Firearms & GT (Split from NYPD Aux. thread)

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with DNall.  Arming qualified officers with a survival firearm is a prudent idea. 

There are some alternatives:

1.  The old .38 revolver sidearm.  Good for snakes and varmints, both two and four legged.  Will also work on most small-to-medium alligators.  Don't use it on a bear.  It will make the bear mad at you.

2.  The Henry Survival Rifle.  .22 caliber, semi-auto, breaks down and folds into its own stock.  Good for snakes and rats, not good for 4-legged varmints, and better than nothing on two-legged varmints.  I don't think it would have any effect at all on 'gators and bears.

3.  M1911A1 .45 caliber semi auto.  Will kill everything, including small bears.  Big bears, no.

[aveighter]

Big bears require repeat application.

[DNall]

got a sig I like pretty well.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I like the Sig.  I carried one for many years, once the police department transitioned to semi-autos from wheelguns.  But I am not impressed with the 9mm round.  It is, in my opinion, one notch above a bb gun.  Maybe not even a full notch.

I have personally seen thugs take up to nine hits in the torso with the 9mm, and still fire at police.  I saw one take three torso hits and three groin hits, and was still firing until he was hit with a 12-guage shotgun loaded with single 0 buckshot.

I had some dope dealers turn a German Shepherd on me once.  I hit the dog 3 times with the 9mm, and my partner hit it once.  Four 9mm hits, and there was NO effect on the dog.

I could get to like a .40-caliber from what I've heard, but I've never been in a gunfight with one.

[Al Sayre]

I've got a couple of .40 S&W Glocks that I'm pretty happy with...

[DrJbdm]

I carry a 357sig round in my Glock. I'm wanting to change it to a 40 cal. I just think it's a better round.

  I have a few issues in CAP as I'm sure most of the other Police Officers in CAP have as well. We can and should and in a few cases have to carry a weapon on us off duty. I know my Department has stopped short of actually saying you shall carry off duty but the policy says you should highly consider it. I personally don't go anywhere unarmed, I have been in shooting situations already and I darn sure won't be caught in one unarmed. I personally think NHQ should specify that Police Officers may carry there off duty weapon with them in the field.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I carry a 357sig round in my Glock. I'm wanting to change it to a 40 cal. I just think it's a better round.

  I have a few issues in CAP as I'm sure most of the other Police Officers in CAP have as well. We can and should and in a few cases have to carry a weapon on us off duty. I know my Department has stopped short of actually saying you shall carry off duty but the policy says you should highly consider it. I personally don't go anywhere unarmed, I have been in shooting situations already and I darn sure won't be caught in one unarmed. I personally think NHQ should specify that Police Officers may carry there off duty weapon with them in the field.

John:

As far as I know, the only place CAP members can be armed is Alaska.  I do not concur with that regulation.  There are hazards faced by CAP ground teams and to a lesser extent by aircrews that would be alleviated by selectively authorizing firearms.  I would not limit it to police officers, but rather to any person authoized to carry a weapon within the state.  I might also add a recent re-qualification at a military/NRA/police range as well, at least every two years.

This could be annotated on the 101 card.  Once the state credentials and re-qual were verified. 

[DNall]

I carry a 357sig round in my Glock. I'm wanting to change it to a 40 cal. I just think it's a better round.

  I have a few issues in CAP as I'm sure most of the other Police Officers in CAP have as well. We can and should and in a few cases have to carry a weapon on us off duty. I know my Department has stopped short of actually saying you shall carry off duty but the policy says you should highly consider it. I personally don't go anywhere unarmed, I have been in shooting situations already and I darn sure won't be caught in one unarmed. I personally think NHQ should specify that Police Officers may carry there off duty weapon with them in the field.

As far as I know, the only place CAP members can be armed is Alaska.  I do not concur with that regulation.  There are hazards faced by CAP ground teams and to a lesser extent by aircrews that would be alleviated by selectively authorizing firearms.  I would not limit it to police officers, but rather to any person authoized to carry a weapon within the state.  I might also add a recent re-qualification at a military/NRA/police range as well, at least every two years.

This is a lot like the medical situation where states require a Dr/nurse/emt to render aid within the limits of their training or risk license, civil & criminal charges. Yet CAP says "NO" because of liability concerns.

Obviously a lot of LE agencies require or recommend off-duty carry. The point there being you are a LEO all the time. However, if you went on guard/reserve duty (title 10 lets say) that would not be the case. Still, I think CAP should recognize the requirement of those officers to go armed & allow them to do so, with the requirement that they not excercise LE powers while in CAP uniform (take off the BDU blouse "before" you shoot back).

I do also think it's appropriate to allow 21+ adults to carry concealed within the bounds of state licenses, while maintaining the same no assistance to LE rules. Specify real clearly that being armed is for self defense from wildlife or survival situations, and that brandishing or use outside that situation will get you hung out to dry.

[A.Member]

Specify real clearly that being armed is for self defense from wildlife or survival situations...

Is this seriously a concern?  Do we have that many issues with members in downed aircraft fending off wild animals?  Have we ever had such an issue?  There are weak arguments and then there are weak arguments.

If you want people to be able to carry their own weapons, isn't it a better argument to simply say, "Hey, I went through state sponsored/approved training to carry this firearm at any time - this should not need to be an exception!"?   

Personally, I just still don't see the need given our current missions.

[DNall]

There was a story on here a few months ago from a member, I forget who, who came up on a crash scene years ago. Believe it was four aboard, 3 unable to exit the plane, and one little girl a hundred years up a hill fighting off cyotes with a stick. He helped the girl while the rest of the team went for the plane. Now, I wasn't there, I'm just relaying to the best of my recollection what someone else said.

What I do know though is there are a lot of places in my state where it isn't safe to be w/o the ability to defend yourself. Some of those involve wildlife, pochers (game warden just killed a few days ago by automatic rifle fire), transhippment of narcotics or other things. We go on internationally flagged vessels. The border is a whole huge extra layer where you don't realize you're stepping into the middle of a private little civil war till you're in it. In certain urban situations or when penetrating private property we do our best to have LE escort us, but that isn't always possible. I have no desire to act as LE or take anything but defensive action when there is no other choice, but I'd at least like that choice. And I got no problem signing a liability waiver or whatever else is required to take care of my people if the  situation arises. The issue is not that it is likely, but that it is forseeable & doing nothing is irresponsible.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Back in the 60's a Florida Wing GT leader shot and killed an Eastern Diamondback while searching for a downed plane.  It used to be that the officers could carry sidearms at their option, based on the environmental threat.  I'm not sure what standards were applied.

Carrying sidearms does appear prudent.

There are areas in Ohio where we would not post ground teams because of the threat posed by drug growers and/or smugglers.  Some airfields were known to be drop off points for drugs, and ELT's were only followed up from the air.  Encountering dangerous predators (4-legged, 2-legged, or no-legged) can happen anywhere.

Which would you rather read about?

"CAP Search Team Officer Shoots Child Predator"

"CAP Cadet, 14, Kidnapped and Murdered While Searching For Lost Plane"

[SAR-EMT1]

My squadron meets in "THE METRH CAPITOL OF THE WORLD" - as according to the IL State Police. More Meth and Crack come out of Coles County Illinois then any other place in America... Sometimes me thinks this is the reason we don't run GT missions in these parts.

If I'm given the option Ill carry the largest caliber allowed, just so long as its not a Glock (personal bias)

The Aux. Police in this area are REQUIRED to carry. (And most have larger calibers then the Regular Deputies) - trend is for .40 S&W vs 9m Glock

[DrJbdm]

as a LEO you're never without police powers and would be regulated by state laws to take action in some cases. Note that the Texas Code of Criminal Procedures makes no distinction as to "off duty" or "on duty".

  As a LEO, even if in a CAP uniform, there are times in which I or any other Peace Officer may be force to act as a LEO. In such a situation there would be no time to remove the CAP uniform before acting as such. These types of situations are not very likely to come up often but the world we live in is changing, it's not the same safe place it once was. We have to adapt to the changing world around us. 

  Now according to CAPR 900-3, CAP members who are full authority Peace Officers can receive "permission" to carry a weapon while in CAP uniform. Can anyone shed any light on this reg? it's intents and it's requirements?

  Either way, I believe that ground team members and flight crews should be allowed to carry a side arm in a survival bag, As long as all Federal/State laws where followed. (I would make that side arm readily available in the survival bag) As for flight crews I would also include a .22 rifle that folds. That should be standard equipment in all flight survival bags, You never know what you are going to encounter in an off airport landing. 

[DNall]

As a LEO, even if in a CAP uniform, there are times in which I or any other Peace Officer may be force to act as a LEO. In such a situation there would be no time to remove the CAP uniform before acting as such. These types of situations are not very likely to come up often but the world we live in is changing, it's not the same safe place it once was. We have to adapt to the changing world around us. 

I meant shoot the guy, then take off your BDU blouse before the cops get there. Not that the uniform would matter a lot when on an AFAM.

Anyway, when on AFAM, you are legally a civilian employee of the Dept of the AF, and boubd by things like PCA... meaning you cannot excercise LE powers. It's the same situations if you were on duty as a reservist. The federal law takes precedent over state law, inlucing your peace officer commission.

Now according to CAPR 900-3, CAP members who are full authority Peace Officers can receive "permission" to carry a weapon while in CAP uniform. Can anyone shed any light on this reg? it's intents and it's requirements?

Don't know anything about that. I would imagine it pertains ONLY to situations where your dept explicitly requires you to remain armed at all times. I know a lot of LEOs in CAP & haven't ever heard of anyone having permission to carry a firearm. Many have one in the car though & would sacrifice the CAP membership if the situation required.

Either way, I believe that ground team members and flight crews should be allowed to carry a side arm in a survival bag, As long as all Federal/State laws where followed. (I would make that side arm readily available in the survival bag) As for flight crews I would also include a .22 rifle that folds. That should be standard equipment in all flight survival bags, You never know what you are going to encounter in an off airport landing. 

or what you may walk up on as a GTL. It's a vERY tricky subject, but I personally think it's irresponsible not to work it out.

[Lancer]

There was a story on here a few months ago from a member, I forget who, who came up on a crash scene years ago. Believe it was four aboard, 3 unable to exit the plane, and one little girl a hundred years up a hill fighting off cyotes with a stick.

Are Cyotes some futuristic predator? Since they had to go 100 years up the hill and all...

[JC004]

A .44 Magnum would be sooo much more fun than a .22 LR survival rifle.     I love my Springfield XD-40, though.  As much as I don't like to leave it lonely at home when doing a CAP thing, I don't have a strong opinion either way on carrying like this.  When I was a cadidiot, I would have strongly favored cadets carrying firearms to revolt against the seniors.   

[RiverAux]

I have worked in all sorts of remote areas all over the country, mostly by myself and not once have I ever come across a situation where a firearm was necessary.  I'm a hunter and use guns all the time for recreational purposes, but they aren't something you need to survive in the woods.  Alaska would probably be the only exception where a gun would actually be of use as there would be a very real possibility of being on your own for weeks if something went wrong.  Thats just not the case anywhere in the rest of the US.

Regarding snakes -- you are probably more likely to get bit while maneuvering to get a shot at the snake that you would if you just got the heck out of the area when you saw it.

If you really want to start getting into pi**ing matches with your local sheriffs and LEOs, start having CAP teams carry weapons in their towns and counties. 

Now, frankly I don't really care if some police department requires their officers to carry weapons at all times.  If that conflicts with CAP regulations, then they shouldn't join CAP.   If my employer required me to carry a weapon for whatever reason, should CAP honor that as well?  I'd be sorry to lose them, but I don't believe that is a valid reason to change CAP regs and open up the can of worms that it would. 

[carnold1836]

Alaska would probably be the only exception where a gun would actually be of use as there would be a very real possibility of being on your own for weeks if something went wrong.  Thats just not the case anywhere in the rest of the US.

Never been to west Texas much have you, or possibly the mountains of Montana and Idaho. These areas are rife with large predators such as mountain lions grizzly bears and wolves, much like Alaska.

I can get out on a US highway in west Texas and not see anyone for hours on end. Now think about getting off that road by about 20 miles and there is a distinct chance you won't see anyone for the rest of you life if no one is looking for you. And if they are it could be weeks before they run across your half eaten carcass baking in the high noon day sun.

[davedove]

Alaska would probably be the only exception where a gun would actually be of use as there would be a very real possibility of being on your own for weeks if something went wrong.  Thats just not the case anywhere in the rest of the US.

Never been to west Texas much have you, or possibly the mountains of Montana and Idaho. These areas are rife with large predators such as mountain lions grizzly bears and wolves, much like Alaska.

You don't even have to go out west.  There are plenty of bear encounters in the Appalachian regions.  The best response is to avoid them, but they are there.  Sometimes they even wonder into town.

[Pylon]

FYI
I split this line of discussion from the NYPD Aux. thread as best as possible, since the topic really developed its own sidebar discussion.  Carry on.