Vehicle Roof Markings

[BillB]

I'd almost bet that if you contacted your local police department opr sheriffs office they would sell at a reasonbile price or donate the 3 numbers that make up the radio call for each CAP vehicle. They have a large supply of numbers they put on the roof of police vehicles and might be willing to give CAP a set.

[Flying Pig]

I think its a great idea. Looking down and seeing "452" or whatever, on the roof top.  I know its a CAP vehicle and what their call sign is.  If there are several CAP vehicles in the area, I know and they know exactly who I am talking to.  A white van in an urban area!  They are everywhere!  There is a reason pretty much every LE and EMS vehicle has some sort of roof top marking.  Its for the aircraft.  Not for the people standing on their balconies!

All you have to do is get vinyl numbers and stick them on.  Im not sure where people are getting "$500 in materials".  Our Department cars have had them for years and they never require any up keep.  If you are planning on working with LE or other non-CAP air assets, it would really help.  Although CAP isn't setting up perimeters, thats how I do it in the helicopter.  "Rooftop 123, I need you at 5th and Elm.  Rooftop 456 I need you at 4th and Elm.."  "Rooftop 678, the suspect is in the back yard of that house you are parked in front of."  In LE, the roof top number is usually their call sign.  But when you have 15 cops on scene there is no way to coordinate what everyone call signs are and keep them straight. 

As far as blinding people which is what was mentioned earlier, Ive never been blinded or even seen any reflection off of rooftop numbers.  So far, any arguments against it that have been posted here, I would say are completely without foundation.  Im seeing more personal opinion stated as fact. 

If for some reason I was coming onto the scene assisting CAP as an LE helicopter or fixed wing, having rooftop numbers matching the call sign would be very helpful because thats what we look for.  If I was a CAP crew coming into an area I might not be familiar with or working with a unit I might not be familiar with, it definitely wouldnt hurt.

[lordmonar]

The $500 of materials and labor number came from the last time NHQ tried to mandate roof markings and wanted the squadrons to eat the costs.

I got no problem with pushing the costs to the squadrons.....that should be one of their jobs.   But the problem with the last time was that while it was standardised....it assumed that everyone had the same access to the right materials and labor.

What needs to bone is NHQ develope and purchase the 500+ orange decales and have the squadrons apply them.

[Flying Pig]

Is there something that says you cant just tape it off and stencil it real nice and just paint them with a rattle can?  It would take $3.99 and 15 minutes and would probably turn out pretty nice.  Or did it need to be $500 stickers?

[davidsinn]

The $500 of materials and labor number came from the last time NHQ tried to mandate roof markings and wanted the squadrons to eat the costs.

I got no problem with pushing the costs to the squadrons.....that should be one of their jobs.   

Why should the units be responsible for paying for an NHQ mandate for a corporate asset that doesn't even belong to them? I like the rooftop marking idea but Podunk Comp. Sqdn. should not be paying for it. Wing or higher should. Maybe use left over funds at the end of the year and buy one less vehicle with them and use that money instead to mark what we have?

[Flying Pig]

Is there something that says you cant just tape it off and stencil it real nice and just paint them with a rattle can?  It would take $3.99 and 15 minutes and would probably turn out pretty nice.  Or did it need to be $500 stickers?

OOOO  I have an idea!

Pig...your a genius....

Yes, I know, thank you.

[arajca]

Is there something that says you cant just tape it off and stencil it real nice and just paint them with a rattle can?  It would take $3.99 and 15 minutes and would probably turn out pretty nice.  Or did it need to be $500 stickers?

That was National's assumption when they mandated it earlier. Then people realized that many folks who thought they knew what they were doing, didn't. The rattle can paint jobs looked like crap and didn't last. To get one that looked decent and would last beyond the first hard rain, you needed to have it professionally done or use the same techniques. That cost $$$

[Flying Pig]

I guess expecting people to take the time to do it right was expecting to much.  And expecting them to touch it up once in a while was over the top.  I changed my mind. Its a very bad idea. 

[tribalelder]

Local spray can orange triangles made sense back when CAP vehicles were old DOD 125k miles clunkers. I did a few as a cadet in the day.  The flexible magnetic sheeting triangle or numerals was handy for POV's.

Current cost, not including shipping, from Blick art supply for the sheeting $6/foot from a 24 inch wide roll, so 2 one piece numerals, 24x18 inches would be about twice the cost of bad spray can supplies. If you 'pieced' the numerals, it would take less material.

Pluses- looks decent, only displayed when needed, low cost

Minuses - if roof has ridges, may have highway speed adhering problem, needs to be stored flat on metal - like on refrigerator or cookie sheet, may not lie flat if applied at low - like below 20

[RiverAux]

I don't know that the markings would need to be standardized as there aren't many vehicles of any type with orange markings on their roof.  Instead of one large symbol, if you've got ridges you could get a series of strips to lay along the flat parts. 

[Spaceman3750]

You could get a cheap lightbar for less than the decals. Even if you didn't turn them on it should be more than distinctive for our purposes. Plus it has the addition feature of making you more visible on the flight-line and when stopped along the side of the road unlike the one trick pony that is a decal.

but a magnetic strobe from Pep Boys would be a good solution

First hand experience from the last SAREX I was at says that the strobes don't have upward visibility (at least not the ones we were using, kinda like the Pep Boy light) - I know because I got on the radio and asked the aircraft leading us to the target. My team had two POVs, one with a rotator and one with a strobe, neither light could be seen from the air (though this was daytime and anything smaller than a mini lightbar is hard to see during the day).

On the topic of finding vehicles from the air, after they lost us once and were coming around for a racetrack to find us again we spotted them (we temporarily lost visual contact) and "We're at your five o'clock" was quickly followed by "OK, we see you".

[tribalelder]

Yes-don't need to standardize --Could use hood if roof has ridges ...  Just need to find OUR white van. As to strobe vs rotating light  -- ages ago I heard anecdotal account that rotating can work better as light gets low - no first hand knowledge on my part.

[SarDragon]

As far as blinding people which is what was mentioned earlier, Ive never been blinded or even seen any reflection off of rooftop numbers.  So far, any arguments against it that have been posted here, I would say are completely without foundation.  Im seeing more personal opinion stated as fact. 

That was probably me, and the reference was for stuff on the hood, not the roof.

[whatevah]

Fwiw... I have two bright yellow vehicles, and I've never been blinded by sunlight hitting the hoods.  If the sun is low enough to bounce light off the hood into my eyes, it's low enough to already be visible in the windshield.   YMMV 

[SarDragon]

Fwiw... I have two bright yellow vehicles, and I've never been blinded by sunlight hitting the hoods.  If the sun is low enough to bounce light off the hood into my eyes, it's low enough to already be visible in the windshield.   YMMV 

Shiny paint isn't an issue. The original suggestion was for "Bright orange magnetic signs", which I interpreted to mean reflective material, not just shiny.

[whatevah]

Oh ok. The rooftop markings locally aren't reflective, just contrasting colors. Black on white, white on black, yellow on dark blue (state police).

[NIN]

First hand experience from the last SAREX I was at says that the strobes don't have upward visibility (at least not the ones we were using, kinda like the Pep Boy light) - I know because I got on the radio and asked the aircraft leading us to the target. My team had two POVs, one with a rotator and one with a strobe, neither light could be seen from the air (though this was daytime and anything smaller than a mini lightbar is hard to see during the day).

I always see school buses with a white strobe about 3/4 of the way back on the top. No clue what thats about (ie. is it there to tell people 'Hey, look, this is a big [redacted] yellow school bus!"?)  I would think a similarly configured yellow "PepBoys" strobe might not be too much different.

As for visibility from the air, about 6 weeks ago we were doing night jumps and our pilot had he service vehicle with 2 yellow strobes on the roof parked right in front of where the Twin Otter parks, about 75 yards from the designated and lit landing area.  That vehicle and the strobes were visible from 12,500 ft directly above it, and all the way down to 1000 ft AGL (when I stopped paying attention to it and started paying attention to landing in the lighted area)

The hard part is, from the air, at night: not mistaking the strobes for head lights that are occluded by trees and ground cover that look a lot like strobes.  They move, and any occluding doesn't last long, unlike the strobe, but it takes a few seconds to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[PHall]

First hand experience from the last SAREX I was at says that the strobes don't have upward visibility (at least not the ones we were using, kinda like the Pep Boy light) - I know because I got on the radio and asked the aircraft leading us to the target. My team had two POVs, one with a rotator and one with a strobe, neither light could be seen from the air (though this was daytime and anything smaller than a mini lightbar is hard to see during the day).

I always see school buses with a white strobe about 3/4 of the way back on the top. No clue what thats about (ie. is it there to tell people 'Hey, look, this is a big [redacted] yellow school bus!"?)  I would think a similarly configured yellow "PepBoys" strobe might not be too much different.

As for visibility from the air, about 6 weeks ago we were doing night jumps and our pilot had he service vehicle with 2 yellow strobes on the roof parked right in front of where the Twin Otter parks, about 75 yards from the designated and lit landing area.  That vehicle and the strobes were visible from 12,500 ft directly above it, and all the way down to 1000 ft AGL (when I stopped paying attention to it and started paying attention to landing in the lighted area)

The hard part is, from the air, at night: not mistaking the strobes for head lights that are occluded by trees and ground cover that look a lot like strobes.  They move, and any occluding doesn't last long, unlike the strobe, but it takes a few seconds to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The strobes are there so that the bus doesn't get rear-ended on foggy/snowy days.
At least that's what I have been told.

[RADIOMAN015]

Our state police vehicles have a darker blue roof scheme so they use white lettering for the cruiser/vehicle number (which is the callsign assigned to the vehicle).  My understanding is that lighter colors are easier to see than darker colors from the air, so black lettering on a white van might not work that well.
RM

[RRLE]

The USCG Aux has an optional Surface-To-Air Recognition Banner for its boats. These are the specs from the Operations Policy Manual

3.E.2. Use

Auxiliarists may display the surface to air recognition banner in the following manner:
• Use it only on a surface facility that is assigned to duty.
• Do not permanently affix the banner to any facility.
• Use the banner as an optional display.
• Display the banner in a horizontal plane, on the fore-deck, pilothouse, or bimini top. The base of the "A" must be towards the stern of the boat.

3.E.3. Construction

Auxiliarists may make a surface to air recognition banner under the following guidelines:
• The banner must be 36 inches by 36 inches in size. Use a larger banner only if adequate display area is available on the facility.
• Make the banner using nylon, hemmed edges, and grommets for fastening banner to display location.
• Sew on the letter "A" (for better durability) or use the silk screening process.
• Use international orange color for the background and black for the letter "A". The "A" must be 80% of the banner's height.

It should be easy to adapt that to a vehicle.