CAP Rangers

[Sgt. Savage]

OK,

I'm on board with rangersigo. A "Ranger Program" isn't a bad thing... if it serves a well defined purpose above and beyond what we already serve. An Identifier and a little badge is all they need; not all of the "BLING" that they use now.

The attitude is a product of their instructors. If they are in fact better than average, a little pretentiousness is expected. If they're the same as everyone else, except that they learned knot tying while in the front-leaning-rest, their leaders have fooled them into believing they are better than they are, thus making them more a liability than an asset. Good  training aside, the military title of Ranger supports the idea that is encompassed in the Ranger creed. Thing like



"Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move farther, faster and fight harder than any other soldier."


"Never shall I fail my comrades."

" I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be. One-hundred-percent and then some."


"Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well-trained soldier."


"Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission though I be the lone survivor."

These things are not what a CAP Ranger is. These same ideals could be adapted to apply but....

Just my opinion

[Stonewall]

Better late than never, SSG Savage. 

[sarmed1]

If they are in fact better than average, a little pretentiousness is expected. If they're the same as everyone else...

You know this statement actually kind of hits it on the head.  I think by large the officer instructors are better than the average bear, but thats due to years of expereince both in the training world and in the operational world.  Many HMRS instructors have been doing SAR since they were cadets, and for some thats a long, long time.

The way this becomes perverse is when cadet students or even cadet junior staff begin to emmulate the officer instructors, sans experience.  They try to project the "I am a BA attitude" yet rarely have the ability to back that up, and thats where they get themselves (and as a representitive of the program) everyone else into trouble.

As far as the bling, I think most officer personnel at the school could care less if they wear a bizzilon pieces of flair.  The school patch and simple tab would be enough for me. (and not the Wing King version of the LL patch in place of the wing patch, I am sorry but I refuse to do that)

mk

[floridacyclist]

Wow...I'm in the middle of Sun n Fun and the whole world goes to he&* in a handbasket while I'm busy chasing cadets around Lakeland. I'd like to make a couple of points and then I'm stepping back and finishing the week here at our own little mini-Oshkosh.

A) It is a Ranger Comm school because my squadron and Group Commander were not interested in sponsoring it as they didn't think they were up to what they consider a NCSA-style activity. When I mentioned this to the then FL Wing Ranger Training Officer, he suggested that we conduct it under the auspices of the Ranger Program so that it could proceed without local interference. Since that original suggestion, the concept has grown and changed a little...maybe it will grow into a repeat activity and be incorporated into the training, maybe it won't. In the meantime, at least we're doing something instead of sitting around talking about how much more fun CAP was in the old days. Heaven forbid the cadets might get a little training in and feel good about themselves in the process.

B) There is nothing absolutely special about our program or it's attendees, we just train a lot harder than the minimum standards call for. It's all in the spirit of  fun and learning; others seem to be taking us a lot more seriously than we do ourselves.  If you don't think we train differently than your standard ES activity, read the AAR from our last Ranger Weekend in the Tall Tales section or read the training description on http://www.tallahasseecap.org/commcamp and see if that sounds like any training you might have attended recently. For that matter, when have you heard any CAP program talk about fielding a NIMS-compliant type III Wilderness SAR team as a goal?

C) I've had my own problems with elitist cadets (read some of my past posts where I was talking about almost cancelling an ELT mission we were on because of the insubordination displayed by some of the HMRS PA wing cadets riding around with me. One thing we're doing a bit different is training the seniors and together and not treating the cadets like ES gods - and we tell them to knock that crap off. We're all on the same team and nobody needs to act any better than anyone else. If they think they're any better than anyone else, I don't want them at our school.

D) There probably would not be a North Florida Ranger School if we had any ES activity going on locally or were allowed to simply put on training when we could get away with it. I'm not going to point any fingers here, but suffice it to say that about the only local ES training in a couple of years has been as a Wing Activity under the name of "Ranger School". This allows us to bypass the roadblocks at the local level and train anyway

E) I don't see the relevance of rock-climbing and such here in FL but the kids sure love it. That said, we like to do our training in the swamp, which to me is FL's terrain that can be every bit as challenging as the mountains. If you'd like to see where our next training event will be, look up Bradwell Bay in Florida.

Bottom line is the cadets enjoy it and quite frankly I do too. I have seen both of my kids do complete 180s in both their personal lives and in CAP since going to HMRS; they've started promoting and their grades in school skyrocketed. Sure we need to temper any uppity attitudes by teaching these kids respect for their peers and others, but that is the responsibility of the parents and leaders. I will do my best to teach them that they are no better than anyone else, but it is up to those around them to let them know that attitude is not acceptable. If I catch my own kids acting like that, I'll kick their butts myself.

PS I hate the white pistol belt, whistle and ascot and never plan to wear them except maybe at HMRS if I ever go (I attended Falcon Academy in the Glades). Useless fluff is just that...useless fluff.

[JC004]

Wow...I'm in the middle of Sun n Fun and the whole world goes to he&* in a handbasket while I'm busy chasing cadets around Lakeland. I'd like to make a couple of points and then I'm stepping back and finishing the week here at our own little mini-Oshkosh.

Crap...there goes my weekend.  See you soon, I guess. 

You mention being able to use the ranger school/program as a way around the lack of local help.  Who runs the ranger program in FL?  Is it like a sub-section of wing ops, its own quasi-department, an underground organization...?

[BillB]

Florida has always taken a different view of "Ranger Schools".  The original one started as a small activity during the late 1950's.  During the 1960's female cadets complained that there was no Ranger style activity for them, and Florida started what was called "Petticoat Trail". A strictly female Ranger School which was held on the northern edge of the Everglades or in north central Florida.
The only bling was graduates or both schools got to wear the Army style ranger patch (arc) above the Wing patch. They also got to wear orange baseball caps during the activity only.
The two Ranger programs which predated Hawk by several years, operated as a Wing level activity independent of the Wing Director of Cadet Programs under their own leadership. And that was the downfall of the program when the Ranger programs started conflicting with Wing Cadet Programs.

[floridacyclist]

Crap...there goes my weekend.  See you soon, I guess. 

You mention being able to use the ranger school/program as a way around the lack of local help.  Who runs the ranger program in FL?  Is it like a sub-section of wing ops, its own quasi-department, an underground organization...?

It is a sub-directorate of ES. There is a Wing Director of Ranger Training, a commandant of the Ranger North school, and a commandant of the Ranger South school. According to the letter that just came out from Wing the other day, I have the North school. It's not something that I volunteered for as the original plan was to simply give the cadets a chance to work on their ranger sign-offs in between sessions at HMRS, but it has kind of taken on a life of it's own.

It's not underground, in fact one of the classes we are working on is how to teach and properly evaluate...because the students will often be expected to take on those roles as needed and capable when they return to their home unit.

It doesn't make anyone special or elite, but it is great for those who want to train harder than the standard CAP SAR training calls for since not everyone is into 5mi ruck hikes or sleeping out in the woods in a poncho; other than that, it's simply all in fun and it helps keep the cadets interested in CAP when many are starting to drift away. I have had at least one parent tell me that this was what they thought CAP was supposed to be about when their kid joined and several cadets from other units have emailed me multiple times wanting to know about our next event.

We did have some minor problems with hazing (happily not involving any of our cadets from up here as the perpetrator, so i shouldn't have to deal with it again) but that has been addressed and the word is out that I simply will not tolerate it. We are here to provide fun and intense training that explores the envelope of what we can do and learn (such as our recent exercise where we practiced flanking with the K-9 SAR teams or our tentatively planned 3-day survival weekend in Sept), not a Boot camp experience; if someone wants one of those, they should join the Marines.

I look forward to meeting you if I see you around. I am currently serving as the IO for the CAP side of the event, although I will probably be out on the field as well. You will probably find me to be one of the more laid-back of the ES guys around here as I'm in this mainly to have fun with the cadets, 2 of whom belong to me.

[mikeylikey]

Florida has always taken a different view of "Ranger Schools".  The original one started as a small activity during the late 1950's.  During the 1960's female cadets complained that there was no Ranger style activity for them, and Florida started what was called "Petticoat Trail". A strictly female Ranger School which was held on the northern edge of the Everglades or in north central Florida.
The only bling was graduates or both schools got to wear the Army style ranger patch (arc) above the Wing patch. They also got to wear orange baseball caps during the activity only.
The two Ranger programs which predated Hawk by several years, operated as a Wing level activity independent of the Wing Director of Cadet Programs under their own leadership. And that was the downfall of the program when the Ranger programs started conflicting with Wing Cadet Programs.

I don't know where to begin with this!  Everything about what they did was outright wrong! 

[JC004]

Crap...there goes my weekend.  See you soon, I guess. 

You mention being able to use the ranger school/program as a way around the lack of local help.  Who runs the ranger program in FL?  Is it like a sub-section of wing ops, its own quasi-department, an underground organization...?

It is a sub-directorate of ES. There is a Wing Director of Ranger Training, a commandant of the Ranger North school, and a commandant of the Ranger South school. According to the letter that just came out from Wing the other day, I have the North school. It's not something that I volunteered for as hte original plan was to simply give the kids a chance to work on their ranger sign-offs in between sessions at HMRS, but it has kind of taken on a life of it's own.

It's not underground, in fact one of the classes we are working on is how to teach and properly evaluate...because the students will often be expected to take on those roles as needed and capable when they return to their home unit.

It doesn't make anyone special or elite, but it is great for those who want to train harder than the standard CAP SAR training calls for since not everyone is into 5mi ruck hikes or sleeping out in the woods in a poncho; other than that, it's simply all in fun and it helps keep the kids interested in CAP when many are starting to drift away. I have had at least one parent tell me that this was what they thought CAP was supposed to be about when their kid joined and several cadets from other units have emailed me multiple times wanting to know about our next event.

We did have some minor problems with hazing (happily not involving any of our kids from up here as the perpetrator, so i shouldn't have to deal with it again) but that has been addressed and the word is out that I simply will not tolerate it. We are here to provide fun and intense training that explores the envelope of what we can do and learn (such as our recent exercise where we practiced flanking with the K-9 SAR teams or our tentatively planned 3-day survival weekend in Sept), not a Boot camp experience; if someone wants one of those, they should join the Marines.

I look forwad to meeting you if i see you around. I am currently serving as the IO for the CAP side of the event, although I will probably be out on the field as well. You will probably find me to be one of the more laid-back of the ES guys around here.

Thanks...was kind of wondering how that worked.  I was worried it might be a secret society with people dancing in the woods naked except for pistol belts (complete with 'gator sacrifices).        Probably see you there...I don't look much like my avatar (and am sure as heck not wearing a uniform), but I am trying to eat as many donuts as possible and I will probably wear my lame-o CAP hat from Vanguard (didn't buy it, it was given to me by Vanguard) when I'm not near spinny things.

[floridacyclist]

I don't know where to begin with this!  Everything about what they did was outright wrong! 

Exactly!!!! LOLOL

So much so that if I didn't trust Bill, I'd think he was yanking on our legs a little LOL

[floridacyclist]

I've been to Hawk Mountain and had a good experience.  I think it is an excellent way to learn about Search and Rescue.  It is called Hawk Mountain Ranger School and has been around long before I joined CAP.  I respect that.

Instead, I've got a cadet in my squadron with a starched BDU cap with the top pushed down to be a "Ranger Roll", a white pistol belt, whistle and ascot around their neck.  The other 15 cadets all look to standard, CAP standard, but then there's this one person out of place.  Just gets me hot under the collar.

You might point out to said cadet that those uniform items are A) not approved yet at the national Level, and B) subject to wing approval on a wing-by-wing basis.

The more negative stuff I hear from the field about how it's being flaunted and abused, the more apt I am to lobby for the Wing CC to approve it only at Ranger events. Of course, that might knock out the blue beret too since that was part of the same ruling that was adopted, but I'm sure they'll live as well.

Personally,I have no use for the bling except for a smll BTDT patch although I do like the orange hats for practical reasons.

[JC004]

I've been to Hawk Mountain and had a good experience.  I think it is an excellent way to learn about Search and Rescue.  It is called Hawk Mountain Ranger School and has been around long before I joined CAP.  I respect that.

Instead, I've got a cadet in my squadron with a starched BDU cap with the top pushed down to be a "Ranger Roll", a white pistol belt, whistle and ascot around their neck.  The other 15 cadets all look to standard, CAP standard, but then there's this one person out of place.  Just gets me hot under the collar.

You might point out to said cadet that those uniform items are A) not approved yet at the national Level, and B) subject to wing approval on a wing-by-wing basis.

The more negative stuff I hear from the field about how it's being flaunted and abused, the more apt I am to lobby for the Wing CC to approve it only at Ranger events. Of course, that might knock out the blue beret too since that was part of the same ruling that was adopted, but I'm sure they'll live as well.

Personally,I have no use for the bling except for a smll BTDT patch although I do like the orange hats for practical reasons.

My philosophy is as follows (and you all better follow it when I'm supreme national ruler): If you don't like what a regulation says, unless you are in some extreme safety situation, you follow that regulation.  If you want it changed, you propose a change, but don't violate it in the meantime.

That's how I see the use of unauthorized uniform items especially.  Besides it's a matter of...if you can't follow a black and white regulation on what to wear, can you follow instructions in the field and not get somebody/something broke?

[Chaplaindon]

If, as I have been led to understand, small animals (e.g. rabbits) are killed, field-dressed, cooked and eaten as a curricular part of HMRS, then I must disagree with floridacyclist when he proffered, "it's simply all in fun and it helps keep the cadets interested in CAP when many are starting to drift away."

Killing should never be seen as "all in fun" and, IMHO, "keep[ing] the cadets interested in CAP" is a poor excuse for needless cruelty toward animals.

Amid all of the violent (and desensitizingly gorey) video games, disgusting "Faces of Death" videos, gangsta' rap songs glorifying the murder of police and the violent degradation of women, I cannot see any justification for the killing of small animals (even as a survival exercise). It merely helps encourage more violence and feeds unhealthy voyeuristic tendencies of adolescents.

To my clergy mind, it is nothing but a rite-of-passage and therein de facto hazing.

If I am correct in my understanding of that hideous practice at HMRS, I will work tirelessly to end it forthwith. The Pennsylvania chapter of the SPCA will hear about it, to be sure.

If I am wrong --not about its implications or my disapproval of it-- and such kill-clean-and-eat exercises no longer are a part of HMRS, please let me know and then accept my apologies for being misinformed.

[JC004]

^^ You can debate the benefits and all, but to answer your question, yes, it remains part of the program (farm-raised rabbits). 

[Chaplaindon]

Thanks James ...

Off to the Penn SPCA website for contact info.

[Sgt. Savage]

I have to side with Chaplain Don on this. even in the "REAL" Ranger School, we didn't kill and eat. That's reserved for SERE school and the SF "Q" Course. Not a good things for kids to practice... learn, yes, but not practice.

[floridacyclist]

We don't kill animals in our school for three simple reasons. A) It avoids the kind of controversy you are seeing right now,  B) gathering plants and insects would be a much more efficient use of limited time and energy in a true survival situation. C) Food comes 4th in the rule of 3s (3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food, 3 seconds without your head).

I'm not saying that we would have the students munching away on grasshoppers (although they were good enough for John the Baptist along with a large percentage of the earth's population today), but that they understand the truth about banking all of your survival chances on hunting and killing the increasingly smaller population of wild game.

Which explains why we tried as hard as we could to have a native plants expert at our MLK weekend event.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Thanks James ...

Off to the Penn SPCA website for contact info.

One question: Will your missive to the SPCA be anonymous too?

[JC004]

Thanks James ...

Off to the Penn SPCA website for contact info.

One question: Will your missive to the SPCA be anonymous too?

(ut oh)  HEY GUYS!  LOOK OVER THERE!  FREE DONUTS AND COFFEE!  Over...there...that way...away from this thread -->

I would hope, on such a big topic as this, the thread would serve us well as a discussion of national standards, and for the rangers to reflect on their program and on themselves - hopefully to consider how they can move themselves and everyone else forward at the same time. 

[floridacyclist]

I would hope, on such a big topic as this, the thread would serve us well as a discussion of national standards, and for the rangers to reflect on their program and on themselves - hopefully to consider how they can move themselves and everyone else forward at the same time. 

Exactly. I do not believe in everything that "Rangers" seems to stand for; I do not toe their party line (or anyone else's for that matter). But until something better comes along that will allow us to train in ways that would not go over in standard GT training, this is our best chance at doing the things that we joined CAP to do. Judging by how many show up to the training sessions, we're not alone.

Incidentally, one thing I constantly tell the cadets (who are often only worried about getting their Ranger ratings) is "Ranger ratings are fun to earn, but GTMs are who goes on the missions"