First Aid Responder

[SARMedTech]

If CAP doesn't have a medical component, then it should stop recruiting saying that it does. If its not up to speed with the way that SAR operations are run, it shouldn't so  frequently say that it conducts 85% of the inland SARs for the USAF. Its time to live up to what we say we can do. If we say we can do it, the other organizations we work with will be expecting us to and relying on us for it and its going to be a big problem when we show up and don't have the slightest clue what to do.

CAP doesn't say anything about having a medical component in any of the recruiting material that I can recall.  Maybe individual members or squadrons are saying such a thing, and if so they shouldn't.  What we do say, as you mentioned, is that we perform inland search & rescue for the USAF, and we do that.  How are we not living up to that commitment?  As far as I know, CAP has never declined to search for any missing aircraft when we have been requested through proper channels to do so.

What I do see is some people identifying an expertise that they have and wanting that expertise recognized and integrated into what CAP does.  EMS is only one area of emergency services that has been mentioned in the past.  Others have wanted to incorporate other skill sets into CAP ES.  There isn't anything wrong with having those discussions.  I think the question we need to ask ourselves is what are CAP's ES missions, what skill sets are required for those missions, and are those missions something CAP can do better than other organizations.  There are other specialties that CAP could integrate into our operations, the question is can the USAF be convinced that there is a need for CAP to perform them.

Check the specialty listing on the Prospective Member Information Pamphlet sent out by HQ

[Ned]

There are many flaws in your argument.

1. You are trying to quote a number that would include every single member of CAP being covered by liability insurance as an EMT/Medic. I doubt that every member has an interest in EMS. What most of those of us who desire to see this change are proposing is a CAP medical corp.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.  I was referencing the number of CAP members to show the size of the "dues base" available to pay the malpractice insurance for our medically licensed folks.  I certainly agree that only a few % of our members are licensed medical folks.

2. There are EMS malpractice insurers who operate in all 50 states. The cover EMTs of all sorts based on the protocols in those different states.

Exactly.  But it is more expensive to cover someone for multiple states than for a single state due to differing licensure and scope-of-practice issues.

3. All EMTs and Medics provide high risk procedures. I have done riskier things in the back of a moving ambulance than I would ever do in the field and quite frankly, having a patient on a drag stretcher and trying to drop and breathing tube is much easier.

While all medics by definition do emergency work, that is certainly not true for docs and nurses.  (Which, BTW will be the most expensive part of the policy, not the medics.)

The malpractice premiums for physicians vary widely among specialties and locations.  THe difference between an OB-GYN in NYC and a GP in Montana is hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

4. The "dues" you might need to raise to cover what we will for now call the CAP medical corps would not have to be paid by everyone, just those who wished to provide emergency medical care in the field.

Ouch.  I suspect that would severely limit the number of docs who'd volunteer if they knew their dues could be tens of thousands of dollars a year more than mine.

5. Any doctor that would be involved (say as a remote medical director) would have his own insurance and I seriously doubt that we need chiropractors in the field, so that particular argument is moot. We're not talking about treating people for sciatica here, we are talking about saving lives through EMS. Youre comparing apples and oranges. Also, while perhaps their might be a need for an RN in the field, LVNs are not the most common practitioners of emergency medicine.

Ahh, but as others have pointed out, most docs are not sole practicioners these days.  Most practice for a group or a corporation.  And those malpractice policies are almost always limited to the practice of the entity paying for it.  Which makes sense.  Why would the Smalltown Physicians Group, Inc. pay for a malpractice rider for one of their docs so she/he could be part of the CAP EMS?

And the discussion is wider than just field medicine.  Cadet Programs folks would love to have a medical professional at encampments or NCSAs to help triage and treat the inevitable injuries and illnesses that arise at any challenging activity.

That's where your podiatrists and DCs come in.

6. If it wished to do so, the USAF could cover CAP EMTs and Medics during the time that we are operational for them.

Yup, they sure could.  But this leads to all sorts of problems with the whole AUX ON/AUX OFF thing as well as USAF oversight and licensing.  If I were the USAF, I doubt I'd cover any medical professional unless I'd had a chance to train or at least evaluate their training periodically.  A whole new CAP beauracracy . . . .

I hope I've addressed the "flaws" in my post.   

[SARMedTech]

There are many flaws in your argument.

1. You are trying to quote a number that would include every single member of CAP being covered by liability insurance as an EMT/Medic. I doubt that every member has an interest in EMS. What most of those of us who desire to see this change are proposing is a CAP medical corp.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.  I was referencing the number of CAP members to show the size of the "dues base" available to pay the malpractice insurance for our medically licensed folks.  I certainly agree that only a few % of our members are licensed medical folks.

2. There are EMS malpractice insurers who operate in all 50 states. The cover EMTs of all sorts based on the protocols in those different states.

Exactly.  But it is more expensive to cover someone for multiple states than for a single state due to differing licensure and scope-of-practice issues.

3. All EMTs and Medics provide high risk procedures. I have done riskier things in the back of a moving ambulance than I would ever do in the field and quite frankly, having a patient on a drag stretcher and trying to drop and breathing tube is much easier.

While all medics by definition do emergency work, that is certainly not true for docs and nurses.  (Which, BTW will be the most expensive part of the policy, not the medics.)

The malpractice premiums for physicians vary widely among specialties and locations.  THe difference between an OB-GYN in NYC and a GP in Montana is hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

4. The "dues" you might need to raise to cover what we will for now call the CAP medical corps would not have to be paid by everyone, just those who wished to provide emergency medical care in the field.

Ouch.  I suspect that would severely limit the number of docs who'd volunteer if they knew their dues could be tens of thousands of dollars a year more than mine.

5. Any doctor that would be involved (say as a remote medical director) would have his own insurance and I seriously doubt that we need chiropractors in the field, so that particular argument is moot. We're not talking about treating people for sciatica here, we are talking about saving lives through EMS. Youre comparing apples and oranges. Also, while perhaps their might be a need for an RN in the field, LVNs are not the most common practitioners of emergency medicine.

Ahh, but as others have pointed out, most docs are not sole practicioners these days.  Most practice for a group or a corporation.  And those malpractice policies are almost always limited to the practice of the entity paying for it.  Which makes sense.  Why would the Smalltown Physicians Group, Inc. pay for a malpractice rider for one of their docs so she/he could be part of the CAP EMS?

And the discussion is wider than just field medicine.  Cadet Programs folks would love to have a medical professional at encampments or NCSAs to help triage and treat the inevitable injuries and illnesses that arise at any challenging activity.

That's where your podiatrists and DCs come in.

6. If it wished to do so, the USAF could cover CAP EMTs and Medics during the time that we are operational for them.

Yup, they sure could.  But this leads to all sorts of problems with the whole AUX ON/AUX OFF thing as well as USAF oversight and licensing.  If I were the USAF, I doubt I'd cover any medical professional unless I'd had a chance to train or at least evaluate their training periodically.  A whole new CAP beauracracy . . . .

I hope I've addressed the "flaws" in my post.   

Forgive me if I dont address what youve said in as orderly a fashion as you did:

Medical Directors for EMS are required to be established ER physicians working in a hospital or trauma center, not in Smalltown Medical Group. They are covered when advising us just as if they were treating the patient themselves. Their premiums do not go up because they are authorizing EMTs to do things in the field.

I am not suggesting that EMTs in CAP would practice in multiple states. That would involve the EMTs themselves holding multiple licensures.

Perhaps podiatrists, since there are lots of sore feet at encampments and exercises, but I see very little need for chiropractors in those settings or in the emergent medical setting of a live SAR sortie.

Doctors already have medical malpractice insurance and licenses. EMTs and Medics operate under that doctors ( the aformentioned medical directors) license, which is why EMT malpractice insurance is relatively inexpensive, especially when provided for an agency, rather than for a specific EMT.

As far as AUX on Aux off, I have suggested repeatedly that these EMTs would operate as EMTs and be covered only when acting as " force augmenters" for the AF. And the regs already say that medical professionals like EMTs are already credentialled and licensed and that no further credentialling by the AF or CAP would be necessary, merely a record of that EMS providers licenses and certificaions.

[PA Guy]

Here are some other things to think about:

Even at the first responder level:  a person must be 18 to get this level of certification. Thats DOT/DHTSA regs.

So out of the 60k members, you could eliminate those cadets who are too young. The you can eliminate those that have no interest in EMS. Then you can eliminate those that for whatever reason cannot meet the physical requirements necessary for an EMS license (generally being able to lift 150 pounds by youself). The you can eliminate those folks who are not ground pounders, IE those who work in misson bases.  So the 60k number (IE certifying and insuring the entire membership) is a fallacy. Also, as I say, MDs have their own malpractice which covers them when they are working as medical directors and medical directors are not generally in the field. Many RN's work under the liability of whatever organization, hospital, hospice they work for and quite frankly, other than flight nurses (CAP has no aircraft equipped for acute trauma transport that I know of) or nurses who are also EMTs of one level or another, this number is relatively small. As I also said, you can take Chiros out of the equation because i have yet to see a chiropractor work a trauma scene with me. Same the DO's. I could go on and on, but I think you are getting the point. Nobody is talking about making everyone in CAP an EMT, but rather  covering those who are and developing a "CAP Corpsman" program so that the badges and patches we wear actually mean something instead of just being more shiny bling.

How much are gliders and hot air balloons used for SAR activities or transport time sensitive materials? Perhaps there could be some cuts in those programs. I have nothing against either of them, I just wonder how practical they are.

No EMS Agency in CA has a physical capacity requirement for certification. Physicians in solo practice have their own malpractice but would have to add a rider for CAP that would drive up their premium. Physicians in group practices are generally covered by the group policy only while working directly for the group. This also applies to RNs, PAs etc. Their hospital, hospice or whatever only covers them when they are on the hospital, hospices clock. So to be covered those folks would need a separate policy through CAP. Even if only 600 people in CAP wanted to participate in the program it would still be a sizeable chunk of change by the time all the EMT, Physicians, Nurses and others were included. That would only include the personal liability it wouldn't include the corporate liability.  Remember, they aren't just going to sue you they will also go after CAP, Inc. The only way CAP will ever be involved in EMS is if they are taken under the federal umbrella like the DMATs. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Well, first off, at least one EMS provider in CA has a physical requirement...An agency called AMR. They require their EMTs to be able to lift 150 lbs by themselves and 225 with the aide of their partner. I also happen to know that the medics that work for LAFD have this requirement except I think their weight requirements are higher.

First off, doctors in hospices, etc are not going to be providing medical control for EMS providers. Each EMS region throughout the country has a Medical Director who supervises and shuffles the paper for what goes on in that EMS region. The medical control comes from doctors, often hospitalists, who work only in the emergency room and pick up the phone when a crew is coming to their facility and needs permission to push a certain drug, perform a certain procedure, etc...many of which are covered by standing orders and do not require permission. Physicians in group practices do not (read are not allowed in IL) to provide EMS medical control. The physician providing this assistance to the crews has to be board certified in Emergency/Trauma Medicine.

To give you an idea...we have a new ambulance company here in my home town that was started by two medics in an old airplane hanger. The got registered with dispatch and they get medical assistance by calling into the hospitals and saying "hey we need a doctor." I think one thing you fail to understand is that I am not talking about EMTs out their putting burr holes in peoples skulls, what I am talking about is EMTs on GTs performing within their scope of practice (actually no EMT or Medic has a scope of practice as this would indicate that they operate autonomously, which they do not...rather they have protocols.)  I'm talking about EMTs on GTs performing BLS/BTLS within their protocols to effectively AND safely stabilize a patient  and be able to monitor that patient and report findings ACCURATELY  until the main EMS agency arrives.

You say some people live and some people die...I am keenly aware of this. I had a patient die in my hands on March 24th. But that doesn't mean that when there is an option to prevent this from happening that there shouldn't be a system in place to stabilize that patient, which after all, is what EMS does in the first place. Its a fallacy that EMS practices emergency medicine. We provide emergency medical interventions and there is a huge difference. I'm talking about things like when a cadet goes into anaphylaxis from a bee sting, that we could start a nasal pharyngeal airway and give low does epinephrine.....both stabilizing measures which might save that patient until a full blown EMS crew gets there. Or the possibility of being able to place a dual lumen airway in the patients throat to provide them with an airway. I know money is a concern. Money is a concern in any situation. But do you think that SAR cant open CAP up to liability when someone says "Hey, why wasn't my wife put in a c-collar before you put her in that basket stretcher to carry her to the road?" See what we have here is a situation where CAP members are going to provide first aide that are not licensed to put their hands on patients, they're going to go too far and thats where CAP will get in trouble.

As for NIMS/ICS...they have very little to do with the practice of EMS from a medical standpoint. They are designed as organizational systems in the event of a mass casualty incident. Very little of what NIMS does other than establishing triage, has anything to do with the actual medicine. And its not spreading at the rate you think it is because some agencies refuse to use it because it is still in its infancy and will probably take at least another 5-10 years before it is a viable management system. The fact remains that SAR agencies, like those that CAP worked along side of on Mt. Hood last Christmas are EMS capable and ready to go. They have to be. Its not a matter of people not wanting to pay more dues. Its a matter of SAR meaning Search and Rescue and Rescue inherently carries with it a medical component. If you have a patient in the wreckage or a plain, you better think twice about moving them without a EMS component on your GT. 

Your arguments are all over the place. All of CAPS literature says that CAP performs 85% of SAR missions for the Air Force on inland sorties. How can you say that CAP has yet to perfect their SAR capabilities. If they save 500 lives a year as its stands now, how many would they save if they could provide on scene stabilization. Lets here the statistics of how many people are reached by CAP GTs and then die before they can be gotten to a medical facility. The fact is that CAP touts medical as one of its specialties and doesn't deliver. Giving hygiene and anti-drug lectures to cadets and seniors isn't where the real medical dollars need to be spent.

Maybe a claification of terms is needed. In my neck of the woods a EMS Agency is the govermental entitiy that regulates and certifies EMS providers. EMS Providers are the entities that provide EMS services, such as AMR and LAFD.  Providers are free to determine physical capacity requirements. The agencies are not.

You state that physicians who provide medical control are required to be certified in emergency medicine. Not so, I know of areas in the country where family practitioners moonlight in ERs. I live part time in a rural area of the country where the Medical Director for the local EMS Agency is a family practitioner in a group practice and the FP that I go to for care moonlights in an ER. Neither is certified in emergency medicine. Heck, the whole state only has one Level I Trauma Center. And yes, ER docs do work in groups. In CA one of the largest ER doc groups is Pacific Physician Services. Most ER docs in CA belong to a medical group that contracts with the hospital to provide physician coverage to their ER and those docs are either MDs or DOs.

The point of all of this is we can't even agree on common terms and how the  various EMS agencies and providers do business in all parts of the country. How would we run a coherent CAP EMS program based on local policy and regs. Being covered under the federal umbrella is the only way it could work in my view and the political will to do that doesn't exsist right now. You are going to drive yourself to distraction trying to change the current regs, but hey, they are your windmills.   

[PHall]

6. If it wished to do so, the USAF could cover CAP EMTs and Medics during the time that we are operational for them.

Hate to tell you, but the military can't get enough medical personnel to cover their own needs, much less reach out and cover CAP too.

[lordmonar]

6. If it wished to do so, the USAF could cover CAP EMTs and Medics during the time that we are operational for them.

Hate to tell you, but the military can't get enough medical personnel to cover their own needs, much less reach out and cover CAP too.

I think he ment...."cover" as in "liablity coverage" not "cover" as in provide USAF personnel to cover the requirment.

Heck CAP could cover them....we would just have to pay for it....standardise the training requirments and enforce the standards.  I just did a quick quote for malpractice insurese.  It cots only $104 per year for $1M per claim (up to 3 claims a year).

Heck that's cheaper than I thought!

[SARMedTech]

That is what I meant when I said cover and while I realize that $104/year is more expensive than current dues and would have to paid for somehow, it hardly comes up to the millions of dollars that previous posters have indicated.

Here in IL, MDs providing medical direction to EMS providers must be board certified in Emergency Medicine. And talking about a corporate group of emergency physicians (which we have here too) is different than talking about a little group of rural physicians. Of course differences exist but they are the exception rather than the rule. And there is no federal organization of EMS providers. This is what the NREMT had hoped to become and has failed at miserably for more than 20 years. I agree it would be the best thing that could happen to EMS, but we're not likely to see it any time soon, nor do I believe it is the only way that EMS personnel could work with CAP on more than a first aide level.

Also, another poster said the EMS personnel are required to render care if they are licensed. Not so. If I am licensed (which I am) but am off duty, I can see someone bleeding to death on the street and walk right by them. If I am not on duty, I have no "duty to act" and therefore cannot commit the crime of medical abandonment or failure to render medical care.

I think we have beaten this poor horse into glue. There are those of us who believe that it is possible and doable and those who dont. The only thing preventing it from being done are the current policies and ways of thinking at Corporate. If CAP were the full time AUX for the Air Force and not a non-profit corporation, the decision and process would be greatly streamlined. The only body with the authority to certify EMS personnel to practice in any state at any time is the US Military, though I have never mentioned have CAP EMS folks licensed to practice in all 50 states. The chances of me, an EMT from IL being asked to go to California and work with CAP on  something like SAR/DR is so miniscule as to be non-existent.

I was interested to see that Lordmonar had actually gained some real information and that it sort of disproves the idea that it is prohibitively expensive to cover CAP EMTs. I bet flight insurance costs more than $104/year. My final thoughts are if you are going to do something, do it right. Dont give medical personnel the uniform bling so that they can easily be recognized and then not give them the "tools" they need to do the job in emergent care situations.

[SARMedTech]

Oops. Sorry. One more thought. Not only does CAP list medical as one of the ways that people can get involved in their recruitment literature, when you fill out the request for information at CAP.gov, it asks what your interests are and one of the little boxes to check is "medical."

[ELTHunter]

Oops. Sorry. One more thought. Not only does CAP list medical as one of the ways that people can get involved in their recruitment literature, when you fill out the request for information at CAP.gov, it asks what your interests are and one of the little boxes to check is "medical."

Check the specialty listing on the Prospective Member Information Pamphlet sent out by HQ

Interesting, I hadn't realized that before.  While I am still a little skeptical about the need for a full fledged medical program in CAP (I think we (CAP) need to look at exactly how we fit into the ES world, and what our niche is versus the capability already existing in other agencies), I understand where you're coming from.  I agree that the organization shouldn't be presenting itself to members and/or potential members while limiting them in the performance of the very areas they might be recruited for.

I also believe CAP does write things into the reg to protect the Corporation while at the same time they probably expect that people will violate those regs to perform their work on occasion.  That's not right.  Although those other cases probably do not carry as much risk to the member as the medical case.

[PA Guy]

.
I was interested to see that Lordmonar had actually gained some real information and that it sort of disproves the idea that it is prohibitively expensive to cover CAP EMTs. I bet flight insurance costs more than $104/year. My final thoughts are if you are going to do something, do it right. Dont give medical personnel the uniform bling so that they can easily be recognized and then not give them the "tools" they need to do the job in emergent care situations.

But there are more than EMTs interested in this. Are you saying that all of the other providers should be excluded?  As a PA in CA my malpractice runs about 6K/yr. If I decided to participate in a CAP EMS program I would have to add that to my malpractice and the premium would rise accordingly. It's not just about EMTs.

[arajca]

Oops. Sorry. One more thought. Not only does CAP list medical as one of the ways that people can get involved in their recruitment literature, when you fill out the request for information at CAP.gov, it asks what your interests are and one of the little boxes to check is "medical."

Looking at the online "Civil Air Patrol New Membership Information Request Form, I don't see where the medical check box is.

The Prospective Member Information Package lists "Medical" in with the specialty tracks available. It also lists "Legal". Both of these are advisory positions. From CAPR 20-1,

Medical Officer
Responsible for advising CAP commanders and units on the health, sanitation and hygiene of CAP members relevant to CAP activities. (See CAPR 160-1 for policy on emergency medical treatment). They shall:
Assists the ES Officer in arranging or providing training in first aid and emergency lifesaving measures to include medically recognized cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) techniques.
Provide bloodborne pathogen protection training including preventive measures.
Report bloodborne pathogen exposures and ensure that those members exposed obtain appropriate follow-up medical care from non-CAP sources.
Advise members to obtain necessary physical examinations from their personal physicians and to complete emergency treatment consent forms where required by regulation to participate in various Civil Air Patrol activities. NOTE: Under no circumstances will CAP medical personnel perform physical examinations as part of their Civil Air Patrol duties.
Arrange for necessary medical training materials. Supplies and equipment for unit missions or special activities.
Maintain first aid kits for medical emergencies. (See CAPR 160-1 for policy on emergency medical treatment.)
Generally advise commanders and unit personnel on preventive medicine matters relevant to CAP activities.
Plan conferences and meetings pertaining to special affairs.
Medical officers should be familiar with all CAP directives in the 160 series and applicable portions of CAPRs 55-1, 50-15, 52-16, 50-17 and 62-2.

emphasis mine

[SARMedTech]

H*** no I am not saying that other health care providers should be excluded. The whole idea of all of this has been to provide cadets, SMs and the people we work with in the field competent and effective medical care. If a PA, doc or nurse wants to volunteer their time to hump an M3Alpha through the field with the EMTs, welcome to it. Im talking about EMTs because thats what I am. Because CAP says it wants us and does nothing to cover us from liability. They expect us to volunteer, give alot of our meager incomes to be able to do so and then not cover our butts when the spit hits the spam. If you want to be part of a GT medical team and helping to get CAP to create such an entity, I say "lets go."

[SARMedTech]

Oops. Sorry. One more thought. Not only does CAP list medical as one of the ways that people can get involved in their recruitment literature, when you fill out the request for information at CAP.gov, it asks what your interests are and one of the little boxes to check is "medical."

Looking at the online "Civil Air Patrol New Membership Information Request Form, I don't see where the medical check box is.

The Prospective Member Information Package lists "Medical" in with the specialty tracks available. It also lists "Legal". Both of these are advisory positions. From CAPR 20-1,

Medical Officer
Responsible for advising CAP commanders and units on the health, sanitation and hygiene of CAP members relevant to CAP activities. (See CAPR 160-1 for policy on emergency medical treatment). They shall:
Assists the ES Officer in arranging or providing training in first aid and emergency lifesaving measures to include medically recognized cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) techniques.
Provide bloodborne pathogen protection training including preventive measures.
Report bloodborne pathogen exposures and ensure that those members exposed obtain appropriate follow-up medical care from non-CAP sources.
Advise members to obtain necessary physical examinations from their personal physicians and to complete emergency treatment consent forms where required by regulation to participate in various Civil Air Patrol activities. NOTE: Under no circumstances will CAP medical personnel perform physical examinations as part of their Civil Air Patrol duties.
Arrange for necessary medical training materials. Supplies and equipment for unit missions or special activities.
Maintain first aid kits for medical emergencies. (See CAPR 160-1 for policy on emergency medical treatment.)
Generally advise commanders and unit personnel on preventive medicine matters relevant to CAP activities.
Plan conferences and meetings pertaining to special affairs.
Medical officers should be familiar with all CAP directives in the 160 series and applicable portions of CAPRs 55-1, 50-15, 52-16, 50-17 and 62-2.

emphasis mine

You are very right, in this case the mistake was mine. I thought I remembered checking "medical" in the online form. My apologies for the error. The fact remains, however, that on the Prospective Member Information Pamphlet  says "Medical" which is not followed by "advisory." The regs also say that medical personnel should render emergency, stabilizing first aide to the extent of their training. Im trained to put a tube down somebody's throat and give epi. Do you suppose CAP has my back if I do? Thats what all of this is about.

[sarmed1]

OK heres the policy I was looking at when we had a similar discusion for HMRS.  PA wing actually carries additional suplemental insurance for it rope and rappeling operations so this wouldnt be that much differant (except there is a waiver policy for that in the regs, this topic needs something similar!)
EMT's, Intermediates and Paramedics are $100 /year (a EMS volunteer is only $75, guess that means like first responders) and an LPN & RN is $89.  Quotes for PA's are not available without submitting a detailed form, same for a agency/firm type policy.  One point I thought was nice that we addressed here is it does cover you worldwide. 

Features and Benefits
Up to $1,000,000 per claim professional liability coverage
Your coverage protects you for settlement of a claim or damages awarded up to $1,000,000 each claim.
Up to $3,000,000 aggregate professional liability coverage
Your coverage protects you with up to $3,000,000 aggregate liability protection. This is the maximum limit available to protect you against multiple claims within the policy year.
HPSO offers other liability limit and coverage options.
Please contact us if you'd like to learn more about these options.

Occurrence Coverage
Protects you regardless of when a claim is filed, provided the policy was in force at the time the covered medical incident occurred.
Defense Attorney Provided
An attorney will be provided to represent you personally, when necessary. Legal fees will be paid for covered claims, in addition to your liability limit - WIN OR LOSE.
Deposition Representation
Reimburses you up to $5,000 aggregate, up to $2,500 per deposition for attorney fees as a result of your required appearance at a deposition that arises out of professional services.
Defendant Expense Benefit
Reimburses you up to $10,000 aggregate for lost wages and covered expenses incurred when you attend a required trial, hearing or proceeding as a defendant in a covered claim.
License Protection
· Reimburses you for your defense of license or disciplinary action and other covered expenses arising out of a covered incident, up to $25,000 aggregate, up to $10,000 per proceeding.
Worldwide Coverage
You are protected 24/7 anywhere in the world for covered medical incidents, provided claim is brought against you in the United States, its territories, Puerto Rico, or Canada.
In addition, HPSO provides the following benefits:

Assault Coverage*
Covers your medical expenses or reimburses you for damage to your property, up to $25,000 aggregate, up to $10,000 per incident if you are assaulted at work or while commuting to and from your workplace.
Personal Liability coverage
Protects you, up to $1,000,000 aggregate for liability damages for covered claims resulting from incidents at your residence, unrelated to your work.
Personal Injury coverage
Protects you, up to the applicable limits of liability, against covered claims arising from charges of privacy violation, slander, libel, assault and battery, and other alleged personal injuries committed in the conduct of your professional services.
First Aid Expense
You will be reimbursed for expenses you incur in rendering first aid to others- up to $2,500 aggregate.
Medical Payments
Pays up to $100,000 aggregate, up to $2,000 per person for reimbursement of medical expenses to others injured at your residence or business premises.
Damage to Property of Others
Pays up to $10,000 aggregate, up to $500 per incident for damage caused accidentally by you to the property of others at your residence or workplace.

mk

[Ned]

OK, now we have some numbers to begin to work with.

We do need a quote for MDs, DOs, and PAs to really get  a handle on this.

But the biggest problem is that while the policy you have researched does cover EMTs, it does not cover CAP, Inc. for the liability of its medical personnel.

And that's a show-stopper.

And of course, where the lion's share of the cost is going to be.

Keep up the good work.

[desert rat]

"Hate to tell you, but the military can't get enough medical personnel to cover their own needs, much less reach out and cover CAP too."

That statement is so bad.  The military can't get medical/dental people because a doctor can make many times more income without a cost of going to war by being a civilian doctor.  the military carries too much risk with too little compensation for a doctor/dentist.   Cap on the other hand does not comit anyone to anything, and there is no chance of being forced into war.  With proper liability coverage I believe doctors/dentists would be more than happy to donate time and talants to CAP.  I know I am a dentist.

[SARMedTech]

I would imagine, that in the case of CAP being covered vs the individual EMS personnel being covered, that CAP has insurance in place for liability,indemnity, etc. It has a legal department, it has insurance, etc. Where we run into the problem is that in case of a medical situation where an EMT, Medic, etc take aggressive action (say I place a breathing tube and damage the lining of the trachea...something that happens relatively frequently) even if that person does not die and suffers no permanent deficit or disability...Im screwed. Juries tend to side with the injured party. There ears suddently close when it gets to the part where a medical expert is testifying that if EMT Smith hadnt placed the ET tube when he did and secured an airway, Cadet Jones would have died in full cardio-pulmonary arrest. They dont hear that. What they hear is the other sides medical expert asking EMT Smith how many tubes he has placed in people throats in his career, how many of them would he classify as difficult, how many of the attempts to intubate have failed. The jury is also going to lose their hearing again when they are being told by a trauma physician that some damage to the trachea (or espophagus in the case of a dual lumen tube) is an understood complication and is considered an "acceptable outcome" given the alternative which is our aforementioned Cadet dying in full arrest. So then that jury turns around and awards a gigantic sum of cash to the Cadet's family, my license is pulled and CAP merrily on. They are covered. Its the providers that they are asking to perform "emergency stabilizing first aide" to the extent of their training that need to be covered. When you hear first aide, everyone thinks bandaides and iodine. Ive got news for you, its more than that. If you have a cadet or SM who falls over an embankment and breaks their femur and tears the femoral artery, then the "first aide" i need to perform just went up and I would hope that it could include a medic there able to gain IV access. Right now, with the way things stand, that cant happen.

To those who think this is all a fool's errand or that well-trained, well-insured EMS responders arent really all that necessary think about this situation: You are on a sortie or exercise and you get pains in your chest. At first they arent that bad so you ignore them and push ahead. Then they radiate down your arm and into your neck. Youre having a heart attack. You collapse and are pulseless and breathless. Do you want and EMT and  Medic right there on scene who can attempt through interventions, drugs, etc to revive you, or would you like us to perform basic first aide for the 60 minutes it takes a ambulance to reach you. Im guessing that everyone that volunteers their time would like to know thta in the event that they become hurt or ill or just dont feel right, that there is a team (hopefully an EMT and  Medic) on your ground team that can tend to your right then and there and if you need to be evac'd out, can begin to set that process in motion, all the while continuing to care for you. What about your children that are cadets? Do you want them to have instant medical care, or do you want them to wait? What about someone that we might find in an aircraft that is in shock, would you go home from that sortie feeling better that there was an immediate response by your squadron's medical officers that tried to help that person or would you lose some sleep because those medical officers could have helped, but were limited by the fact they are not covered from liability and do not have access to emergency medical direction.

As an EMT, I am willing to carry an entire Medics pack in addition to my alice pack to be prepared for as many eventualities as we can. Im willing to schlep the extra gear and setups into the field and then carry it back unused because nothing happened on that sortie. I am trained, willing and able to help in first aide AND emergent care situations, but Im not going to be as aggressive as perhaps I might need to be if I know that if something goes wrong, Im going to get left twisting in the wind by the same CAP who gave me that EMT bling for my BDUs. Im willing to be a volunteer EMT for CAP, but not if they dont have my back. They want it both ways...they want the service, but they dont want to have to pay anything for it. Im not saying that they should pay me, but pay for coverage, pay for some of the expendable supplies or reimburse me for them and give me some liability insurance. Its not a difficult concept...perhaps its just not as important  over at NHQ as what badge goes where on what uniform.

[SAR-EMT1]

"Hate to tell you, but the military can't get enough medical personnel to cover their own needs, much less reach out and cover CAP too."

That statement is so bad.  The military can't get medical/dental people because a doctor can make many times more income without a cost of going to war by being a civilian doctor.  the military carries too much risk with too little compensation for a doctor/dentist.   Cap on the other hand does not comit anyone to anything, and there is no chance of being forced into war.  With proper liability coverage I believe doctors/dentists would be more than happy to donate time and talants to CAP.  I know I am a dentist.

'Doc', spell check comes in handy every now and again. 
Aside from that, how would a Dentist be of direct MEDICAL benifit to CAP Emergency Services? - Im not saying a Dentist isnt of use to CAP, just not as a dentist "in the field" - I cant see CAP allowing Crown Repair on a mission, insured or not. 

[SAR-EMT1]

I would imagine, that in the case of CAP being covered vs the individual EMS personnel being covered, that CAP has insurance in place for liability,indemnity, etc. It has a legal department, it has insurance, etc. Where we run into the problem is that in case of a medical situation where an EMT, Medic, etc take aggressive action (say I place a breathing tube and damage the lining of the trachea...something that happens relatively frequently) even if that person does not die and suffers no permanent deficit or disability...Im screwed. Juries tend to side with the injured party. There ears suddently close when it gets to the part where a medical expert is testifying that if EMT Smith hadnt placed the ET tube when he did and secured an airway, Cadet Jones would have died in full cardio-pulmonary arrest. They dont hear that. What they hear is the other sides medical expert asking EMT Smith how many tubes he has placed in people throats in his career, how many of them would he classify as difficult, how many of the attempts to intubate have failed. The jury is also going to lose their hearing again when they are being told by a trauma physician that some damage to the trachea (or espophagus in the case of a dual lumen tube) is an understood complication and is considered an "acceptable outcome" given the alternative which is our aforementioned Cadet dying in full arrest. So then that jury turns around and awards a gigantic sum of cash to the Cadet's family, my license is pulled and CAP merrily on. They are covered. Its the providers that they are asking to perform "emergency stabilizing first aide" to the extent of their training that need to be covered. When you hear first aide, everyone thinks bandaides and iodine. Ive got news for you, its more than that. If you have a cadet or SM who falls over an embankment and breaks their femur and tears the femoral artery, then the "first aide" i need to perform just went up and I would hope that it could include a medic there able to gain IV access. Right now, with the way things stand, that cant happen.

To those who think this is all a fool's errand or that well-trained, well-insured EMS responders arent really all that necessary think about this situation: You are on a sortie or exercise and you get pains in your chest. At first they arent that bad so you ignore them and push ahead. Then they radiate down your arm and into your neck. Youre having a heart attack. You collapse and are pulseless and breathless. Do you want and EMT and  Medic right there on scene who can attempt through interventions, drugs, etc to revive you, or would you like us to perform basic first aide for the 60 minutes it takes a ambulance to reach you. Im guessing that everyone that volunteers their time would like to know thta in the event that they become hurt or ill or just dont feel right, that there is a team (hopefully an EMT and  Medic) on your ground team that can tend to your right then and there and if you need to be evac'd out, can begin to set that process in motion, all the while continuing to care for you. What about your children that are cadets? Do you want them to have instant medical care, or do you want them to wait? What about someone that we might find in an aircraft that is in shock, would you go home from that sortie feeling better that there was an immediate response by your squadron's medical officers that tried to help that person or would you lose some sleep because those medical officers could have helped, but were limited by the fact they are not covered from liability and do not have access to emergency medical direction.

As an EMT, I am willing to carry an entire Medics pack in addition to my alice pack to be prepared for as many eventualities as we can. Im willing to schlep the extra gear and setups into the field and then carry it back unused because nothing happened on that sortie. I am trained, willing and able to help in first aide AND emergent care situations, but Im not going to be as aggressive as perhaps I might need to be if I know that if something goes wrong, Im going to get left twisting in the wind by the same CAP who gave me that EMT bling for my BDUs. Im willing to be a volunteer EMT for CAP, but not if they dont have my back. They want it both ways...they want the service, but they dont want to have to pay anything for it. Im not saying that they should pay me, but pay for coverage, pay for some of the expendable supplies or reimburse me for them and give me some liability insurance. Its not a difficult concept...perhaps its just not as important  over at NHQ as what badge goes where on what uniform.

I too have humped BLS gear into the woods with an Alice on a SAREX.
However, while I wear the EMT badge on my uniform- for comraderie with other EMS types-Im a far cry from carrying an Ambulance on my back.
(Im 140lbs)
I dont hump in O2, I dont have a KED or Longboard, though I do have a plastic tarp-esc liter, and while I do have a C-Collar I dont have an AED....
There are limits to the extras I can bring in and still remain "mission effective" - remember i still have a GT pack on my back.

[SARMedTech]

Nor do I carry a long board, though a KED wouldnt be a bad idea as a substitute though I admit it would be bulky as all get out. And one c-collar, unless its adjustable for size isnt gonna do it, but I see what you mean. I wasnt talking about carrying an ambulance. Obviously, we cant carry one of the most needed things into the field, which is 02. When I talk about carrying extra gear, Im talking about a medics pack in addition to my alice gear, something along the lines of the new M3Alpha would help or a SWAT alice pack add on. We could take a big lesson from the new step child of EMS which is tactical medicine. It solves alot of the problems of size of items, etc that we need. Also looking at research on field medicine will help to down size and also help an EMT to carry equipment that has more than one purpose.