Pathfinder Technical School

[LSThiker]

But......bottom line.   CAP can provide first aid training.  We are free to use any and all skills to save a life.   We should not be advertising ourselves as a medical provider.....so CAP Medic, CAP EMT, CAP First Aid Provider.....are all titles that could imply that we are medical providers....and we should avoid doing that.

See above to this point.  I agree that medic is an inappropriate use, but judging the whole program simply because of a title is inappropriate.

Also, our advertising ourselves as search and RESCUE implies that we are medical providers to some people and we should also avoid doing that as well (not being sarcastic about that). 

[lordmonar]

For the record....I agree with Eclipse that we need to drop all the "medic" ratings......HMRS and at this Pathfinder School....as well as at NESA.
That does not mean we should not be offering advanced first aid courses.....so long as they stay in the area of lay person skills.   

But when you start making a "medic" rating as a stand alone rating....then that implies that you are going to be doing the duties of a "medic" which to the lay person is someone who provides medical services to others in the field....which we are forbidden to do.   

We are not a medical provider.....and "medic" implies that we are.

So.......by all means let's do the advanced/wilderness/First Responder First Aid courses.....but let's not have a rating that says "medic" because we can't do that.


P.S.   I think CAP needs to get off the dime on this issue and write some rules so we can be a medical/emt/medic provider......it is pretty lame where you say you are SAR agency who can't treat anything that is not life threatening.  YMMV/

I have no problem with dropping the term "medic" and agree that medic is a bad choice for terminology.  However, judging a program or curriculum based on the term "medic" and calling it unnecessary is inappropriate.

Oh...I'm right with you!  Eclipse jumped the gun about it....he's got a point about the "medic" name....but the training or expectations being unnecessary or inappropriate is hypocrisy at its best!   

[LSThiker]

The regs are clear that members can't provide training internally to others members.

To comply with requirements, you have to get it externally.

Again, you have evidence that the program is not using an external source?

[sarmed1]

LST

If it says "medic" it's a nonstarter, period.

As to HSOs or anyone else, if they are doing First Aid training, it has to be under the auspices of a different organization
while the PowerPoint's are running. 

Members are not allowed to provide First Aid training as members.

as a side bar conversation:  I can t seem to find that reference in the CAPR's.
Maybe you could help direct the rest of us

(I agree members cant make up their own training... ie" I am an EMT so im gonna teach ya'll a few things.....")

mk

[Eclipse]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

[lordmonar]

But......bottom line.   CAP can provide first aid training.  We are free to use any and all skills to save a life.   We should not be advertising ourselves as a medical provider.....so CAP Medic, CAP EMT, CAP First Aid Provider.....are all titles that could imply that we are medical providers....and we should avoid doing that.

See above to this point.  I agree that medic is an inappropriate use, but judging the whole program simply because of a title is inappropriate.

Also, our advertising ourselves as search and RESCUE implies that we are medical providers to some people and we should also avoid doing that as well (not being sarcastic about that).

I agree with you....CAP needs to fix that...and at least work our some way that we can be a true Rescue organization and provide at least EMT level treatment......but as I said elsewhere....the laws governing that are so varied...we would have to invest in a couple of full time professionals to work that out....and there is just no money for it.

[LSThiker]

nowhere in most wings would one need to walk 10 miles with full 24 gear.

I understand that you said most wings, but for states that have long distance hiking trails (JMT, Ozarks, PCT, etc), it is entirely possible if CAP were to get agreements with the Park Services. 

[LSThiker]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

[Eclipse]

Lots of things are "possible", most, like hiking 10 miles for a SAR in CAP are highly unlikely.

[lordmonar]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

I just looked.....and nowhere did I find that says that CAP CAN"T provide first aid training.

What it does say.......is that First Aid Training is "normally" given by outside agencies......"normally" implies that in other then "normal" situations then it can be given by indie agencies.

No definition of what a normal or abnormal situation is......so I guess they leave it up to squadron ES training officers.

[LSThiker]

Lots of things are "possible", most, like hiking 10 miles for a SAR in CAP are highly unlikely.

Since I am not a member of MOWG, perhaps they get called in often to help with the Ozarks trail and the Mark Twain National Forest.  So for MOWG, it may be likely. 

[lordmonar]

LST

If it says "medic" it's a nonstarter, period.

As to HSOs or anyone else, if they are doing First Aid training, it has to be under the auspices of a different organization
while the PowerPoint's are running. 

Members are not allowed to provide First Aid training as members.

as a side bar conversation:  I can t seem to find that reference in the CAPR's.
Maybe you could help direct the rest of us

(I agree members cant make up their own training... ie" I am an EMT so im gonna teach ya'll a few things.....")

mk

Actuallly....they can.   

f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities. The only type of medical aid that should be administered by CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering. This treatment must be executed by a person qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level. When first aid or higher medical training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings. CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any care provided is at the members own risk. Though medical supplies and equipment are not normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided.

Anyone can write a first aid program.....and if it meets these guidelines.....it is good to go.

[Eclipse]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained and registered by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

[LSThiker]

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
Is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

You still have not answered my question, you have evidence they are not using an external source for this course?

[lordmonar]

On the 10 mile thing.....if you TEST at 10 miles....you now have an upper limit of what your Pathfinder can handle.

If your typical mission IS 10 miles....then I would TEST at 20 miles.

Kind of like pilot training.......normally we never have an engine out.......but sometimes we do....so guess what's on the test?

Plan for the worst, hope for best.....live with what you got!

I used to be an ARC CPR/First Aid/Swimming/Lifeguard instructor.   I have literally certified thousands of people in CPR.......maybe....maybe 10 have ever had to use it.   So we train and test for worst case scenario and move on from there.

Also on the PT test thing....I really do think that it is a good idea and should be implemented nationally.  Passing the GT Physical Ability Assessment should be a per-req for starting GTM3 training.

YMMV

[husker]

For the record....I agree with Eclipse that we need to drop all the "medic" ratings......HMRS and at this Pathfinder School....as well as at NESA.
That does not mean we should not be offering advanced first aid courses.....so long as they stay in the area of lay person skills.   

It may be semantics, but the course at NESA is not a "medic" course, but an ECSI Wilderness Advanced First Aid course.

[lordmonar]

60-3 quoted about a centillion times here.

Although I am sure it will be debated, the quote does not say it is required, just that it is expected and normally given by external agencies.  It does not say CAP cannot. 

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

See Page 18 for the actual >requirments< for the training.  Then read the OSHA regs.
It is not possible to comply unless you are trained and registered by a certifying body (I.e.ARC, etc) and it
is a violation of the instructor regulations of these bodies to provide instruction that is not
Certified under their rules.

Ergo.

No...not ERGO.....you said it was "CLEAR"  In that I would not have to know the ins and outs of OSHA regs and the intricacies of provider agreements etc, and so forth........so.....it is NOT clear.   And if.....IF Senior Member XMAN, certified by the We Provide First Aid Training INC....the issue is not between CAP and Senior Member XMAN....but Mr XMANd and WPFAT, inc.

Also remember.......GTM3 requires you to receive the training.......it does not say be certified.     Remember that argument?

[sarmed1]

drift right....
I would be interested in seeing how this school works out. This school had a pretty impressive reputation WIWAC and my early senior years.  The curriculum I saw at the time filled a void that it seemed was lacking; the limited info from the skill sheets seems to be comparable.

Purely out of curiosity, I would like to see an expanded explanation of the some of the specific skills.
Skill specific-what are the basic and advanced knots.  Low angle rope rescue, is this a "Pathfinder" provider course or something they are obtaining from another source?  Same thing for Confined Space Awareness (since it doesnt have an "agency" reference)

MK

[lordmonar]

For the record....I agree with Eclipse that we need to drop all the "medic" ratings......HMRS and at this Pathfinder School....as well as at NESA.
That does not mean we should not be offering advanced first aid courses.....so long as they stay in the area of lay person skills.   

It may be semantics, but the course at NESA is not a "medic" course, but an ECSI Wilderness Advanced First Aid course.

Yes I know....but when I went there in 2006 they all called it the "medic" course....that may have changed.....and will stand corrected if so.

[husker]

Yes.  When the course was first started, it was referred to as a "First Responder" medic course. After discussions very similar to what is occurring in this thread, the course name  and curriculum were changed to the more appropriate Wilderness Advanced First Aid curriculum.  I may be wrong, but I believe the change happened in 2008.