CAP Rangers

[mikeylikey]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

... and anonymously, which speaks volumes as to your personal integrity.

If you're going to talk trash, at least pretend to have enough backbone to identify yourself, 'k?


[Apologies to the rest of the assemblage, I just find anon posting in a forum like this to be akin to cowardice. I agree strongly that this thread should be steered back to a constructive discussion of such programs, and IMHO that means that the anon punters should go back to the kiddie table.]

[MIKE]

That's your opinion, it doesn't change the fact that anonymous posting is allowed by site policy.

[JC004]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

... and anonymously, which speaks volumes as to your personal integrity.

If you're going to talk trash, at least pretend to have enough backbone to identify yourself, 'k?


[Apologies to the rest of the assemblage, I just find anon posting in a forum like this to be akin to cowardice. I agree strongly that this thread should be steered back to a constructive discussion of such programs, and IMHO that means that the anon punters should go back to the kiddie table.]

Does the kiddie table have chicken fingers and macaroni and cheese?!     Sorry...going back to my cage now...

[fyrfitrmedic]

That's your opinion, it doesn't change the fact that anonymous posting is allowed by site policy.

Very true, which is unfortunate.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

... and anonymously, which speaks volumes as to your personal integrity.

If you're going to talk trash, at least pretend to have enough backbone to identify yourself, 'k?


[Apologies to the rest of the assemblage, I just find anon posting in a forum like this to be akin to cowardice. I agree strongly that this thread should be steered back to a constructive discussion of such programs, and IMHO that means that the anon punters should go back to the kiddie table.]

Does the kiddie table have chicken fingers and macaroni and cheese?!     Sorry...going back to my cage now...

Slightly smushed PB&J and cut-up hot dogs served with cheap yellow mustard for a dipping sauce. Oh, and half-stale and somewhat-broken potato chips and pretzels mixed together in a bowl. For dessert, a gelatin mold with ersatz whipped cream and sort-of diced fruit within.

[JC004]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

... and anonymously, which speaks volumes as to your personal integrity.

If you're going to talk trash, at least pretend to have enough backbone to identify yourself, 'k?


[Apologies to the rest of the assemblage, I just find anon posting in a forum like this to be akin to cowardice. I agree strongly that this thread should be steered back to a constructive discussion of such programs, and IMHO that means that the anon punters should go back to the kiddie table.]

Does the kiddie table have chicken fingers and macaroni and cheese?!     Sorry...going back to my cage now...

Slightly smushed PB&J and cut-up hot dogs served with cheap yellow mustard for a dipping sauce. Oh, and half-stale and somewhat-broken potato chips and pretzels mixed together in a bowl. For dessert, a gelatin mold with ersatz whipped cream and sort-of diced fruit within.

As nice as the memories of crushed PB&J are, I am guessing there will be juice boxes, and I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).  Hopefully for breakfast, the kids will have Fruity Pebbles!

[LTC_Gadget]

I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).

Would you consider Murphy's as a suitable substitute?

V/R,

[JC004]

I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).

Would you consider Murphy's as a suitable substitute?

V/R,

Substitutes...never.  Alternatives...sometimes.  Guinness makes you strong.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).

Would you consider Murphy's as a suitable substitute?

Murphy's goes better with some foods; Guinness is better by itself, IMHO.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I will not go on to bash the Florida Rangers YET.  I will give you guys and ladies the benefit of the doubt, because I have never met the leadership down there.  However, I know who we have running HMRS up here in PA, so I will continue to post my distaste of the entire program.

... and anonymously, which speaks volumes as to your personal integrity.

If you're going to talk trash, at least pretend to have enough backbone to identify yourself, 'k?


[Apologies to the rest of the assemblage, I just find anon posting in a forum like this to be akin to cowardice. I agree strongly that this thread should be steered back to a constructive discussion of such programs, and IMHO that means that the anon punters should go back to the kiddie table.]

Does the kiddie table have chicken fingers and macaroni and cheese?!     Sorry...going back to my cage now...

Slightly smushed PB&J and cut-up hot dogs served with cheap yellow mustard for a dipping sauce. Oh, and half-stale and somewhat-broken potato chips and pretzels mixed together in a bowl. For dessert, a gelatin mold with ersatz whipped cream and sort-of diced fruit within.

As nice as the memories of crushed PB&J are, I am guessing there will be juice boxes, and I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).  Hopefully for breakfast, the kids will have Fruity Pebbles!

[smacking forehead]

I  forgot beverages.

As for cereal, why restrict it to breakfast? http://www.cereality.com

[ZigZag911]

Leaving aside Major Rowley's distaste for anonymous posting (and of course that assumes he is indeed who he claims to be), the issue here as I see it is the PA Ranger program and its offshoots.

I first encountered HMRS secondhand as a cadet in the 70s, after some of my peers had attended the program in order to serve as cadre in establishing NJ Ranger program.

The dedication of the personnel was unmatched in CAP.

Unfortunately, so was the zealotry and the arrogant attitudes.

I had no use for it then, nor for some of the more extreme behavior (the business with the rabbits, for instance).....neither has any direct bearing on anything we actually do in CAP.

I still have no use for these aspects of the program, and think it will only receive broad-based respect when it focuses solely on the professional level skills some of its graduates do indeed demonstrate in SAR activities, and foregoes the eccentric, infantile nonsense.

Morale can be built without abusing people or animals.

If some of our personnel want to pursue survival training -- and there is no reason they shouldn't, although not under the guise of it having some immediate ES application -- I'd far rather see the program revamped under the auspices of current or former military instructors in the subject who also understand CAP and its role.

[JC004]

I'd rather have a nice Guinness, so maybe I will sit at the big people table (at least for dinner).

Would you consider Murphy's as a suitable substitute?

Murphy's goes better with some foods; Guinness is better by itself, IMHO.

hmm...fair enough.  As for Cereality, I've heard of it, but I haven't been there yet...it's probably 10 bucks a bowl plus 7% tax (is poured cereal a prepared food? dunno). 

Ok, now that we hijacked it again, back to your regularly scheduled thread, ladies and gentlemen (and anonymous posters).   

[floridacyclist]

I still have no use for these aspects of the program, and think it will only receive broad-based respect when it focuses solely on the professional level skills some of its graduates do indeed demonstrate in SAR activities, and foregoes the eccentric, infantile nonsense.

Like I said, NIMS Type 3 Wilderness SAR standards is our eventual goal. I don't think it gets any more professional than that

Morale can be built without abusing people or animals.

I agree, which is why neither of those concepts are present in our school. We don't have enough training time to waste it on applications without some level of relatively immediate applicability.

If some of our personnel want to pursue survival training -- and there is no reason they shouldn't, although not under the guise of it having some immediate ES application -- I'd far rather see the program revamped under the auspices of current or former military instructors in the subject who also understand CAP and its role.

Which is why our September event is tentatively scheduled to be survival training; it is dependent on whether the SERE guys from Eglin or Rucker can come out and play. I don't see very much direct relevance to ES in survival training, but the pride, self-esteem and self-confidence benefits (especially to teenagers) are enormous. Just learning that you really can handle anything life throws at you is a big deal to some of these kids.

In some ways, this really should be more under CP than ES.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I don't 'claim' to be anyone in particular; I'm just me, that's pretty readily verifiable... and I don't purport to speak on behalf of anything or anyone else. That's not really the purpose of this thread, though. That being said, here's my own personal vision of what such schools should be:

- a place to learn baseline skills leavened with the needs/requirements of regional climate/terrain/etc.

- a place to develop leaders, instructors and subject-matter experts

- a champion for SAR training, setting high standards and encouraging their dissemination down to the grass-roots level

- a venue to offer continuing education and skills diversification as appropriate and feasible

My biggest gripe regarding SAR training in Civil Air Patrol in general is what I've perceived over the years to be a 'dumbing down' of multi-unit training in some respects and an excessive reliance on 'fair weather' training because some at various echelons only want to hold training when it's bright and sunny and all the airplanes can fly. We need to train like we search.

In addition, we need to examine and address how skills are evaluated and endorsed; over the years I've encountered in a number of places a whole slew of GTMs and GTLs as well as GBD or two who could probably provide a rote answer from the book but who I'd have fairly grave reservations about sending into the field. To be fair, I've encountered some 'rangers' and 'pathfinders' and such within CAP for whom I'd have the same misgivings.

I'm not a big fan of 'bling', personally. In general I'm a bit of a minimalist to begin with. There are times and places for trappings and regalia; if these times and places are not appropriately respected, the purpose of said trappings and regalia is diluted.

There's no place for arrogance in what we do. When it comes to both teaching and learning, I'm a strong believer of the concept of shoshin or 'beginner's mind'.

I'm a strong believer in tradition, but not blindly for the sake of repetition or as a tool to be misused.

I believe in a strong need for high professional standards among those who are to teach and to lead, but I don't necessarily believe that those skillsets come entirely from within the ranks of the military, and as such we shouldn't rule out competent, capable instructors who come from outside the military as long as they understand CAP and their role within same.

This isn't about 'my program's better than yours' or 'your people are meanies' or the usual circular arguments - it's about making the whole thing better.

[mikeylikey]

 ^ Agree!

[ZigZag911]

I don't 'claim' to be anyone in particular; I'm just me, that's pretty readily verifiable... and I don't purport to speak on behalf of anything or anyone else. That's not really the purpose of this thread, though. That being said, here's my own personal vision of what such schools should be:

- a place to learn baseline skills leavened with the needs/requirements of regional climate/terrain/etc.

- a place to develop leaders, instructors and subject-matter experts

- a champion for SAR training, setting high standards and encouraging their dissemination down to the grass-roots level

- a venue to offer continuing education and skills diversification as appropriate and feasible

My biggest gripe regarding SAR training in Civil Air Patrol in general is what I've perceived over the years to be a 'dumbing down' of multi-unit training in some respects and an excessive reliance on 'fair weather' training because some at various echelons only want to hold training when it's bright and sunny and all the airplanes can fly. We need to train like we search.

In addition, we need to examine and address how skills are evaluated and endorsed; over the years I've encountered in a number of places a whole slew of GTMs and GTLs as well as GBD or two who could probably provide a rote answer from the book but who I'd have fairly grave reservations about sending into the field. To be fair, I've encountered some 'rangers' and 'pathfinders' and such within CAP for whom I'd have the same misgivings.

I'm not a big fan of 'bling', personally. In general I'm a bit of a minimalist to begin with. There are times and places for trappings and regalia; if these times and places are not appropriately respected, the purpose of said trappings and regalia is diluted.

There's no place for arrogance in what we do. When it comes to both teaching and learning, I'm a strong believer of the concept of shoshin or 'beginner's mind'.

I'm a strong believer in tradition, but not blindly for the sake of repetition or as a tool to be misused.

I believe in a strong need for high professional standards among those who are to teach and to lead, but I don't necessarily believe that those skillsets come entirely from within the ranks of the military, and as such we shouldn't rule out competent, capable instructors who come from outside the military as long as they understand CAP and their role within same.

This isn't about 'my program's better than yours' or 'your people are meanies' or the usual circular arguments - it's about making the whole thing better.

I find myself in general agreement with all you said.

If your attitude is reflective of the present environment in HRMS -- and I understand that you spoke only for yourself -- then I can see the image of the school rapidly improving, as it becomes more visibly mission oriented.

[floridacyclist]

I have seen pretty much the same thing in my two cadets who have come back from HMRS. Still very humble about who they are, but very willing to help, share knowledge, and instruct others. The only other HMRS cadet that I know very well (since he was 13) was with us for the RECON missions in 2004, and has since gone on to Combat Medic school and Jump School, and has returned to us (he's in the Guard) while awaiting his slot at SF school to open up; he is one of our instructors and is absolutely one of my favorite people of all time. Pretentiousness or arrogance are two words that are not found in his vocabulary. Needless to say he is an awesome role model.

That is my ideal for other graduates as well. All of our people here in North FL are at very basic levels, so this has not become an issue yet, but if it does, we will talk.

One thing to understand is that we are not a self-contained Ranger School, but rather a series of prep classes for those planning on attending HMRS or who need a couple of signoffs on return. We simply don't have the local manning to go much further than that.

I have been considering requesting permission to change the name to North Florida Ground Operations School to recognize that we do much more than the basic Ranger curriculum with none of the associated bling and potential hazing. If so, we would still offer the same training (including Ranger signoffs for those attending or planning to attend HMRS or Falcon) as long as it was relevant to our needs and be in the same chain of command, but would have some freedom to explore outside the Ranger curriculum.

Thoughts? Not that I'm going to obey (unless you're the Wing King ) but I am curious as to how others would perceive that change.

[arajca]

I think that name change makes sense. It also allows to easily revise the school's focus without having to change the name. Say from ranger-based to NIMS-based training.

[sarmed1]

...with none of the associated bling and potential hazing

I fail to see the relevance in the curriculum vs the potential for hazing.  Prior to and even after RST, I have seen more instances of hazing at activites other than HMRS.
An activites potential for hazing has nothing to do with its curriculum or how the activity is run but rather who is running it.  I would argue that your localized "Ranger" training has a higher potential for hazing.

What NIMS trainig would you reccommend that is not already coverd in the course.
All personnel already recieve ICS 100 (as part of GES) and ICS 700
ICS 200 is reccommneded by FEMA for team leaders
I can see adding ICS 300 as an option for those pursuing GBD and above.

Honestly I dont see it being that much of an impact change that I would re-vamp the curriculum to "NIMS" based vs "Ranger" based.

If you look at the resource typing for wilderness SAR, HMRS 2nd year courses meet the objectives to support a type II team.  Which as far as I know, no other CAP SAR school does.  Specifically the medical and backcountry thechnical and patient evac requirements

mk