Pathfinder Technical School

[sarmed1]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained and registered by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

So if an certifying body grants Education Center status to a CAP unit (wing, group or squadron, your call) are instructors CAP members or XYZ certifying body.  (Hint:   I am an AHA instructor in ACLS, my teaching center is the Emergency Medicine Institute of LVHN, I am an agent of LVHN not the AHA when I teach)

[lordmonar]

Yes.  When the course was first started, it was referred to as a "First Responder" medic course. After discussions very similar to what is occurring in this thread, the course name  and curriculum were changed to the more appropriate Wilderness Advanced First Aid curriculum.  I may be wrong, but I believe the change happened in 2008.

I stand corrected....good on them.

[Eclipse]

No...not ERGO.....you said it was "CLEAR"  In that I would not have to know the ins and outs of OSHA regs and the intricacies of provider agreements etc, and so forth........so.....it is NOT clear.   And if.....IF Senior Member XMAN, certified by the We Provide First Aid Training INC....the issue is not between CAP and Senior Member XMAN....but Mr XMANd and WPFAT, inc.

Also remember.......GTM3 requires you to receive the training.......it does not say be certified.     Remember that argument?

I apologize if reading the regs thoroughly is too much to ask.

This is the problem - people read until they see a shiny penny, or right to the edge of what they want to do, but
not the whole thing, then they get upset when staffers, commanders, or some goober on the internet holds them to
the whole standard, not just the first place the issue was found in the document using F3.  You honestly don't want
to know how many conversations I had with outside bodies, OSHA people, and NHQ staffers on this issue trying to
make it simple to understand.  At least the first two provided consistent answers.

The standard is "x" - want to comply? Read, heed, and meet the standard - no different then being a pilot, which is also an external thing.

I remember all the arguments.  It's easy, we just keep having the same 10 over and over, like Bill Murray in Groundog Day.

[sarmed1]

Yes.  When the course was first started, it was referred to as a "First Responder" medic course. After discussions very similar to what is occurring in this thread, the course name  and curriculum were changed to the more appropriate Wilderness Advanced First Aid curriculum.  I may be wrong, but I believe the change happened in 2008.

Looking at the NESA site, is that a course option this year?"

Aging, wondering: How many schools/wings out there have a "medic" course?  I count PA (HMRS), TX (LESA), NY (SARTAC), NESA and now MO (Pathfinder)

mk

[husker]

Yes, it still is an option.  It is listed under the ICSS site.

[lordmonar]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained and registered by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

So if an certifying body grants Education Center status to a CAP unit (wing, group or squadron, your call) are instructors CAP members or XYZ certifying body.  (Hint:   I am an AHA instructor in ACLS, my teaching center is the Emergency Medicine Institute of LVHN, I am an agent of LVHN not the AHA when I teach)

Now here is where Eclipse will say....."you better not be in a CAP uniform when you do it!".....at least that is what he said last time we debated this issue.

CAP could...and should IMHO write their own first aid course....certify our own instructors.....and just press on.   Heck.....we could just pick an existing agency...I have always like NOLS Wilderness First Aid.....we would send our people to NOLS to get certified as instructors, cut a deal with them to be able to teach the course for the cost of books......and be done with it.   Then there would be none of this back and forth.

Bottom line.....60-3 says....the first aid course....can be any first aid course that meets OSHA standards.    It says that it is "normally" done by outside agencies.......but that is it.



Now back to Pathfinder......I like it.....I think the added stuff is all good.  I have always liked the idea we use Kewl names and (with in reason) bling to encourage our members to go above and beyond.

My problem with HMRS....is not the bling.....but the amount of bling.....ranger tab....okay.  Ranger Tab, ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, etc, et al....little much.

Egos and attitudes....I get those from people comming back from encampment (doolies even) so I can handle a teen age with an over inflated sense of self worth. 

Good luck with Path Finder.....I too would like to see the curriculum for your low angle rescue, confined space, etc training.

[Eclipse]

So if an certifying body grants Education Center status to a CAP unit (wing, group or squadron, your call) are instructors CAP members or XYZ certifying body.  (Hint:   I am an AHA instructor in ACLS, my teaching center is the Emergency Medicine Institute of LVHN, I am an agent of LVHN not the AHA when I teach)

Per your instructor agreement and training, you are representing, and therefore protected by, the organization which certified you and tracks the students.

Providing the copywritten curriculum and instruction from any of these organizations without also tracking the students properly
is a violation of that agreement, and nulls the training as far as their certification, thus not meeting CAP's standards, nor will CAP
indemnify you for providing that training outside of your status as a "non-member, other-org instructor".

I've done this dance, too.  No way around it without either looking the other way, risking your instructor certification, or putting yourself or the organization
as unnecessary risk.

[Eclipse]

Now here is where Eclipse will say....."you better not be in a CAP uniform when you do it!".....at least that is what he said last time we debated this issue.

Already did.

CAP could...and should IMHO write their own first aid course....certify our own instructors.....and just press on.   Heck.....we could just pick an existing agency...I have always like NOLS Wilderness First Aid.....we would send our people to NOLS to get certified as instructors, cut a deal with them to be able to teach the course for the cost of books......and be done with it.   Then there would be none of this back and forth.

Agree 100%, or we simply create a curriculum that is certified by OSHA and move on.
Something to bear in mind, the ARC, AHA< etc., makes a fair amount of money on these course and have no incentive to simply turn over their
expensive curriculum to save CAP members money.

The problem is that done in-house, that puts CAP on the block for liability when the training is used, something CAP has no interest in.

Bottom line.....60-3 says....the first aid course....can be any first aid course that meets OSHA standards.

Corect, a standard impossible to meet without the certification of a formal organization.

[lordmonar]

No...not ERGO.....you said it was "CLEAR"  In that I would not have to know the ins and outs of OSHA regs and the intricacies of provider agreements etc, and so forth........so.....it is NOT clear.   And if.....IF Senior Member XMAN, certified by the We Provide First Aid Training INC....the issue is not between CAP and Senior Member XMAN....but Mr XMANd and WPFAT, inc.

Also remember.......GTM3 requires you to receive the training.......it does not say be certified.     Remember that argument?

I apologize if reading the regs thoroughly is too much to ask.

I'm sorry if you don't know what the word "clear" means.

This is the problem - people read until they see a shiny penny, or right to the edge of what they want to do, but
not the whole thing, then they get upset when staffers, commanders, or some goober on the internet holds them to
the whole standard, not just the first place the issue was found in the document using F3.  You honestly don't want
to know how many conversations I had with outside bodies, OSHA people, and NHQ staffers on this issue trying to
make it simple to understand.  At least the first two provided consistent answers.

The standard is "x" - want to comply? Read, heed, and meet the standard - no different then being a pilot, which is also an external thing.

I remember all the arguments.  It's easy, we just keep having the same 10 over and over, like Bill Murray in Groundog Day.

I have read......and my interpetaton of the regulation is......CAP can do First Aid Training....so long as it meets OSHA standards....that does not say anything about an "outside" agency.   The whole point of the OSHA standard is for agencies to IF THEY FEEL LIKE IT to do the training IN HOUSE.....so your entire argument that the OSHA standard forces us to use OUTSIDE agencies.....is wrong.  It does the complete opposite.

60-3 does say.....what ever training you get.....from who ever you get it from (normally and outside agency) it MUST have a hands on component....and it must meet OSHA standards.   And that is all 60-3 says about first aid training.

Sure....just like Bill Murry in ground Hog Day......he kept repeating his mistakes until he learned that he was wrong and fixed the errors of his ways.      To be clear.......You are Bill Murry. 

[Eclipse]

I have read......and my interpetaton of the regulation is......CAP can do First Aid Training....so long as it meets OSHA standards....that does not say anything about an "outside" agency.   The whole point of the OSHA standard is for agencies to IF THEY FEEL LIKE IT to do the training IN HOUSE.....so your entire argument that the OSHA standard forces us to use OUTSIDE agencies.....is wrong.  It does the complete opposite.

So who will create and certify the curriculum?

NHQ?  Oh, right, THEY DON"T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.

Use the ARC's?  Nope - copyright law prohibits that.

NHQ could simply drop the "OSHA" requirement and require whatever they want, but the OSHA standard is a handy way to
reach for readily available training - training the average person in a workforce environment gets regularly, and that has to be
provided by SOMEONE ELSE.

[lordmonar]

Now here is where Eclipse will say....."you better not be in a CAP uniform when you do it!".....at least that is what he said last time we debated this issue.

Already did.

CAP could...and should IMHO write their own first aid course....certify our own instructors.....and just press on.   Heck.....we could just pick an existing agency...I have always like NOLS Wilderness First Aid.....we would send our people to NOLS to get certified as instructors, cut a deal with them to be able to teach the course for the cost of books......and be done with it.   Then there would be none of this back and forth.

Agree 100%, or we simply create a curriculum that is certified by OSHA and move on.
Something to bear in mind, the ARC, AHA< etc., makes a fair amount of money on these course and have no incentive to simply turn over their
expensive curriculum to save CAP members money.

The problem is that done in-house, that puts CAP on the block for liability when the training is used, something CAP has no interest in.

Bottom line.....60-3 says....the first aid course....can be any first aid course that meets OSHA standards.

Corect, a standard impossible to meet without the certification of a formal organization.

CAP is on the block for the performance of our people in the field anyways......taking on First Aid is not going to add one penny to our insurance liability.

As for ARC or AHA turning over their curriculum....you maybe right.....and it would be the wrong curriculum anyways.   We need wilderness first aid not ARC or AHA first aid....their paradigms are just not right for us.   But I bet the U.S. Army would give us their combat life saver's course....and we could cut and paste what we need out of that. 

And once again....the OSHA standard is there for employers to develop their own in house training or other enterprises/individuals to develop products for those employers to use if they go out of house for their training.    So....again....your assertion that it is impossible to meet the OSHA standards with out going to outside agencies is a wrong reading of what the standards are telling you.

[sarmed1]

So if an certifying body grants Education Center status to a CAP unit (wing, group or squadron, your call) are instructors CAP members or XYZ certifying body.  (Hint:   I am an AHA instructor in ACLS, my teaching center is the Emergency Medicine Institute of LVHN, I am an agent of LVHN not the AHA when I teach)

Per your instructor agreement and training, you are representing, and therefore protected by, the organization which certified you and tracks the students.

Providing the copywritten curriculum and instruction from any of these organizations without also tracking the students properly
is a violation of that agreement, and nulls the training as far as their certification, thus not meeting CAP's standards, nor will CAP
indemnify you for providing that training outside of your status as a "non-member, other-org instructor".

I've done this dance, too.  No way around it without either looking the other way, risking your instructor certification, or putting yourself or the organization
as unnecessary risk.

HMRS certifies students in first aid and CPR (and MFR for the medic course) via ECSI.  There is no "stealing" the curriculum.  HMRS is a Teaching Center of ECSI, teaching an ECSI course using ECSI materials and texts.  But, HMRS is the Education Center.

so it is CAP members providing training to CAP members

mk

[lordmonar]

I have read......and my interpetaton of the regulation is......CAP can do First Aid Training....so long as it meets OSHA standards....that does not say anything about an "outside" agency.   The whole point of the OSHA standard is for agencies to IF THEY FEEL LIKE IT to do the training IN HOUSE.....so your entire argument that the OSHA standard forces us to use OUTSIDE agencies.....is wrong.  It does the complete opposite.

So who will create and certify the curriculum?

NHQ?  Oh, right, THEY DON"T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.

Use the ARC's?  Nope - copyright law prohibits that.

NHQ could simply drop the "OSHA" requirement and require whatever they want, but the OSHA standard is a handy way to
reach for readily available training - training the average person in a workforce environment gets regularly, and that has to be
provided by SOMEONE ELSE.

Normally.      Your argument breaks down right there.    You keep asserting that CAP regulations clearly say it must be an outside agency.......but it does not say that.

It says the the training must meet OSHA requirements.....there is NO OSHA certifying agency......that's not how OSHA works.....if they come to inspect......"Does your First Aid Training meet our requirements 2171-02? "  "Sure does!  Here is the curriculum for your perusal."  You don't have to submit it for per approval or certification by some other agency.   I'm the shop safety monitor for my Project.....I know how it works.

[lordmonar]

So if an certifying body grants Education Center status to a CAP unit (wing, group or squadron, your call) are instructors CAP members or XYZ certifying body.  (Hint:   I am an AHA instructor in ACLS, my teaching center is the Emergency Medicine Institute of LVHN, I am an agent of LVHN not the AHA when I teach)

Per your instructor agreement and training, you are representing, and therefore protected by, the organization which certified you and tracks the students.

Providing the copywritten curriculum and instruction from any of these organizations without also tracking the students properly
is a violation of that agreement, and nulls the training as far as their certification, thus not meeting CAP's standards, nor will CAP
indemnify you for providing that training outside of your status as a "non-member, other-org instructor".

I've done this dance, too.  No way around it without either looking the other way, risking your instructor certification, or putting yourself or the organization
as unnecessary risk.

HMRS certifies students in first aid and CPR (and MFR for the medic course) via ECSI.  There is no "stealing" the curriculum.  HMRS is a Teaching Center of ECSI, teaching an ECSI course using ECSI materials and texts.  But, HMRS is the Education Center.

so it is CAP members providing training to CAP members

mk

No....no....no.....it is an ECSI Instructor Illegally wearing a CAP uniform teaching CAP members. 

But seriously.....sure.......instructor provider agreements are important....ARC certifies you as and instructor....they want their money and they want you to follow their rules......AHA not so much....at least when I was an AHA instructor in the military (the ARC started demanding "cost recovery" from military unit instructor providers).   So I know how that works.

But again.......this issue is not CAP saying you can't do it....but the Certifying agencies telling their instructors they can't do it.

Once again.....not "clear" that CAP can't provide first aid training.

[Panache]

My problem with HMRS....is not the bling.....but the amount of bling.....ranger tab....okay.  Ranger Tab, ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, etc, et al....little much.

In HMRS's defense, other than the tab, all the other bling (ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, orange "keystone" caps, etc.) are strictly for use at HMRS only.  Once you get out of HMRS, the only bling you're authorized to wear on your BDUs/BBDUs is your ranger tab and the Hawk Mountain activity patch.

[lordmonar]

My problem with HMRS....is not the bling.....but the amount of bling.....ranger tab....okay.  Ranger Tab, ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, etc, et al....little much.

In HMRS's defense, other than the tab, all the other bling (ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, orange "keystone" caps, etc.) are strictly for use at HMRS only.  Once you get out of HMRS, the only bling you're authorized to wear on your BDUs/BBDUs is your ranger tab and the Hawk Mountain activity patch.

Sorry not true.......at least policy is that they are only at HMRS....we all know that it does come off the mountain.   Second......even if it stayed on the mountain......It still is too silly for words.....I'm a bling guy....I got nothing against showing off in front of your peers and the girls love a man in uniform.....but really.....all that stuff is just too much.  You can't defend it in my eyes.

[Panache]

Sorry not true.......at least policy is that they are only at HMRS....we all know that it does come off the mountain.   Second......even if it stayed on the mountain......It still is too silly for words.....I'm a bling guy....I got nothing against showing off in front of your peers and the girls love a man in uniform.....but really.....all that stuff is just too much.  You can't defend it in my eyes.

Speaking from personal experience as somebody who's in PAWG and has no particular love for HMRS, I've never seen anybody wearing "Hawk Bling" other than the activity patch and ranger tab when "off the Mountain".  So, no, we all don't know that it comes off the mountain.

And, again, I tend to agree with you about the ascots and pistol belt being silly at HMRS, but, hey, it seems to work at getting people there.  So why not?

[lordmonar]

Sorry not true.......at least policy is that they are only at HMRS....we all know that it does come off the mountain.   Second......even if it stayed on the mountain......It still is too silly for words.....I'm a bling guy....I got nothing against showing off in front of your peers and the girls love a man in uniform.....but really.....all that stuff is just too much.  You can't defend it in my eyes.

Speaking from personal experience as somebody who's in PAWG and has no particular love for HMRS, I've never seen anybody wearing "Hawk Bling" other than the activity patch and ranger tab when "off the Mountain".  So, no, we all don't know that it comes off the mountain.

And, again, I tend to agree with you about the ascots and pistol belt being silly at HMRS, but, hey, it seems to work at getting people there.  So why not?

The "off the mountain" usually happens outside of PAWG.....and yes I too don't get too bent over all of the bling....because as you say....it gets people there.

[Larry Mangum]

For the record....I agree with Eclipse that we need to drop all the "medic" ratings......HMRS and at this Pathfinder School....as well as at NESA.
That does not mean we should not be offering advanced first aid courses.....so long as they stay in the area of lay person skills.   

But when you start making a "medic" rating as a stand alone rating....then that implies that you are going to be doing the duties of a "medic" which to the lay person is someone who provides medical services to others in the field....which we are forbidden to do.   

We are not a medical provider.....and "medic" implies that we are.

So.......by all means let's do the advanced/wilderness/First Responder First Aid courses.....but let's not have a rating that says "medic" because we can't do that.


P.S.   I think CAP needs to get off the dime on this issue and write some rules so we can be a medical/emt/medic provider......it is pretty lame where you say you are SAR agency who can't treat anything that is not life threatening.  YMMV/

NESA, offers a Wilderness Advance First Aid course, it does not turn out "Medic's"  Nor does it claim to create field medics.

[JeffDG]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained and registered by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

So, your definition of "CAP Regulations Clearly Prohibit this" is:
CAP regulations point to some other regulations, which point to OSHA regulations which point to a number of certified providers, which, if you read their agreements with their instructors, prohibits this.

I would suggest that you and I have vastly different definitions for "clearly"