Civil Air Patrol and knifes

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Please note, I was not endorsing the use of large knives, rather the statement that of course "task guides are regulatory" by Eclipse.

I would have to say that task guides are regulatory as Eclipse said it. When you train, you train for many different things, and one of them being safety, now as we all know the idea of safety varies greatly from one person to the next. When you train you also have to train with the understanding that you are training in "perfect circumstances". As we all know real world missions are not at all perfect circumstances. Because of this the manual does allow one GTL to carry something of a machete on missions where it really could be of necessity. However, this necessity is not very common, especially around where I am. If it is common where you are then carrying a machete by one GTL would be common place and suggested. I wouldn't consider carrying anything over what the manual says.

As they are seen by the military, and us as well (in most cases) manuals are regulatory. The manual for D&C that we use is not a regulation, it is a manual, yet that is the only way facing movements are done, and is viewed as a regulation.

[ol'fido]

The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.

Most definitely, locale and situation will dictate what is and isn't needed in your gear, even a chainsaw may be needed in your gear out in WA, OR, and ID, but I seriously doubt that an eleven inch blade Rambo knife would be necessary. Outfit your gear with what you NEED, not the absurd. If you need an eleven inch blade knife, it is time to just get a machete and an axe, because lets face it, they work better than a knife with an eleven inch blade.

[Ned]

I suspect part of the problem is we may be using slightly different definitions of the word "regulatory."  My participation from earlier in the thread was based on a CP perspective.

If a cadet or a senior on a typical squadron bivouac (not an ES training mission, no one is being specifically trained on any GT tasks or "signed off" on anything) brings a 3-4" double-edged knife, have they violated a CAP rule?

From my perspective, if the task guide is "regulatory," it has the force of a regulation, and we could tell the member "yes, that double edged knife is against the rules, and you could be disciplined for possessing it at a CAP activity."

If the task guide does not have the force of regulation (is not "regulatory"), then we tell the member something like "well, if the squadron commander says it's OK, then it's OK.  Be careful and have fun."

As a practical matter, members are bound by regulations in large part because we are all on notice as to what they are and where to go look at them if we are unsure what they say.  It is problematic to take something that is not in the regulations and give it the full force of a regulation simply because the average member has no realistic way to figure out what it says and decide if it applies to them.

That's why I asked.

[Larry Mangum]

Thanks Ned, you stated it better then I did by a long shot.

[ol'fido]

The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.

Most definitely, locale and situation will dictate what is and isn't needed in your gear, even a chainsaw may be needed in your gear out in WA, OR, and ID, but I seriously doubt that an eleven inch blade Rambo knife would be necessary. Outfit your gear with what you NEED, not the absurd. If you need an eleven inch blade knife, it is time to just get a machete and an axe, because lets face it, they work better than a knife with an eleven inch blade.

At what point have I advocated the 11" Rambo knife?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

At what point have I advocated the 11" Rambo knife?

I never said you did. I was merely using eleven inches as an example.

[mclarke]

I have 2 actually

1: Gerber Multi-tool
2: Ka-Bar style fighting knife. Blade is 5" and handle is around 4". So it is within regs.

[BTCS1*]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

[HGjunkie]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

It may become a point of ridicule.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

It may become a point of ridicule.

I could understand that. I just carry the USAF survival knife, five inch blade and five inch handle. Nothing more is needed by anyone. Except maybe a hatchet at times just for chopping some fire wood.

[Spaceman3750]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.

Oh ok, I didn't think of it being Rambo style so I didn't think about that. I don't know what the knife looks like, otherwise I would have agreed right away. Sorry for the unruly banter.

[HGjunkie]

This is a Ka-Bar:

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have known several Ka-Bar knives. To me a Ka-Bar knife is any knife made by the company Ka-Bar. This could mean any knife ranging from a folding pocket knife to a machete. Even my USAF survival knife is made by Ka-Bar. Sorry for the confusion.

They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.

[HGjunkie]

They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.

Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.

Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.

Oooh, good catch. I know it was something close from the Leadership 2000 and beyond from WIWAC.

[mclarke]

Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661

[Майор Хаткевич]

They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.

Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.

Oooh, good catch. I know it was something close from the Leadership 2000 and beyond from WIWAC.

Not that it was that long ago for some of us. WIWAC 2003-2008 it was just falling out of favor for the 21st century texts.