CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[Short Field]

[Under Unified Command, one of the ICs may be designated as a "spokesperson".  That is the person that communicates to the Command and General Staff.  But, that person does not make independent command decisions and is just a point of contact. 

I specifically asked that question in IC 400 as it seemed to violate one of the major principles of war - unity of command.   IAW the instructor, the inside the tent" ICs are making decisions and coming to agreement on how their assets work together.  The cooperation takes care of the jurisdictional issues and ensures their assets are properly used.  However to the outside world and to the Command and General Staff, there is only ONE Incident Commander.  It only requires professionals working together to accomplish a mission to make this happen.

The point on the Fossett search is that while they may call it a Unified Command, Col Dion, the Nevada Wing Commander, was not in charge of the Command and General Staff and CAP was not receiving all the thousands of leads that were being called in.  CAP basically functioned as one of several Operations Branches in the search.

[Short Field]

The entire state is not mountainous.
Is the no night flight restriction blanketed through the entire state, or is it s game time call by an IC???
The report makes it look like this wing does no night missions at all

Nevada CAP flys at night - they even had a night ELT FIND this year.   While the entire state is not mountainous, you are not going to fly anywhere without between, over, or around the mountains.  At night they really do have a tendency to disappear - all you can see are the stars above them - which doesn't do a lot to outline them.   You can't see the ground and you can't see the granite clouds.  A moonless night basically puts you in IFR conditions.

[RiverAux]

If I had a missing airplane whose flight path was known, I wouldn't hesitate in sending out a plane at night to do a route search that first night -- on the off chance that a fire could be seen or something like that.  But, in a situation like this with no known route, a night search the first night would be pointless absent an ELT signal. 

The point on the Fossett search is that while they may call it a Unified Command, Col Dion, the Nevada Wing Commander, was not in charge of the Command and General Staff and CAP was not receiving all the thousands of leads that were being called in.  CAP basically functioned as one of several Operations Branches in the search.

Then the DEM doesn't know what the heck a Unified Command is or how it is supposed to work.   Given the comments elsewhere in the audit that no one really knew what areas were being searched, I'm not very surprised. 

[Short Field]

Then the DEM doesn't know what the heck a Unified Command is or how it is supposed to work.    

Yep................................

[Flying Pig]

The entire state is not mountainous.
Is the no night flight restriction blanketed through the entire state, or is it s game time call by an IC???
The report makes it look like this wing does no night missions at all

Nevada CAP flys at night - they even had a night ELT FIND this year.   While the entire state is not mountainous, you are not going to fly anywhere without between, over, or around the mountains.  At night they really do have a tendency to disappear - all you can see are the stars above them - which doesn't do a lot to outline them.   You can't see the ground and you can't see the granite clouds.  A moonless night basically puts you in IFR conditions.

A moonless night flying though or over the Ownes Valley where the Fossett search took place is just asking for trouble with 14,000 ft peaks on one side and Death Valley on the other side.  Aside from the military, Fresno Sheriff is the only agency trained and equipped in Central CA to fly into the Sierras at night, and Inyo and Mono Counties do not have air units.  And we do it VERY sparingly.  So it doesn't surprise me that CAP opted not to do it.  And I mention that because the search bordered and partly extended into Fresno County.

[lordmonar]

Then the DEM doesn't know what the heck a Unified Command is or how it is supposed to work.    

Yep................................

How many times do we have to say that?

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ You can say THAT again!   

[heliodoc]

I am a FNG recently to captalk and returning 25 yrs later..............

I was NOT at the FOSSETT search and was not privy to all....

CAP ought to be very careful how they address DEM's and Emergency Managers in general.

Some of these folks are volunteers, paid. shared responsibilities such as Veterans Service folks working 4 hours on one thing and 4 hours as EM due to FUNDING..  Some of these folks do or don't have degrees in EM.  ALOT of Emergency Managers are Sheriff's Departments, where the Sheriff IS the EM .  In larger cities, there are dedicated EM's.

For CAP'ers to be critical of EM's,  CAP OUGHT to take a deep look at itself before casting stones.  CAP had better serve itself better than it has in getting a real sitdown with these folks.  SOMETIMES they have the direct dial to AFRCC when requesting resources for us as CAP'ers to play.  We all also better get more involved with these players and have better SQTR system, better training than just the online stuff, better instructors who attend all "the good stuff" and never return it it to the CAP Wing or Sqdn.

The EM has a hard enough job with the paid forces at hand and then for CAP to to do the "DEM doesn't know what the heck Unified Command is or how it is supposed to work." is pure CAP conjecture and we do not even know the true background of the EM.  Didi he/she just start??  30 yr complacent on the trough guv employee??   A current CAP member holding an EM gig and thinking CAP experience is the trump card in allllllll things disaster??

You guys need a day in the trenches and not at some mission base and in C182's thinking you have ALL the mission answers.  CAP is corporation NOT a guv agency. Maybe that's why we as CAP is not on the leading edge of getting ALL those prime missions.  We are a corporation, NOT an agency and just maybe, to some guv lawyers at DHS and the reasons why GAO is doing all that research on our capabilities on how we would be more "cost effective" and available may just have to do how we are designated....

If CAP wants to be recognized, maybe we have to get our rooms in order.  Corporation rather than govt agency, has different meanings.  I have heard the negative aspects from EM's about CAP and I am current member.  Doesn' offend me.... makes me more aware on how we HAVE to improve our standing in the community and criticicizing EM's doesn't get it on this forum

OUT HERE

[JohnKachenmeister]

Doc:

What was the point of your post?  That EM guys know more than us poor, dumb CAP folk?  Or that some EM types are incompetent but we shouldn't say so because we're also incompetent?

Your post seems to go both ways.

I get a little frustrated with civilians generally in disasters.  Many are more concerned with protecting their little political empires than in accomplishing the mission.  Many I have seen over the years ARE, in fact, incompetent boobs who were appointed by an elected relative, and they make decisions that cost ordinary citizens their lives.

I'm not making this reference just as a longtime CAP officer, but also as a longtime Army officer that served in the Guard long enough to see a lot of bumbling among civilians.  Are you saying that we should call a spade a heart?

IF there were disconnects inside the tent at the Fossett search, we should discuss them.  If the DEM was someone who felt that the organization with the most institutional experience with searches for missing aircraft was not to be given the clues that were available, then the earlier posters are right... He couldn't tell a Unified Command if one bit him on the leg.

And... when the CAP is called into the service of the United States Government, we are not acting as a corporation, but in fact as an element of the Air Force.  The corporation is simply a mechanism to allow us to serve states and local communities by allowing us to enter into contracts to provide services.

[heliodoc]

Sorry to offend Major K
I too spent twenty one yrs in the Guard as an E6 and certainly did not know everything.

Saw a lot of not so smart officers in that organization and as I addressed I was not there nor was privy to the mission

Incompetent boobs?? Sure.  But not all of em.  When you have uphill battles within government you work for, the community you live in, and agencies / organizations who THINK they have a handle on everything--- I begin to wonder.

Did not see any public AAR's somewhat like llis.gov or Lessons Learned like the wildfire sites SO I personally do know or have any answers

But sure luv the buttchewing that I got for looking at it from my little world --- surely  not wordly like you guys-------------------

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ You didn't "Offend" me.  That is hard to do, unless you make fun of my dog.  I just did not understand what your point was.

I was not on the Fossett search.  I don't know what happened in the tent, and I don't know why CAP was not the lead federal agency in the search.  If there were command and control problems, I'd like to know about them.  That knowledge gives me a "Heads up" when dealing with local officials in my own Wing.

Examples:

On that search in Oregon for that Asian family that got lost on some back roads... the county sheriff refused to request CAP assistance because "The terrain is not conducive to a search by fixed wing aircraft."  How did he, a non-pilot, decide that terrain characterized by rolling hills to a maximum elevation of 2000 feet msl is too rough for fixed wing?  I Google-earthed it, and I have flown over tougher terrain to go to lunch.  CAP could have found that car inside a day.  Instead, he listened to a commercial helicopter pilot that was charging the family top dollar to do the search.  Result:  1 dead breadwinner.  Good work, Sheriff!

Back in the 90's there was some flooding, and my Guard battalion was called out.  As MP's we had a peripheral role in controlling the evacuation, and keeping people who had no business there away from the disaster area.  I started getting taskings that should have gone to the Engineer brigade.  I kept calling the command post and kept getting the same response..."You have your tasking, Major, get it done."  I would have, but an MP battalion does not have any dozers and graders.  I called the Engineer Bde, and they were sitting on their posteriors waiting for orders to move from their armory.  They were not getting the taskings intended for them.  I went to the CP personally to unscrew the situation.  That's when I discovered that the county had appointed some woman with zero EM experience as the emergency manager.  She was alternately crying, and yelling at people to do things that they clearly had no capability to do.  Rather than confront the hysterical little girl, I took the Engr. taskings and passed them along myself to the Engr. Bde, and things got done in spite of the "Leadership."

And... do I have to even mention the cluster that was Katrina?

We HAVE to discuss failures.  Our own and those of others. 

[RiverAux]

To be clear, it was the independent audit that highlighted command and control problems at the mission base and other issues involving DEM. 

Now, I don't discount the possibility that DEM was misquoted in the report and that they did not say that a Unified Command was set up.  However, if they did say that there was a Unified Command, then the experience of the CAP members who were on the ground seems to demonstrate that they weren't running it as a Unified Command is suposed to be run.  That doesn't necessarily mean they are incompetent, just that they have an imperfect grasp of higher level ICS training.  They certainly wouldn't be alone in that -- I think the majority of CAP ICs probably couldn't describe how Unified Command is supposed to work either -- we're just now starting to require our folks to get trained in that. 

[Short Field]

I was on the Fossett search - both aircrew and mission base. 

I don't believe there are many searches that grow as fast and as large as the Fossett search grew and even fewer with a greater number of strong personalities involved.  The DEM had a heck of a job dealing with the multiple agencies and private groups involved in the search.  IIRC, I heard he was relatively new and had little experience with ICS.  Cmd & Control was not screwed up, but it did have growing pains.  I do know that Nevada is taking major steps to improve the coordination between the agencies in a major incident.

The main issue in the audit report had to do with who authorized the use and continued use of expensive assets and who failed to keep track of the costs.   The clue log was just part of the growing pains - plus the extremely large number of clues called in by people using Google Earth - and images taken prior to the search starting. 

A Unified Command does not mean that each separate IC has people working in all the ICS Branches and Sections.   CAP basically functioned as a Air Branch with a few notable exceptions like Lt Col Cindy Ryan.  CAP's biggest problem was finding enough people to man the mission bases after the first week.

If we could start the whole search over again, I know there would be a lot of things handled differently.  But that is just being able to start Day One with experience from Day Twenty-One.  Of course that is what training is all about....

[Short Field]

CAP ought to be very careful how they address DEM's and Emergency Managers in general.

We can address them in general any way we desire.  It is when we start to get specific and personal that we had better watch our words.  If I bad mouth specific folks and agencies I work with, then I run a good chance of screwing up any relationship I might have with them.    If you want to slam them in general - as in "most CAP ICs don't really understand the ICS system", then swing away.

[wingnut55]

I flew every day for 6 hours on the Fossett Mission, how many days? not sure. I know that after 5 days of flying I was physically and Emotionally exhausted. But I can tell you this, The CAWG IC used the correct forms for all leads, including a few Psycho-Dreamers, I was deeply disturbed by the lack of cooperation between CAWG and  Nevada CAP, we needed an after action report (Badly), however two of the key player were killed in a CAP flying accident shortly after the Fossett mission was shut down, So we never had completed an after action report.

I think one small item has been overlooked in the report. The auditor wrote that CAP does the Search with no expense to the state, i think he was pointing the mistake of calling out the Guard.

One last bit of information, it was well known that the Governor of Nevada, made multiple trips to spend time with the Hiltons at the Ranch. I believe that the Buck stops with him, when the question was asked: " how was the guard activated". On;y the Governor has that authority, unless AFRCC activated the Air Guard, and I don't think they did. So clearly there is some (lots) of politics surrounding the entire operation, the Hiltons, Fossett, and the Governor of Nevada were close friends.

[RiverAux]

A Unified Command does not mean that each separate IC has people working in all the ICS Branches and Sections.   

You're correct.  It means that all assets are working within the same system.  So, for example, the same Operations officer would be overseeing all CAP, National Guard, and Highway patrol aircraft.  However, it does mean that if it were being used there would be a CAP IC there helping to oversee all those assets and who would presumably know how critical keeping tracks of clues would be.  However, since I brought that up, we've had CAP members basically confirm that we weren't using Unified Command.  So, that being the case, the CAP IC is certainly off the hook for that particular issue. 

[Short Field]

However, it does mean that if it were being used there would be a CAP IC there helping to oversee all those assets and who would presumably know how critical keeping tracks of clues would be. 

I will agree that the CAP IC could have raised the issue of tracking clues (and may have for all we know), but that would have been "inside the tent".  He would not have had a role overseeing all the assets - just the CAP assets.

[RiverAux]

No, under Unified Command all the ICs form a team and all are resposible for supervising the single ICS structure below them.  Personally, I think it would be quite a struggle to implement such a structure, but that is how the "book" says it is supposed to be done. 

However, since Unified Command was apparently not used here, it is sort of beside the point now. 

[heliodoc]

In all of the above replies/observations, it seems the inexperience level in the ICS system for BOTH DEM and CAP were all somewhat the issue in this case.

The learning curve for all to use the ICS system is going to require EVERYONE to play on the same sheet of music.  The whole idea is to get everyone on the same sheet of music.  It may require the integration of all agencies paperwork and the ability to track that paperwork on ICS forms rather than just "agency forms."

ALL of this IS the ICS system, common terminolgy, clear text, the ability to document on ONE set o' forms rather than the myriad of forms.  Look at ALL those Federal resources online for ICS forms, it really shouldn't be that hard to document the issues of the day, as apparently was the case, with "many loose scraps of paper"

How do I know this stuff somewhat works??  Spent 10 yrs in wildland fire, 10 in Emergency Mgmt,  7 yrs CAP the first time around, and now with my fire gig here.

NWCG/ FIRESCOPE 1970 and the wildland fire organizations created the ICS system originating in CA and went on to the Forest Service and NOW in the last 7 yrs, DHS has "thieved",  plagarized" whatever.


WHY??  'CUZ the stuff works!!!!!!!  I have had Sheriff's Dept's and PD's thinks that it has some merits to it during my travels as Civil Defense Planning Specialist in the last 3 years. 

So all in all, want to Federal dough and grants?   NIMS compliance   Want to play in the all hazard all risk world??   ICS

I am not in total defense of DHS........ OCD turning to FEMA in the last 35 yrs has been weak at best.  BUT FEMA with its maybe 6000 total permanent employees and probably 6000 to 8000 more as DAE's has growing pains, also.  FEMA has its own issues, but CAP casting stones again??  Civilian Helo and military operators were the first on scene, PD , Sheriff Dept, etc and then wildland fire personnel were on scene pushing the ICS sytem about "36 -72 hrs later."  Sure you can blame FEMA and the Feds.  But all emergencies are local and the mayor and governors are act first, gets EM in the fold, start spending dough, DO PA and IA, apply for the Declaration, get the civilian poulation comforted and under control, etc etc etc

Can' t blame the Fed for every little issue.  Prepostioning of stock(s) is under Army control, FEMA just has to have a  mission statement.. So the blame is equal on ALL not just FEMA.  Katrina was what was and NO one was organized very well.  So the FEMA screwup mantra is OLD and how come CAP has some of those "free" FEMA trailers anyway??  IT was "free" and CAP sure did not miss a beat getting in on that while chirping about FEMA response............................

But again until CAP learns, executes, and moves with the changes and conducts AAR's after their own exercises and opens up their minds to the Emergency Management world, then we are probably are going to be in our little own world and island.

Until DHS is dismantled (don't think it'll happen any time soon) then WE as CAP had better learn to play if we are to more then ELT hunters and search and rescue personnel, which we are great at.  But we have to learn to adopt to the ICS system, because we will be working for anIC somewhere in the world, he/she may not have a handle on it all, BUT I know CAP does NOT have a total handle on ICS at the present time, either!!!!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I see the problem as CAP members still seeing themselves as civilians.  Holding themselves to no standard except the desire to help and the skill to fly aircraft.

The NIMS is nothing more than a recycled/modified system based on the military staffing system that has been around since the days of Napoleon.  There are new terms, slightly modified methods of expanding the staff, and a little shuffling of responsibilities, but if you understand the role of a staff in military operations, you can work pretty well with NIMS.

The trouble is, since the 70's, CAP officers have not felt the need to learn the military way of doing things.  They raise their wimpy voices in resistance to ANY militarization of CAP with: "We're just a civilian corporation... Wahhhhh!"

That sharply increases the learning curve for transitioning into NIMS.

The CAP of the 1960's could have made this transition much quicker than the CAP of today.