat? Enough accuracy to direct ground reaction forces to the general area to set up a roadblock would be fine.

2.  Would exposure to the residual radiation of an unexploded device create a health hazard?

[BillB]

John,  Chances are the nuclear material from a dirty bomb is even partically shielded (in a metal case for example) it would not be detected from aircraft flying at 1000 feet AGL. (the altitude specified in CAP Radiological Aerial Monitoring)Even nuclear power plants barely give a reading in counters  CAP would be useless in locating such nuclear material. And I'm not sure how many local Emergency Management agencies even have geiger counters for aerial or ground teams anymore. The military and DHS has better equipment than would be available to CAP. As to a health hazard, it would depend on how the bomb was shipped, it's container would be determining factor.

[RiverAux]

DNall had looked into that and had thought that he had found some equipment that would work well for just this sort of thing.  I don't recall the details. 

[Short Field]

A minimal amount of sheilding and being indoors would make a "dirty bomb" exceptionally hard to find.    For CAP Radiological Monitoring, think in terms of HAZMAT - as in a semi-truck jackknifed and dumped its load of medical radiological waste on a highway and into a steam.  A big mission could be tracking all the vehciles that rolled through the mess.

[ThorntonOL]

So waht equipment did you use that Civil Defense provided? What would be good equipment for today?

[PHall]

So waht equipment did you use that Civil Defense provided? What would be good equipment for today?

Geiger Counters, both ground and aircraft versions.

The military probably has equipment we can use, but that equipment needs to be maintained.
And I don't think the local radio shop at the airport would be up to the task.

[JohnKachenmeister]

John,  Chances are the nuclear material from a dirty bomb is even partically shielded (in a metal case for example) it would not be detected from aircraft flying at 1000 feet AGL. (the altitude specified in CAP Radiological Aerial Monitoring)Even nuclear power plants barely give a reading in counters  CAP would be useless in locating such nuclear material. And I'm not sure how many local Emergency Management agencies even have geiger counters for aerial or ground teams anymore. The military and DHS has better equipment than would be available to CAP. As to a health hazard, it would depend on how the bomb was shipped, it's container would be determining factor.

Well, my thinking was that if there is some equipment that can detect radiation from a threat weapon from the air, the part of the Air Force that has 575 light observation airplanes strategically pre-positioned over the entire United States probably should have access to such equipment, but there I go again, not thinking like a good corporate civilian.

More better we count birds.  That will get us on the cover of Volunteer!

[Major Carrales]

I think the modern Ground Radiological Monitoring application would best be as one member of a Ground Team that monitored the site (if warranted) for Radiation.

No CAP ground team should ever be sent into a HOT ZONE, however, if a CAP team were deployed to an area and it was to be hot, then I would think having the ability to know that would help.

Still, I can only imagine far outlandish senarios where that would be the case. 

Maybe I should save up for a detector of some type....hummmmm?

[RiverAux]

As the "SAFETY ABOVE ALL" folks continue to triumph over those who actually want to get something done, I'm incredibly surprised that CAP still has any provisions at all for radiological monitoring. 

[JayT]

John,  Chances are the nuclear material from a dirty bomb is even partically shielded (in a metal case for example) it would not be detected from aircraft flying at 1000 feet AGL. (the altitude specified in CAP Radiological Aerial Monitoring)Even nuclear power plants barely give a reading in counters  CAP would be useless in locating such nuclear material. And I'm not sure how many local Emergency Management agencies even have geiger counters for aerial or ground teams anymore. The military and DHS has better equipment than would be available to CAP. As to a health hazard, it would depend on how the bomb was shipped, it's container would be determining factor.

Well, my thinking was that if there is some equipment that can detect radiation from a threat weapon from the air, the part of the Air Force that has 575 light observation airplanes strategically pre-positioned over the entire United States probably should have access to such equipment, but there I go again, not thinking like a good corporate civilian.

More better we count birds.  That will get us on the cover of Volunteer!

Wow, Major. I think we agree on something.

[Hawk200]

The ARM patch looks really good on my uniform right now.

And how exactly did you manage to recieve it? It ceased being awarded in about '96, IIRC. Those that were authorized it were permitted to continue to wearing until the latest reg dropped it.

Just because something exists and it seems related to courses you took doesn't mean you can just wear it.

Edit: Never mind. Just noticed that it's in the current 39-1. Just make sure you've been awarded it properly. That means having a Form 2A in your file with proper signature, and the necessary appropriate documentation covering it. I don't think just taking an online course qualifies though.

[LittleIronPilot]

I sure would LOVE to get ARM/GRM training, but man I think finding a unicorn would be easier!

[KyCAP]

Hate to burst anyones bubble, but the current word from CAP-USAF is no AFAM coverage for Radiological Monitoring missions or TRAINING related to that  and that we should NOT be telling our customers that we can perform that service.

[ThorntonOL]

AFAM coverage?

[arajca]

AFAM = Air Force Assigned Mission. Missions that come with federal funding and insurance.

[SAR-EMT1]

In other words: the USAF does not support the use of CAP for RadMon any longer.

...

I'm off to count birds.

[ThorntonOL]

Then they should amend REG 60-3, chapter 1 section (?) 28 and chapter 2 section 2-3 af.
And also would have to shutdown any currently running ARM and GRM programs in CAP.
Or is the MOU with another agency? Does the Air Force have a say with every MOU?
Confused as I'm only starting in the ES side of CAP and don't want any one asking if we can do this and finding out that it's not allowed while regs say it is currently. (with permission of course from Wing.) (or is it Region?)

Can someone at least explain the history of the this spevialized mission as I'm confused as why we have it and why we really can't do much with it currently as i'm picking up on a few pieces but am conpletely befuddled.

[SAR-EMT1]

Gladly.

CAP first got this mission through working with the USAF and Office of Civil Defense  (FEMA's grandpa) as just one of several missions we would assume in the event the cold war got hot.
The initial idea was that when we went to war with the rompin stompin russians and they dropped a bomb or ICBM on one of our bases or cities that CAP would have the mission of flying a perimeter to determine the extent of the radiation cloud, while CAP ground teams would bolster CD teams on the ground.
This data would then be forwarded to the govenment.
It was a standard mission profile til the end of the Regan Presidency. Once the Wall came down, so did the expectation for CAP to conduct RadMon activities.

Today, with DHS and Congress on a mission to find cheap resources, they are casting a glace in our direction. Prblem is, while Dept of Energy National Response team, has Hueys with equipment capable of picking up a dirty bomb or something like that, the equipment we trained with is nowhere near that precise. (See above) ... and I kinda doubt we (CAP) still possesses the old equipment. -- I know that in some cases, the issuing bodies reclaimed alot of the material.

I have heard that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, that CAP staged some RADMON planes to cover the eastern seaboard. Don't have confirmation though.

Hope the info helps you Thornton

[ThorntonOL]

Ok that answers some of my post questions. (actually most of them.)

[LittleIronPilot]

If the mission no longer exists, and we no longer will be allowed to train in it, than it needs to be removed from the 60-3 and the SQTR's and eServices entries should go away.

[ThorntonOL]

I think there is no SQTR's for GRM and ARM, if there is let me know where to find them.

[Short Field]

They are there in the SQTRs section.  The tasks required are complete GES and:

For ARM:  Satisfactorily complete approved Airborne Radiological Monitoring training

or for GRM:  Satisfactorily complete approved Radiological Monitoring training

These seem to fall into the same category as the Mountain Flying Clinic which requires MP status and "Satisfactory completion of Mountain Flying Clinic".

Doesn't really establish any detailed requirements, but if you have, you can get it loaded.  What good it does, I really don't know.

[ThorntonOL]

were exactly did you find the SQTRS?
I didn't see them of course i might have missed them and i'm going to check again.

[Short Field]

eServices - Ops Quals - SQTR Entry - pull down menu under Achievements.

[Major Carrales]

When I first joined CAP in 1998, there were ARM people in the Wing that flew missions near a reactor at Bay City, Texas some 90 miles southwest of Houston.  I am unsure if these stories were then recent, but it was done as late as say 1995?

[BillB]

A member owned aircraft had an A&P cut a 1 1/4 hole in the bottom of his aircraft and a rubber grommet around the hole. This just required a note in the mainenance log and inspected annually to insure no cracks radiated from the hole. A Geiger counter head fit nicely in the hole connected by cable to the counter. This made it easy to fly a radiological survey pattern with the observer making notes on readings and locations. This was in the late 1990's and both the pilot and observer were ARM qualified.

[ThorntonOL]

Found them, took a bit of navigation.
So with all the plants haveing their own people who are qualifed, what are those few missions CAP still runs or ran until recently? (Yeah, I know GRM or ARM but exactly what was it we (CAP)were suppose to be looking for? possible leaks?)

[SAR-EMT1]

Nah, just checking that the background radiation level around the plants were in the norms. Remember our gear wasn't /isn't very precise. ALso remember that CAP no longer trains for this mission. As the SQTRs show, to be trained you have to go through an outside agency in your state and the mission would usually be with that same agency. (If the program exsists at all where you are)

[ThorntonOL]

Thanks for the info, just noticed while reading the Disaster Relief Ribbon thread, some of the requirements for the ribbon are other than the practice missions are a bunch of courses.
A small but somewhat sizeable portion is on Radiological monitoring. I understand this is required for the disaster relief ribbon but why are we taking them if we aren't even allowed to do these mission with AF coverage? Are we covered by the requesting agency or am I conpletely befuddled with this other topic?
Just trying to understand something in the ES field other than what a ground team and leader are/is.

[Short Field]

^^^ They are not required for the Disaster Relief Ribbon.  In addition to the five sorties, you must complete two of seven other requirements.    The radiological related requirements comprise three of the seven requirements.  So they are options, not requirements.

My understanding of the radiological monitoring ops quals is that if there is a local requirment, then the agency needing the support will provide the training.

[ThorntonOL]

I apologize.
I misread it and after reading it, I saw where I goofed up.
Thanks for setting me straight.

[KyCAP]

Thornton - I think that perhaps you have a valid point though.  Maybe that language for RM should be redacted/modified with something else more in scope with our mission for DR these days that Red Cross / FEMA offers.. Like Rather than RM that should be FEMA ICS 19000 (How to run Katrina level Disaster) or something...

[SAR-EMT1]

FEMA ICS 19000 (How to run Katrina level Disaster) or something...

LOL...

[ThorntonOL]

I've been a bit bored lately and have some extra time and have completed some FEMA courses relating to our topic and am wondering how often and where do the residence course like is 300 and is 400 happen and how often? Am also looking to get the Radiological monitoring stuff done outside of CAP and am wondering from those with expereince and previos training, who is better to go through FEMA, Red Cross, or someone else?

[arajca]

It's ICS300 and ICS400, not is 300/400. As for where and when, contact your local emergency manager or fire dept. They usually get the information.

For the radiological monitoring training, contact your state office of emergency management. They'll know if such a thing is offered in your state and if there is a possibility of yuor qualifying to take it.

[NavLT]

ICS 300 and ICS400 are held by the states via Fema.  In NY the Local Emergency Managment office contacts SEMO (State Emergency Managment) and asks to teach a class (assuming they have a qualified Instructor) and Semo sends the books, tests...etc.

[NCR HSO]

I received the following from John Desmarais, at NHQ - a while back.

"The Air Force has directed that we remove the radiological monitoring qualifications from the ES program in the next revision to CAPR 60-3, so those qualifications will not be around much longer.  Additionally, the current guidance is that the training be both knowledge and practical based with experience using the equipment in the training, and the IS course does not provide that."

I hope that helps.

Take care!

Chris

[ThorntonOL]

I should clarify my postion on the RM training. I was looking for information on who to contact and see if I can take the course or not. Wasn't going to apply it to CAP as it's been mentioned that they are getting rid of that mission. (?)

[SAR-EMT1]

Best bet is to contact your local Fire Dept and have them put you in touch with the state Emergency Management Agency.

[lordmonar]

Any USAF base also could give you this training.  The CE readiness flight is in charge of what used to be the disaster control group (Don't know what they are called now).  Years ago I was on their support team....and we got radiological monitoring as well as shelter monitoring, chem warfare decon and a lot of other cool skills.

So...they have both the knowledge and the tools to do hands on training.  However.....if CAP and the USAF wants us to drop that as one of our missions I don't see the point.

[heliodoc]

^

Maybe it is the CAP, Inc stuff rather than being a true gov agency, skill levels, not being responders in the TRUE sense like police and fire who are going to be tasked with this type of operation, insurance FECA and FTCA in the hot zone, especially that in a hot zone , has that been checked yet??

CAP is still a great organization BUT it is not trained to all of these things except support in floods, SDIS missions,  SAR, etc.

But if the AF and CAP are getting out of it after all these years of being around RM, well that is another thing with their intestinal fortitude in assiting in response issues.   We, in that case, will be nothing but support personnel

But if you can get the training , Great!  It will beunder someone else's auspices.............

[DNall]

DNall had looked into that and had thought that he had found some equipment that would work well for just this sort of thing.  I don't recall the details. 

We had a big long conversation on this a few months back. There are more modern light weight sensors with much better detection properties.

DHS was a few years ago looking at deploying a whole bunch of UAVs, these were developed at Sandia for use on those platforms.

What we looked at was a package of two external hard mount sensors, that IIRC ran under 25lbs including the laptop they plus into. It could do both rad & chemical detection, work to distinguish from natural background rad, and graphic mapping via the GPS. What you got in the air was a turn the hell around alarm & some real general info. The real hardcore computer work happened on the ground. You could in theory detect a device from the air & narrow it to some kind of smaller area (very much like ELT search in fact), but of course it is very contingent on what kind of shielding they got the package in.

Application wise, we talked about:

• Civilian HAZMAT assist
• traditional radmon
• route survey - meaning look for moving bombs
• detailed mapping - meaning add detail to the sat imaging for background rad, so in a look for bomb situation you can better distinguish what doesn't belong
• some inland versions of the the environmental monitoring kind of stuff the CG does in the water
• etc... a couple other bright ideas I don't happen to recall off hand

It's a good addition to our airframes & and about dummy proof for the operators. The cost is pretty low & of course would be borne by DHS, deployed under OPCON of 1AF/Northcom (which is who we work for on all AFAMs anyway).