Here's what I'm thinking. I've seen the Ranger Creed for attendants of HMRS, so I was thinking, maybe we should come up with a creed for ground teams in general, not just Hawk alumni. Below are the creeds for CAP Rangers, along with the Code of Air Force Pararescue. Comments, suggestions, prototypes, anything welcome.
The Ranger Creed
It is my duty as a member of the Rangers of the Civil Air Patrol ground search and rescue service, to save lives, aid the injured, and protect their property.
In order to do this, I will keep myself physically fit at all times.
I will be prepared at all times to perform my assigned duties quickly and efficiently, placing these duties before my personal desires and comfort.
These things I do that others may live...
USAF Pararescue Code
It is my duty as a Pararescueman to save life and to aid the injured. I will be prepared at all times to perform my assigned duties quickly and efficiently, placing these duties before personal desires and comforts. These things I do, that others may live.
I really thought I ran across one ~4 years ago. But I haven't seen it since. No amount of Googling has helped.
Why?
Let's just do the job without little blood oaths.
^--- thank you.
" Rangers of the Civil Air Patrol ground search and rescue service"
Rangers? I thought we were just Ground Team members?
Quote from: capmaj on September 22, 2010, 08:12:41 PM
" Rangers of the Civil Air Patrol ground search and rescue service"
Rangers? I thought we were just Ground Team members?
That the Hawk Mtn Ranger Creed.
We already have a motto, why do we need anything else?
USAFAux and others make a good point. I always thought that "So others may live." always summed it up pretty well anyways.
What, no NBB creed? >:D
I am a Blue Beret. I am the heart of the mission, wherever, whenever. I am what my country expects me to be; the best trained cadet in the world. Never will I fail that trust.
In the race for victory I am swift, determined, and courageous; Armed with a fierce will to win.
I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to fatigue, to horrible odds; for I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight.
I forsake not my country, my mission, my comrades, my duty.
I am relentless, I am always there, now and forever.
I am a Blue Beret. Follow me!
Anyway. These aren't "blood oaths", they're mission statements. And to be honest, the ground side of CAP ops could certainly use a quality mission statement that conveys our place in CAP ops, because in a lot of places we're simply an afterthought.
How about ...
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil's might,
Beware my power... Green Lantern's light!..."
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2010, 08:40:36 PM
How about ...
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil's might,
Beware my power... Green Lantern's light!..."
Now THAT'S funny!!!! :clap: :clap:
Neither rain nor snow nor gloom of night ...
Quote from: N Harmon on September 22, 2010, 08:23:28 PM
Anyway. These aren't "blood oaths", they're mission statements. And to be honest, the ground side of CAP ops could certainly use a quality mission statement that conveys our place in CAP ops, because in a lot of places we're simply an afterthought.
Remind me again what the Oaths are for GBDs and Pilots?
how about:
"I promise as a GTM to wear my safety belt in the van,
bring food as part as my 24 hour gear,
Call 911 to save a life,
to actually pay attention to the needle on the L'per instead of holding the speaker to my ear,
These are the things I promise to do as a Ground Team Member."
Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2010, 08:40:36 PM
How about ...
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil's might,
Beware my power... Green Lantern's light!..."
Holy BATMAN! I remember this! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 22, 2010, 07:51:45 PM
Why?
As others have said, they're not blood oaths, but mission statements. Why do you think CAP adopted one in the first place? It provides a short and sweet means of spelling out the goals and missions of an organization. It would represent all of the core qualities and goals that bond all of us ground pounders together. At least IMHO.
me thinks the screen name of the OP says it all.............
We will end up with a mission statement for every specialty track in CAP. I think we are good with what we have.
Quote from: GTCommando on September 22, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 22, 2010, 07:51:45 PM
Why?
As others have said, they're not blood oaths, but mission statements. Why do you think CAP adopted one in the first place? It provides a short and sweet means of spelling out the goals and missions of an organization. It would represent all of the core qualities and goals that bond all of us ground pounders together. At least IMHO.
I pose my question again. What are the blood oaths of GBDs and pilots?
I WANNA BE A GROUND TEAM COMMANDO
I WANNA CUT OFF ALL OF MY HAIR
I WANNA BE A PENNSYLVANIA RANGER
AND PRETEND MY LIFE'S IN DANGER
please................................
Click here (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2734.msg50367#msg50367). The cadet that wrote it was a C/2d Lt at the time and later earned the Earhart. She graduated West Point a couple years ago, is a platoon leader in an airborne combat engineer company stationed in Alaska. If I'm not mistaken, her dad (retired CAP Lt Col of 35 years) said she graduated the Army's Sapper leader Course (http://www.wood.army.mil/sapper/).
RESCUE Creed
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Civil Air Patrol ground team member,
fully knowing the expectations of my chosen specialty, I will always
endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor and high esprit de corps of
Civil Air Patrol Emergency Services.
Exceeding all others, CAP ground teams are elite searchers, who respond
at the first call of the AFRCC, I accept that as a ground team member my
squadron expects me to move further, faster, and search harder than any
other team.
Semper Vigilans. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically
strong and well trained, and I will shoulder my share of the team
equipment whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.
Courageously I will show the world that I am a specially qualified and
well-trained searcher. My survival skills, land navigation, and care of
equipment shall set the standard for others to follow.
United, my ground team will meet the challenges of the search. I shall
find the objective when all other teams have chosen defeat, for I am better
trained and will search till the dead of night. Failure is not a ground
team word. Never will I leave a search victim to fall into the hands of
death and under no circumstance will I ever embarrass my organization.
Energetically will I display the duty, valor, and strength to drive on to the search
objective and complete the mission. Though I be the lone ground team member.
SEMPER VIGILANS!
Quote from: Stonewall on September 23, 2010, 12:55:50 AM
RESCUE Creed
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Civil Air Patrol ground team member,
fully knowing the expectations of my chosen specialty, I will always
endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor and high esprit de corps of
Civil Air Patrol Emergency Services.
Exceeding all others, CAP ground teams are elite searchers, who respond
at the first call of the AFRCC, I accept that as a ground team member my
squadron expects me to move further, faster, and search harder than any
other team.
Semper Vigilans. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically
strong and well trained, and I will shoulder my share of the team
equipment whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.
Courageously I will show the world that I am a specially qualified and
well-trained searcher. My survival skills, land navigation, and care of
equipment shall set the standard for others to follow.
United, my ground team will meet the challenges of the search. I shall
find the objective when all other teams have chosen defeat, for I am better
trained and will search till the dead of night. Failure is not a ground
team word. Never will I leave a search victim to fall into the hands of
death and under no circumstance will I ever embarrass my organization.
Energetically will I display the duty, valor, and strength to drive on to the search
objective and complete the mission. Though I be the lone ground team member.
SEMPER VIGILANS!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
ROTFLolacopter.
Oh come on. 8)
Quote from: GTCommando on September 22, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
As others have said, they're not blood oaths, but mission statements.
They are not "mission statements".
"Serve as a fiscally responsible service and support organization to the United States Air Force."
That is a mission statement.
Quote from: GTCommando on September 22, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
Why do you think CAP adopted one in the first place?
"CAP" didn't - some specific activities use them in an attempt to instill spirit in their participants. Since the organization already has
core values, mission statements, and an oath, anything else is unnecessary.
How about this:
I will show up when called, sit quietly until asked, and do the best I can...
Quote from: a2capt on September 23, 2010, 01:11:12 AM
Oh come on. 8)
The cadet that wrote this was about 14 or 15 at the time. She was not your typical HMRS wannabe or HALO 3 warrior. She was a top student in her class, great athlete and dedicated cadet. She was highly motivated for ground team stuff and decided one day to jot down a "Rescue Creed". While I don't think such a creed is necessary, nor would I suggest someone writing one, I did support her motivation and drive. Fortunately she turned out to be a top notch adult, USMA graudate and now Army officer.
how about....
I will sign in to the mission with legible handwriting.
I will listen to the safety briefing, and place myself on the safety briefing roster.
I will not touch anything in the field.... at all...
If i fall down and go boom, I will tell someone ASAP, and not hide what happened.
::)
OR, we could just do what we have been doing....and have nothing...you know... whatever.... >:D
Quote from: NCRblues on September 23, 2010, 02:15:21 AM
I will sign in to the mission with legible handwriting.
I will listen to the safety briefing, and place myself on the safety briefing roster.
I will not touch anything in the field.... at all...
If i fall down and go boom, I will tell someone ASAP, and not hide what happened.
Sounds like we need to bubble wrap everyone to keep them safe.
Quote from: Stonewall on September 23, 2010, 02:21:58 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 23, 2010, 02:15:21 AM
I will sign in to the mission with legible handwriting.
I will listen to the safety briefing, and place myself on the safety briefing roster.
I will not touch anything in the field.... at all...
If i fall down and go boom, I will tell someone ASAP, and not hide what happened.
Sounds like we need to bubble wrap everyone to keep them safe.
Sometimes I feel like one day that will be policy. Heck, look at how the safety oath evolved before it died. It was simple, then it turned into an unnecessary mess.
Quote from: JC004 on September 23, 2010, 02:52:43 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on September 23, 2010, 02:21:58 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 23, 2010, 02:15:21 AM
I will sign in to the mission with legible handwriting.
I will listen to the safety briefing, and place myself on the safety briefing roster.
I will not touch anything in the field.... at all...
If i fall down and go boom, I will tell someone ASAP, and not hide what happened.
Sounds like we need to bubble wrap everyone to keep them safe.
Sometimes I feel like one day that will be policy. Heck, look at how the safety oath evolved before it died. It was simple, then it turned into an unnecessary mess.
"As a Civil Air Patrol Member, I pledge to promote an uncompromising safety environment for myself and others. And to prevent the loss of, or damage to, Civil Air Patrol assets entrusted to me. I will perform all of my activities in a professional and safe manner, and will hold myself accountable for my actions in all of our Missions for America." - from memory, suckas...
<sarcasm>
Sure, GT's need an oath, just like they need blades longer than six inches.
</sarcasm>
Ground Teams are VERY important. I feel that National needs to do more to improve our ground teams across the Country. However, the "elite" mentality kind of makes me a bit angry.
I've overheard AF Security Forces laughing about all the cadets who carry multiple knives. Seriously, we aren't going to war. A simple leatherman is all the more that somebody will need ever.
I've gotten to the point, that I've started bringing a ruler with me during gear inspections, and will confiscate any blade longer than six inches (they are legally weapons at that point under state law, and our meeting takes place on an ARNG installation), keeping them until their parents come to pick up the weapons. As most of the GT-rated cadets have their drivers licenses, this has proven to be an excellent deterrent.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 23, 2010, 03:52:19 AM"As a Civil Air Patrol Member, I pledge to promote an uncompromising safety environment for myself and others. And to prevent the loss of, or damage to, Civil Air Patrol assets entrusted to me. I will perform all of my activities in a professional and safe manner, and will hold myself accountable for my actions in all of our Missions for America." - from memory, suckas...
^ and wear my proper uniform, properly. (or forgo my complete coverage and that of my team)
:P
Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on September 23, 2010, 05:02:50 AM
<sarcasm>
Sure, GT's need an oath, just like they need blades longer than six inches.
</sarcasm>
Ground Teams are VERY important. I feel that National needs to do more to improve our ground teams across the Country. However, the "elite" mentality kind of makes me a bit angry.
I've overheard AF Security Forces laughing about all the cadets who carry multiple knives. Seriously, we aren't going to war. A simple leatherman is all the more that somebody will need ever.
I've gotten to the point, that I've started bringing a ruler with me during gear inspections, and will confiscate any blade longer than six inches (they are legally weapons at that point under state law, and our meeting takes place on an ARNG installation), keeping them until their parents come to pick up the weapons. As most of the GT-rated cadets have their drivers licenses, this has proven to be an excellent deterrent.
:clap: Thank You!
I would pirate Lt. Dan's words as our GT Creed: "Take care of your feet and don't do anything stupid!" We could shout it out like the real Air force: Airpower! "By the Power of Grey Skull!" "Thundercats, Ho!" Or maybe we could just do the job and quit being such whiny little poofters.......naahhhh.
FYI, I think that machetes are still on the list of GT gear, and all the ones I have seen are longer than six inches. Maybe they were banned as "assault knives"
Major Lord
I'm with Eclipse on the GL oath!
Seriously, if some enthusiastic cadets want to write these things I guess there's no harm in it...but I think there are far more useful things they could be doing.
Why do we need all these 'elite communities' in CAP??
While I wouldn't dare compare us with the USMC, I think they've got the right attitude: either you're a Marine, or you're not.
If you are, nothing more needs to be said.
If you're not, then who cares?!?
We ought to strive for that sort of spirit across CAP -- any member, whatever the rank, role, mission function, is "one of us!"
Having a creed, or mission statement, or whatever you want to call it is not "elitist". If it were then comm folks with their "Voice of Command" creed would be quite elite.
It's about summing up your job in as few words as possible, so as to give something to be proud of...
- Ground Teams: The Rescue in CAP Search and Rescue
- Ground Teams: Boots on the Ground for the Eyes in the Air
- Ground Teams: Because planes make me sick.
CAP Is not or will never be rescue!
Quote from: CommGeek on September 23, 2010, 06:58:24 PM
CAP Is not or will never be rescue!
Easy there, Tonto. Fun is fun, but CAP does serve a valuable place in the ES puzzle.
"Rescue" is a relative term and doesn't always mean carrying someone out of a burning building on your back.
Quote from: Major Lord on September 23, 2010, 03:49:22 PM
I would pirate Lt. Dan's words as our GT Creed: "Take care of your feet and don't do anything stupid!" We could shout it out like the real Air force: Airpower! "By the Power of Grey Skull!" "Thundercats, Ho!" Or maybe we could just do the job and quit being such whiny little poofters.......naahhhh.
FYI, I think that machetes are still on the list of GT gear, and all the ones I have seen are longer than six inches. Maybe they were banned as "assault knives"
Major Lord
machetes are still permitted as terrain dictates (for senior members only) but not permitted to be visible while on site security (whole "show of force" hoopla and all)..
I would not find it prudent to carry one in the prairies and plains of eastern SD, but there are some places west river where it may be useful. Mine is cheap, its carrier is cheap, and if flops around a lot; I hate it, I don't need it, so I don't carry it.
1. GT Motto- "Do your Job, do it right, and go home safe."
2. Knives of any length can be weapons whether they are 6" or not.
3. Knives are tools. Sometimes you need a big one and sometimes you need a small one. Just don't run around with them all over your gear or you start looking like Barry Sadler's "Garret Trooper".
4. Considering some of the "bat belts" I've seen on Security Forces, they don't have much room to critcize.
5. I sometimes carry a Spec-Plus Bolo. It's not your usual,cheap "tree beater" machete. It will actually cut something. I carry it in my pack and not on my belt. I mainly have it to teach shelter building or other survival subjects as I don't do GT anymore.
6. MBS Motto: "Is there any more coffee?"
Quote from: ol'fido on September 23, 2010, 11:39:00 PM
1. GT Motto- "Do your Job, do it right, and go home safe."
2. Knives of any length can be weapons whether they are 6" or not.
3. Knives are tools. Sometimes you need a big one and sometimes you need a small one. Just don't run around with them all over your gear or you start looking like Barry Sadler's "Garret Trooper".
4. Considering some of the "bat belts" I've seen on Security Forces, they don't have much room to criticize.
5. I sometimes carry a Spec-Plus Bolo. It's not your usual,cheap "tree beater" machete. It will actually cut something. I carry it in my pack and not on my belt. I mainly have it to teach shelter building or other survival subjects as I don't do GT anymore.
6. MBS Motto: "Is there any more coffee?"
#4.... um, security forces, those who's job it is to protect the entire base, operations and personnel on the base they are assigned,with little chance of back up if something would go down on base have no room to talk for carrying knives? You have lost your mind... Cap cadets have Zero need to carry more than one small knife. I can think of a lot of reasons for security forces to carry multiple knives.... and it is no way cap members job to criticise active duty members for the actions they take while one duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?
You guys, as usual, are blowing things way out of proportion.
A cadet sitting in class doodling a "creed" of some sort is no different than a cadet chillin' at home sketching a new squadron patch. It's just brainstorming and loving every minute of CAP. As a cadet I did all of that and then some. I'd rather a cadet scribble some squadron motto on a gum wrapper than be glued to their computer playing Medal of Honor or whatever those games are called. Creativity, daydreaming and being excited about CAP is pretty friggin normal if you ask me. Do you seriously expect a 14 or even a 17 year old to be as straight and narrow and "by the book" as a 40 year old senior member with 20+ years service? Really?
Do we have an issue within CAP of elitism, stupid badges and berets? Of course. But just because a 12 or 15 year old kid cadet does it DOES NOT make it a bad thing. It's not like they're suggesting it be branded onto their chest or mandate all GTs recited for every mission. It's just someone screwing around and maybe being a little excited. So get off your high horses and realize that it's nothing but a cadet being stoked about being a Cadet or Ground Team member. I can think of a lot worse things a cadet could be doing with their time.
As for the Security Forces crap. I have 70+ people in my squadron and I can say with confidence that no one, I mean NO ONE, is stupidliy carrying anything more than a pocket-clip knife in their ABU pocket and a multi-tool in their gear. No one is issued or carries a bayonet, Kaybar or upside down fighting knife. I'm sure there are some Defenders out there that are just as cheesey as some of our cadets and ground team members, and are probably former CAP cadets themselves, but you'll find goofballs in all walks of life, in every career field and MOS.
As a Security Forces NCO, I'll be glad to out PT you, out shoot you and carry a ruck further than you can imagine. And I promise you I won't carry a knife bigger than maybe 3 1/2 inches. 8)
BTW....
[smg id=258]
Quote from: NCRblues on September 24, 2010, 01:01:02 AM
#4.... um, security forces, those who's job it is to protect the entire base, operations and personnel on the base they are assigned,with little chance of back up if something would go down on base have no room to talk for carrying knives? You have lost your mind... Cap cadets have Zero need to carry more than one small knife. I can think of a lot of reasons for security forces to carry multiple knives.... and it is no way cap members job to criticise active duty members for the actions they take while one duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?
Well, maybe some of that criticism is coming from folks who are, or have been, on active duty. That, IMHO, gives them the BTDT to be making criticisms.
Quote from: Stonewall on September 24, 2010, 02:32:16 AM
You guys, as usual, are blowing things way out of proportion.
A cadet sitting in class doodling a "creed" of some sort is no different than a cadet chillin' at home sketching a new squadron patch. It's just brainstorming and loving every minute of CAP. As a cadet I did all of that and then some. I'd rather a cadet scribble some squadron motto on a gum wrapper than be glued to their computer playing Medal of Honor or whatever those games are called. Creativity, daydreaming and being excited about CAP is pretty friggin normal if you ask me. Do you seriously expect a 14 or even a 17 year old to be as straight and narrow and "by the book" as a 40 year old senior member with 20+ years service? Really?
Do we have an issue within CAP of elitism, stupid badges and berets? Of course. But just because a 12 or 15 year old kid cadet does it DOES NOT make it a bad thing. It's not like they're suggesting it be branded onto their chest or mandate all GTs recited for every mission. It's just someone screwing around and maybe being a little excited. So get off your high horses and realize that it's nothing but a cadet being stoked about being a Cadet or Ground Team member. I can think of a lot worse things a cadet could be doing with their time.
As for the Security Forces crap. I have 70+ people in my squadron and I can say with confidence that no one, I mean NO ONE, is stupidliy carrying anything more than a pocket-clip knife in their ABU pocket and a multi-tool in their gear. No one is issued or carries a bayonet, Kaybar or upside down fighting knife. I'm sure there are some Defenders out there that are just as cheesey as some of our cadets and ground team members, and are probably former CAP cadets themselves, but you'll find goofballs in all walks of life, in every career field and MOS.
As a Security Forces NCO, I'll be glad to out PT you, out shoot you and carry a ruck further than you can imagine. And I promise you I won't carry a knife bigger than maybe 3 1/2 inches. 8)
BTW....
[smg id=258]
I did the same thing as a cadet and encourage it to all other cadets. The more they are focused on CAP, the less they are getting into trouble or anything else they could be wasting their time on. If a cadet is so dedicated to CAP that their imagination is being used to create, what's the big deal?
As for being Security
Police Forces, I never carried more than my multi-tool when I was in. The less on the belt was less to worry about losing or getting caught on something. No need to play "Rambo" on an Air Force Base or in CAP.
I am active duty so i guess I'm allowed to criticise... ::)
Having been Security Forces i can tell you, our commander (509th SFS whiteman AFB) had us draw military grade knives (k-bar) from our armory and we were instructed to carry these if we were on WSA security or B area security. If we were on LE, were instructed to have them in the patrol car.
No one is playing "rambo" on base, they are in fact very useful to have around.
Ill be happy to take your challenge to try and out PT me or out shoot me...im pretty good....
I still stand by what i say, cadets should have one small knife with them..... that's it.
Quote from: NCRblues on September 24, 2010, 04:48:27 AM
I am active duty so i guess I'm allowed to criticise... ::)
Having been Security Forces i can tell you, our commander (509th SFS whiteman AFB) had us draw military grade knives (k-bar) from our armory and we were instructed to carry these if we were on WSA security or B area security. If we were on LE, were instructed to have them in the patrol car.
No one is playing "rambo" on base, they are in fact very useful to have around.
Ill be happy to take your challenge to try and out PT me or out shoot me...im pretty good....
I still stand by what i say, cadets should have one small knife with them..... that's it.
Being former active duty and LE, I accept your criticism. ;) I agree with you wholeheartedly and the "Rambo" statement wasn't meant to be an insult (if you took it that way). A small knife is all cadets need. As for PT...you probably could outdo me there. I haven't ran since Clinton was in office (adapted and edited for my purposes from "Space Cowboys"). Shooting...I'm pretty good there too...I miss my M-16! Oh well, it's all good! :D
Quote from: NCRblues on September 24, 2010, 01:01:02 AM
...it is no way cap members [sic] job to criticise [sic] active duty members for the actions they take while one [sic] duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?
The notion that one's actions are beyond reproach merely because one is in the active duty military is interesting to say the least. The implication that the CAP member is of a lower caste and not worthy of commenting on an active duty service member's appearance and/or performance is alarming, especially when coming from an active duty service member who is also a CAP member.
In my mere 12.5 years of active duty service, I have seen plenty that needs criticism. I have also seen some extraordinary accomplishments.
I've never needed a ruler to judge whether a knife was appropriate or not for GSAR.
Couple of things:
1. I started this topic because I'm very proud of CAP as an organization and ground teams within CAP are doing, and I thought it would be a good motivational tool and help build esprit de corps.
2. By starting this topic, I was not intending to try and make GTs some sort of elitist group within CAP. I was DEFINITELY not trying to compare CAP GSAR to Air Force PJs or anything of that nature. I've seen what happens when GTMs and GTLs get too full of themselves, and it's very detrimental to the team and the mission. >:(
3. As for the creed posted by Stonewall recently, that more than fits the bill for what I was thinking of. The former cadet who wrote it should be proud. :clap:
4. Concerning field knives, the extent of what I carry is a multi-tool, folding pocketknife, and survival-utility knife with a 4 1/2 inch blade. Anything more would indeed be excessive (Although slightly more fun). >:D
Now hopefully I've cleared things up. If all of you think it would get out of hand, it will stop here. If not, we'll see where this goes, and thanks for the help.
For the record I carried a Ka-Bar combat knife throughout my entire time as a cadet. Why? Because naturally I knew I'd need something that huge to fight off bad guys [/sarcasm].
No matter where I've been in CAP (23 years now) there are always gung-ho cadets (and seniors) who think they /must/ have a huge combat knife as it is imperative in accomplishing the mission. As a cadet who carried a Rambo knife I still remember the senior member's name who (before CPPT) tore me a new one for being so foolish in carrying such a barbarick fighting tool. He, of course, was an Infantry Officer and forme 1st Ranger Battalion NCO. If he didn't need one, then I certainly didn't need one. Right? Right.
But what we need to remember is, much like the goofy rescue/ground team creed that we're talking about, cadets will do things they think are cool and what they perceive as being done by the Real Military™. Harness that motivation and excitement and demonstrate what is right, which is not always what is easy. Stop putting these young hooahs down for loving CAP as their image of what is *cool* isn't always appropriate.
Quote from: NCRblues on September 24, 2010, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on September 23, 2010, 11:39:00 PM
1. GT Motto- "Do your Job, do it right, and go home safe."
2. Knives of any length can be weapons whether they are 6" or not.
3. Knives are tools. Sometimes you need a big one and sometimes you need a small one. Just don't run around with them all over your gear or you start looking like Barry Sadler's "Garret Trooper".
4. Considering some of the "bat belts" I've seen on Security Forces, they don't have much room to criticize.
5. I sometimes carry a Spec-Plus Bolo. It's not your usual,cheap "tree beater" machete. It will actually cut something. I carry it in my pack and not on my belt. I mainly have it to teach shelter building or other survival subjects as I don't do GT anymore.
6. MBS Motto: "Is there any more coffee?"
#4.... um, security forces, those who's job it is to protect the entire base, operations and personnel on the base they are assigned,with little chance of back up if something would go down on base have no room to talk for carrying knives? You have lost your mind... Cap cadets have Zero need to carry more than one small knife. I can think of a lot of reasons for security forces to carry multiple knives.... and it is no way cap members job to criticise active duty members for the actions they take while one duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?
Lost my mind , Huh..? Well, I didn't say they were carrying multple knives. I said "bat Belts" with a the intent of conveying the fact that they themselves are carrying the kitchen sink and should not criticize others for doing the same. If a cadet has proved to me that he is trustworthy I have no problem with whatever kind of knife he has. One of my cadets was chief of SERE training at the USAFA during his time there. I would have no problem with whatever he carried. I didn't carry multiple knives as an Iinfantryman unless they ordered us to carry that stupid bayonet along.
Quote from: Stonewall on September 24, 2010, 05:28:40 PM
...
But what we need to remember is, much like the goofy rescue/ground team creed that we're talking about, cadets will do things they think are cool and what they perceive as being done by the Real Military™. Harness that motivation and excitement and demonstrate what is right, which is not always what is easy. Stop putting these young hooahs down for loving CAP as their image of what is *cool* isn't always appropriate.
Precisely.
I know its a clear cut (pun intended) case of topic drift, but I carry my Cold Steel Recon Tanto (in my backpack) since it works as a knife, hatchet, bludgeon, paper weight, etc, and its much harder to lose a big knife when you drop it in a pile of leaves, snow, or sand. It can be driven through steel sheet ( like for instance, a car roof) if necessary. I suggest Cadets stick to folders. There is a very nice assisted-opening knife with a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter that should satisfy the "Ricky Rescue" in all of them. I think its made by S&W. Now I shall sheathe my cutting whit, which I know causes many of you stabbing pains, and whet my appetite for the slicing rebukes sure to come.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on September 25, 2010, 01:43:55 AM
[snip]... a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter... [snip]
It takes a field trip to the local mall to become really proficient.
Quote from: Major Lord on September 25, 2010, 01:43:55 AM
I know its a clear cut (pun intended) case of topic drift, but I carry my Cold Steel Recon Tanto (in my backpack) since it works as a knife, hatchet, bludgeon, paper weight, etc, and its much harder to lose a big knife when you drop it in a pile of leaves, snow, or sand. It can be driven through steel sheet ( like for instance, a car roof) if necessary. I suggest Cadets stick to folders. There is a very nice assisted-opening knife with a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter that should satisfy the "Ricky Rescue" in all of them. I think its made by S&W. Now I shall sheathe my cutting whit, which I know causes many of you stabbing pains, and whet my appetite for the slicing rebukes sure to come.
Major Lord
Quote from: EMT-83 on September 25, 2010, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on September 25, 2010, 01:43:55 AM
[snip]... a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter... [snip]
It takes a field trip to the local mall to become really proficient.
Good thing we don't issue "Totin' Chip" Cards in CAP! ;D
Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 25, 2010, 06:05:33 AM
Good thing we don't issue "Totin' Chip" Cards in CAP! ;D
What's wrong with Totin' Chips? :P
YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!
Quote from: CommGeek on September 25, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!
And I suppose you and the rest of FL wing ground teams are the tip of the speer?
Here is a picture I snapped of a Spring 2009 FTX with a FLWG Squadron. Boy, can I tell you how high speed they were...
[smg id=259]
And of course, the tip of the speer, the "field conditions" that made the FLWG ground team so hardcore.
[smg id=260]
Now here's some old school hard chargers...sorry, not FLWG.
[smg id=261]
Quote from: CommGeek on September 25, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!
(http://dessent.net/tmp/cruise-control-for-cool.jpg)
In the People's Republic of Kalifornia, we refer to the "Totin Chip" as a "CKP", or "Concealed Knife Permit" . They are job security for emergency room doctors, and those who get to practice sutures.
Take it easy on the FL GT folks, remember the terrible challenges they have to face, steep hills, snow, canyons, ooooh wait, never mind.....
I like the Coleman air mattress-Very comfy! Was that an ACTUAL (notice inappropriate use of Capitalization) mission or a SAREX? Might as well be comfortable.....The Marines say you don't have to be practice to be miserable; When its time, God and the Corp will arrange it for you.
Major Lord
In the Boy Scouts of America, the Totin' Chip is a card that shows the Boy Scout has demonstrated proficiency in handling and using knives safely.
Quote from: Major Lord on September 25, 2010, 03:45:52 PM
Take it easy on the FL GT folks, remember the terrible challenges they have to face, steep hills, snow, canyons, ooooh wait, never mind.....
Major Lord
Not all of our terrain is nice and smooth, plus the boiling hot temperatures + humidity during the summer.
Quote from: Major Lord on September 25, 2010, 03:45:52 PMI like the Coleman air mattress-Very comfy! Was that an ACTUAL (notice inappropriate use of Capitalization) mission or a SAREX? Might as well be comfortable.....The Marines say you don't have to be practice to be miserable; When its time, God and the Corp will arrange it for you.
Meh, it was my first experience with a FLWG ground team since 1991 and was told it was going to be very challenging, tough and highly "tactical", whatever that means. I was actually a little nervous because it had been almost 3 or 4 years since I had been in the field with CAP and that was with a different wing. I will admit I was disappointed.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 25, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
Not all of our terrain is nice and smooth, plus the boiling hot temperatures + humidity during the summer.
Grew up as a cadet in Florida and live here now, but I've lived in other places too and I can confirm that Florida is not the only place with high temperatures and humidity. In fact, I think it's more of a challenge to have to contend with a change of seasons that includes both extremes; hot + humidity
AND cold = ice/snow.
Nevermind me, guys. I'm just a hasbeen who enjoys reflecting on his former life as an active CAP member. I'm more of an out-dated old school kind of CAP member that has a different mindset and train of thought.
CAP ground team utilization will vary greatly from wing to wing, depending upon local, county, & state policy/laws on the use of teenagers.
I've observed that cadets are very motivated in this training program (which includes classroom as well as demonstration in field of concepts learned), of course the length of knives, how may knives, etc, does get down to what the senior member in charge is comfortable with the cadets carrying.
I know in our wing, I would consider CAP ground team training as primarily a "cadet retention tool" with very little chance of actual deployment. :( However, lets face it in training we (or cadets) get may not be of immediate use BUT even 5, 10+ years later we may find ourselves in a situation where that past training may very well save us.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 25, 2010, 04:43:50 PMI know in our wing, I would consider CAP ground team training as primarily a "cadet retention tool" with very little chance of actual deployment. :( However, lets face it in training we (or cadets) get may not be of immediate use BUT even 5, 10+ years later we may find ourselves in a situation where that past training may very well save us.
Wow, RM, probably the first thing I've ever agreed with you on.
As a cadet I trained and trained in ES as much as possible to include advanced medical training and field work
not on CAP time. We were just waiting for the "big one"; the big REDCAP to make us heroes. Fortunately in my 4+ years as a cadet we
did participate in some real deal missions to include downed/missing aircraft, missing people and lots of boats.
Although A LOT of people disagree with me, I have always considered ground team operations to be one of the best leadership laboratory venues for cadets. Whether in the field for a weekend bivouac or acting as an assistant team leader, cadets can learn, thrive and gain a lot of experience from being in the field away from dozens of adults telling them what to do every step of the way. It gives them a chance to do things on their own and actually be in charge of their subordinates for real for a change.
How about:
As a CAP Ground Team member while acting as safely as possible, always act in a professional manner, and NEVER do anything to cause embarrassment to CAP while on an assigned mission.
Did I miss anything? Also, not to threadjack but if anyone has tips to get cadets into ES, please share! the ones I've run into are generally not interested, particularly after the ICS requirements hit.
Quote from: MikeD on September 26, 2010, 06:08:09 AMAlso, not to threadjack but if anyone has tips to get cadets into ES, please share! the ones I've run into are generally not interested, particularly after the ICS requirements hit.
Any and all CBTs like ICS and then having to spend a weekend in a classroom deters a lot of people from getting involved in ES. Unfortunately they have made it a necessary evil.
First, click
here (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3743.0;attach=1354) and have them available as a step-by-step guide to becoming a ground team member. I did that in 2007 so check it to make sure it's still accurate.
May I also suggest reading my
"looks count" (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1905.0) thread I started in 2007 as well. I think looks
do count, especially when you involve cadets in the mix. Beware that I write a lot and I think my opinion is the only one that matters so if you know what's good for you don't read
this post (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg49278#msg49278). 8)
Here (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg49582#msg49582) is a really good discussion about planning training and I have some attachments available in some of my posts. I'd suggest reading through this thread...for real.
Finally,
this thread (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2566.msg47480#msg47480) deals with exactly your question.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 25, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
In the Boy Scouts of America, the Totin' Chip is a card that shows the Boy Scout has demonstrated proficiency in handling and using knives safely.
...and when you do something unsafe like Mumblety-peg, target axes, etc., a corner of the card is torn off for each infraction - 4th tear?
Card is yanked, you lose your "sharps" privileges and go back to square 1.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 27, 2010, 12:37:55 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 25, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
In the Boy Scouts of America, the Totin' Chip is a card that shows the Boy Scout has demonstrated proficiency in handling and using knives safely.
...target axes...
Unless it's an activity at summer camp... >:D
I had so much fun doing that.
Quote4th tear?
Card is yanked, you lose your "sharps" privileges and go back to square 1.
I could have sworn I heard somewhere that they burned the totin' chip edges and cut the fireman 'chit.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 27, 2010, 12:51:14 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 27, 2010, 12:37:55 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 25, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
In the Boy Scouts of America, the Totin' Chip is a card that shows the Boy Scout has demonstrated proficiency in handling and using knives safely.
...target axes...
Unless it's an activity at summer camp... >:D
I had so much fun doing that.
Quote4th tear?
Card is yanked, you lose your "sharps" privileges and go back to square 1.
I could have sworn I heard somewhere that they burned the totin' chip edges and cut the fireman 'chit.
Actually, there is no "official" reference to taking of corners of either but it is a tradition that has been going on for years. I had an Assistant Scoutmaster that thought ripping off corners with his teeth when I was a scout [Eagle 1994].
Quote from: MikeD on September 26, 2010, 06:08:09 AM
...
Did I miss anything? Also, not to threadjack but if anyone has tips to get cadets into ES, please share! the ones I've run into are generally not interested, particularly after the ICS requirements hit.
Fantastic activities that they won't want to miss. Activities with a solid mix of fun, interesting ES, leadership, and the like. Involve them in the planning and execution. Let them run it. They will pull the others in. Add exciting elements. Try to reduce the class stuff. Run competitions - between individual cadets and between your unit and others.
Of course, it is hard to motivate ES or potential ES personnel to train if you don't actually DO real missions. That's a problem that has to be fixed by people likely above your pay grade.
Quote from: JC004 on September 27, 2010, 01:04:10 AMOf course, it is hard to motivate ES or potential ES personnel to train if you don't actually DO real missions.
Whether you're called for missions or not (some don't call cadets, some just don't have missions) act as if there is a real potential to be called up. Practice for the real deal. This will help validate the training and the truth is, you just never know. You may actually get a call one day because a new Wing King is in command or it's a state wide disaster and you have no choice but to help.
The death spiral of "We don't ever get called for real, so what's the point of training?" is what causes a lot of missed opportunity. ES "stuff" doesn't happen on a schedule, and when it finally comes around to your little corner, you are either ready or you're not.
I'd be willing to bet that many of the military and LE people on this board spent years training and never fired a shot in anger or were deployed to a real conflict, yet no one would suggest their preparation was "wasted". Further, done properly, ES, especially ground ops is F-U-N!
Relationships and cooperative support agreements should be in place well before the waters are rising, but when ankles are wet, local agencies will tend to reach for any help they can get, and the lack of an agreement can be fixed with a phone call and an email, but if no one in the unit is ready, no one can play.
I recently had an issue where there was an active ELT on the ramp where one of my units meets. Since they cannot get out of the spiral, no one was prepared to play. This was a mid-summer-evening, low-impact mission, and every cadet who had fam/prep for UDF could have gotten a Find ribbon and an actual sortie, but not a single member was ready, because despite good intentions, the training was never incorporated into their schedule, so it never got done.
Rinse, repeat.
Yes. It works both ways. When volunteers dedicate a lot of time and money - that is gas, hundreds of dollars on required gear (thousands once you start doing electronics and all), etc., they can easily get demotivated with only doing a distress mission maybe every few years (for many).
The analogy is law enforcement or the military is hard because often they are doing SOMETHING that is part of their mission operationally. Police go out doing the things that police do which does not always involve shooting a gun. Shooting a gun is a very small part of being a police officer. When they're out answering calls, they're doing their job. I'm not talking about a specific task like shooting a gun (maybe rendering first aid or something in CAP's case) - I'm talking about doing actual operations outside of training as a whole. This is especially true for ground crews who probably get a lot less mission-wise than pilots. GTMs get a lot less than UDFT.
People are told in the recruiting materials that we do 95% of all inland SAR assigned by AFRCC - all that. That sounds like a lot of action. They often find out later that there's a lot less action. That's a retention problem. It's GOOD that people aren't dying in the woods en masse. It's just a problem for retaining those personnel or asking them to get additional qualifications.
When we had a great ops tempo in 2006 with a lot of actuals, interest went up sky high in the units in which I worked on their ES programs. People wanted to get qualified in higher specialties, get new equipment, train more. The opposite is also true.
A number of CAP members around here started joining other SAR teams or other ES-type groups - some in addition to CAP - some instead. As the number of people doing this increased and more people started asking me to look at doing that myself, I looked into how active these groups were. I didn't want to just train and spend a lot of money. I found out the draw for all of those CAP people was that there were A LOT of searches and all with those groups - an ops tempo far above PAWG's. I saw the appeal like they did.
I am not saying that we should wait to train until we have a lot of missions. That would be plain stupid. At work, I train volunteers for upcoming projects and all sometimes WELL ahead of the time that they will begin. We certainly have to do that in order to have proficiency, preparedness, and all in CAP. When I was an ES officer, I think that I did a good job of getting people trained and ready. 100% of active members were ES qualified. But after they've been waiting for years and years, it sucks. A lot of people question why they are committing their resources and may join another group, cut back on getting new qualifications, not renew some specialties, that sort of thing.
One of the major problems we have is that for many (all the way up the food chain), ES = SAR. Period. Exclamation Point. End-of-discussion.
I think the AF is trying to change that by limiting how many sorties on a Eval are SAR related. Most of the support stuff is incident-type independent.
There are other areas where CAP can actually be a real force multiplier in ES, particularly away from major urban areas. Think about how many other ES agencies would love to have a support structure they could call on for major incidents that would free up their trained front line personnel to work the front lines. You get into some of the rural areas and a third or more of their personnel are staffing the incident because they do not have anyone else to call upon. BTDT.
Quote from: arajca on September 27, 2010, 02:58:21 PM
There are other areas where CAP can actually be a real force multiplier in ES, particularly away from major urban areas. Think about how many other ES agencies would love to have a support structure they could call on for major incidents that would free up their trained front line personnel to work the front lines. You get into some of the rural areas and a third or more of their personnel are staffing the incident because they do not have anyone else to call upon. BTDT.
Can you be a bit more specific? Are we talking about having CAP members fill in as PIOs, radio operators, etc?
Among other duties. Logistics and Fin/Admin staffs. Scribes. Runners. Drivers. Staging Area managers and staff (flight line skills would definitely come in handy here). General purpose type support.
Major cultural shifts would need to occur. CAP does not play nicely inter-agency in many places (in some places they do). Simple case in point: the term "CAP IC" (as opposed to the mission's IC) that seems to be used in many places. ICs say this and it breaks ICS 100.
The other issue is the marketing (yet again!). The promotional stuff, as I said, pumps up the SAR like it's happening constantly for everyone. The general public doesn't know what 95% of AFRCC's SAR is.
Quote from: JC004 on September 27, 2010, 07:14:59 PM
Major cultural shifts would need to occur. CAP does not play nicely inter-agency in many places (in some places they do). Simple case in point: the term "CAP IC" (as opposed to the mission's IC) that seems to be used in many places. ICs say this and it breaks ICS 100.
.
Simple fix: when CAP is not lead agency (which we rarely if ever are when other agencies are involved) CAP IC should be called something like "CAP Element Commander".
Why? The AL position exists for that.
^ hahahhahha.....because we don't already have enough crazy names and descriptive titles to remember in CAP.
Lets make a few more up!!
Parents of Cadets are now..... "MommyDaddyDuesPayers
Senior Members who only show up for activities where food is free..... "Donut thieves"
Members who complain about not wanting any part of CAP where actual work is required....... "Hassle Free Nogoods"
Self Proclaimed CAP know-it-alls....... "Regulation 0 Regulators"
Members part of a Pilot Club, never seen except in an Airplane...... "Captain Cools"
Quote from: JC004 on September 29, 2010, 08:06:45 AM
Why? The AL position exists for that.
AL sits in state/local EOC or ICP as CAP representative.
I'm referring to the person actually directing (commanding) the CAP folks in the field, the "officer in tactical command".
Well there has to be a CAP incident Commander, who is overall responsable for the CAP portion of the incident/event.
The CAP IC may designate an Operations Section Chief to oversea all operations.
Have you taken ICS? this is all outlined in ICS-100, and 200.
Every agency Usually has an IC. Even though there is an overall Incident Commander for the mission...
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 12:34:30 PM
Well there has to be a CAP incident Commander, who is overall responsable for the CAP portion of the incident/event.
The CAP IC may designate an Operations Section Chief to oversea all operations.
Have you taken ICS? this is all outlined in ICS-100, and 200.
Every agency Usually has an IC. Even though there is an overall Incident Commander for the mission...
You're going to have to do a cite on this one for me. I've been all through the 100 and 200 materials and the ONLY place that I've seen a set up like this is when referring to a unified command, which within the scope of these conversations is implicitly known and usually doesn't have to be explicitly stated.
My understanding has always been that there is ONE incident command system for an incident (number of ICs irrelevant). One ops section, one finance/admin section, etc. Not the "CAP has an Ops Section, and Podunk PD has an Ops Section" model that you refer to. You could have 5 CAP ground teams (which from my understanding could potentially contain non-CAP resources reporting to the CAP GTL) which report to the GBD from Localtown PD who reports to the OSC from Localcounty Emergency Management Agency who reports to the IC from Localstate Emergency Management Agency (or to the Unified Incident Command). Am I going down the right road here?
First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals. ICS is flexible and is used differently whereever you go.
Missing A/C Mission.
in Florida A/C SAR gets tasked to CAP. So FLWG would setup an IC, with a compliment of staff positions (As needed)
Lets say that we now know that the a/c is located in Bay County. More than likely Bay county Fire or Sheriff will setup Incident Commanders. Yes I know the book says unified command. But that rarely happens. The CAP IC is responsible for CAP stuff, While the Fire IC is responsible for fire stuff.
When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command. Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.
Most of the time its hard for CAP'ers or volunteers to grasp unless yo use it every day.
CAP regulations also state that CAP must have an IC in command of the mission. We cant let a Fire/Law IC have operational control over our assets.
Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.
Did i confuse you or help?
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 04:27:13 PM
First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals....
{snip}
When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command. Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.
1. In a previous post you seemed to hold that ICS was the reason that CAP had its own incident commander and now you seem to hold that ICS is a nice text but doesn't reflect reality. It would seem that you want to have it both ways.
2. Area command is currently covered in ICS 400 and the information I got was that an area command was set up to handle multiple ICPs each working on different incidents whereas you seem to suggest that area command covers different ICPs for the same incident. I must disagree with you. What you describe should be handled by a unified command structure.
People aren't wearing enough hats...
Why do the Rangers need to try and take over like this? The Rangers are a joke, when they get out of their little school they aren't qualified in ES. All they are qualified in is Survival. I personaly feel that the Ranger Program should be closed and the funds go towards actual Emergency Services Training like NESA.
What does ICS have to do with Rangers
Eclipse....are you referencing this?
Awsome Video on Incident Command and Unifed Command...and why Unified Command dosent work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iIz3tl5Vw
(10 min Exerpt ...Full version here.) http://cts.virginia.edu/videos/hatsOfIncidentCommand.zip
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 01, 2010, 04:41:47 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 04:27:13 PM
First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals....
{snip}
When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command. Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.
1. In a previous post you seemed to hold that ICS was the reason that CAP had its own incident commander and now you seem to hold that ICS is a nice text but doesn't reflect reality. It would seem that you want to have it both ways.
2. Area command is currently covered in ICS 400 and the information I got was that an area command was set up to handle multiple ICPs each working on different incidents whereas you seem to suggest that area command covers different ICPs for the same incident. I must disagree with you. What you describe should be handled by a unified command structure.
The main reason CAP must have an IC is HSPD-5 states that in order to receive funding you must comply with ICS. CAP R60-3 States we must have IC's and use ICS. and in the real world each responding agency has their own IC. That's just the way it is. Unified Command is great, but usually only used 'on paper'. Some jurisdictions are really good with it. others not soo much.
CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC. There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff. Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC. Not another agency IC.
Deepwater Horizon had a USCG/BP IC, and CAP had an IC in LA, and FL. Florida Emergency Mgt had an IC, Florida Environmental protection had an IC.....
my previous post has a great video on unified Command.
Lets take a look at the State and Federal (NotCAP) response to Deepwater Horizon.
There was a unifed command with USCG/BP Right? WRONG. on paper and in the press releases it looked that way. The only thing that was unified was the building they were all in. everyone wants to be in charge....Watch the video.
Area Commands can be used for both the same or separate incidents. AC is basically a clearing house for resources , and so that there is no duplication of effort.
Hurricane Katrina (federal Response)
7 Area Commands, all with their own ICP's....all on the same incident
2004 FL Hurricanes (State/Federal Response)
4 separate responces in Florida. 4 separate ICP's reporting to one Area Command.
ICS is flexible.
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:26:06 PM
Eclipse....are you referencing this?
Awsome Video on Incident Command and Unifed Command...and why Unified Command dosent work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iIz3tl5Vw
No. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:40:31 PM
CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC. There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff. Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC. Not another agency IC.
And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.
Quote from: arajca on October 01, 2010, 06:27:41 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:40:31 PM
CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC. There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff. Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC. Not another agency IC.
And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.
Why is this a problem?
This is how every other orginization operates. If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?
Quote from: Flint on October 01, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
...All they are qualified in is Survival...
And what's wrong with that? If they want to learn how to survive in an emergency situation, they have that choice. Same for CSS.
Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 01, 2010, 07:02:27 PM
Quote from: Flint on October 01, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
...All they are qualified in is Survival...
And what's wrong with that? If they want to learn how to survive in an emergency situation, they have that choice. Same for CSS.
Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.
Thats cool..but dont claim to be Elite, and and make us all look like fools...
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 06:29:30 PM
Quote from: arajca on October 01, 2010, 06:27:41 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:40:31 PM
CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC. There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff. Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC. Not another agency IC.
And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.
Why is this a problem?
This is how every other orginization operates. If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?
If your incident is big enough to be multi-agency in the cases in which we usually operate, you are probably not taking much
tactical direction from the IC. You'd likely have unit leaders, branch directors, section chiefs...
Quote from: JC004 on October 01, 2010, 07:06:05 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 06:29:30 PM
Quote from: arajca on October 01, 2010, 06:27:41 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:40:31 PM
CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC. There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff. Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC. Not another agency IC.
And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.
Why is this a problem?
This is how every other orginization operates. If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?
If your incident is big enough to be multi-agency in the cases in which we usually operate, you are probably not taking much tactical direction from the IC. You'd likely have unit leaders, branch directors, section chiefs...
True. but remember the IC is the defacto boss.... It is implied that where span of control needs to be dropped down another level you would have an Ops Section....
What if its a train derailment, and all they want is one flight to take photos? Do we need 20 people on the staff?
Why cant the IC work it?
The past several REDCAPS in FL have involved CAP and the County Sheriff....Thats it. CAP Had an IC...and the sheriff did too...
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 01, 2010, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 07:04:25 PM
...Thats cool..but dont claim to be Elite...
What?
Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me! then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!
Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 07:14:03 PM
Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me! then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!
Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 01, 2010, 07:02:27 PM
Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.
Again, i've never been to Hawk. I'm just saying, the ones who do go for the actual skills and plan to use them in one way or another have the right to. In my Scout Troop we go camping every month, and knowing how to do 1st Aid or tying knots are helpful for when you need them.
About the Rangers who can't tie knots or find a pulse; It's not that hard. Either they went for the badge and got nothing out of it or went to become a "Ranger", and again got nothing out of it. ::) I mean, geez I could do basic 1st Aid when I was 10. Not that hard.
(Well, I guess having an AF TSgt SERE Instructor as the head honcho on our annual Winderness Survival campout doesn't hurt either. )
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 01, 2010, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 07:14:03 PM
Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me! then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!
Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 01, 2010, 07:02:27 PM
Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.
Again, i've never been to Hawk. I'm just saying, the ones who do go for the actual skills and plan to use them in one way or another have the right to. In my Scout Troop we go camping every month, and knowing how to do 1st Aid or tying knots are helpful for when you need them.
About the Rangers who can't tie knots or find a pulse; It's not that hard. Either they went for the badge and got nothing out of it or went to become a "Ranger", and again got nothing out of it. ::) I mean, geez I could do basic 1st Aid when I was 10. Not that hard.
I think I like this Guy!!!!
In my personal experience it all depends on the incident: its size, nature and really how well and if the participating agencies have ever worked together (and if they have worked well in the past)
I have seen incidents where no one wants to work together and there are 4 mini incidents all going a the same time and I have seen it all fall into place like ICS claims it will.....
mk
PS I am not sure where this turned into a Ranger discussion either; but hey thanks for sticking to the predictable downfall of all CAPTALK threads. If someone could just throw in some good beret, ABU, and special badge requirements and perhaps a nazi and firearm and red lights/siren reference we will have hit all the killers.....
Talk about drifting off topic! Oh well. With all these replies, I never knew I would be so popular. :o ;D
Quote from: GTCommando on October 02, 2010, 03:08:49 AM
Talk about drifting off topic! Oh well. With all these replies, I never knew I would be so popular. :o ;D
Ya it has kinda gotten away from the Creed question. Has anyone made up a decent one on here yet?
More importantly, IMHO, have we even established a real need for a creed in the first place?
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2010, 04:18:42 AM
More importantly, IMHO, have we even established a real need for a creed in the first place?
Maybe not a real need for one but it would be something to help answer the question asked. Figured we might try to salvage the original post.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2010, 04:18:42 AM
More importantly, IMHO, have we even established a real need for a creed in the first place?
It'd be nice to have something to put on GSAR coins that was consistent.
have we established a need for a "GSAR Coin"???????
CAP GROUND TEAMS: If you die, We're splitting up your gear...
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:24:03 PM
What does ICS have to do with Rangers
Not much, since "Ranger" in CAP is a limited term used only within certain wings & training programs.
Our ES qualifications in this field are GBD, GTL, GTM 1/2/3, UDF...no Rangers, Lone or otherwise!
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on October 03, 2010, 02:37:36 PM
CAP GROUND TEAMS: If you die, We're splitting up your gear...
Nice :clap:
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 03, 2010, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:24:03 PM
What does ICS have to do with Rangers
Not much, since "Ranger" in CAP is a limited term used only within certain wings & training programs.
Our ES qualifications in this field are GBD, GTL, GTM 1/2/3, UDF...no Rangers, Lone or otherwise!
I hate to disagree but I will any way. We do have "Lone Rangers" it's the entire ES Program in PAWG. :P
Quote from: Flint on October 22, 2010, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 03, 2010, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on October 01, 2010, 05:24:03 PM
What does ICS have to do with Rangers
Not much, since "Ranger" in CAP is a limited term used only within certain wings & training programs.
Our ES qualifications in this field are GBD, GTL, GTM 1/2/3, UDF...no Rangers, Lone or otherwise!
I hate to disagree but I will any way. We do have "Lone Rangers" it's the entire ES Program in PAWG. :P
Granted, but it is not a nation wide term used in official documents to designate ground team personnel.
It is, putting the best spin on it, a 'historical heritage' term within CAP...some programs and wings have used it, admittedly, for decades.
Don't care for it myself...I think there are forest rangers, Texas Rangers (LEO), Texas Rangers (MLB team who just trounced my beloved Yankees!) and US Army Rangers...none of which seem to have the remotest connection to what CAP does in ES GT area.
I suppose it entices cadets (and others who are still young at heart!) into participating.
I still don't like it, but to each their own!
There is reasons why we called them Hard Core CAP Ninja Rangers, Please guys... do your mission, then RTB.
There is already a CAP SAR Creed. I've seen it attributed to a several different people: Reed Landis, John Curry, and perhaps Gill Robb Wilson.
It comes from the day when we did more searches and first written down in 1944. It states;
"To find the lost and the dead - so - they are lost no more."
Quote from: Smithsonia on March 23, 2011, 02:30:01 AM
There is already a CAP SAR Creed. I've seen it attributed to a several different people: Reed Landis, John Curry, and perhaps Gill Robb Wilson.
It comes from the day when we did more searches and first written down in 1944. It states;
"To find the lost and the dead - so - they are lost no more."
I like it. Simple and eloquent. Should fit on a coin ;D
More of a motto than a creed, though, I like it. Keep it.
Quote from: Smithsonia on March 23, 2011, 02:30:01 AM
There is already a CAP SAR Creed. I've seen it attributed to a several different people: Reed Landis, John Curry, and perhaps Gill Robb Wilson.
It comes from the day when we did more searches and first written down in 1944. It states;
"To find the lost and the dead - so - they are lost no more."
I like it. Though I would take out "and the dead", because we don't really search for the dead.
CAP has done quite a few cadaver searches. I have been on one... CAP will search for pretty much anything that is lost. The SAR motto is good, still not a creed, but inreally do like it and it actually makes sense.
Gonna be hard to summarize all this on a tattoo...
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 23, 2011, 02:46:44 PM
CAP has done quite a few cadaver searches. I have been on one... CAP will search for pretty much anything that is lost. The SAR motto is good, still not a creed, but inreally do like it and it actually makes sense.
I wasn't aware we did such things. Disregard my last then. :P
Quote from: N Harmon on March 23, 2011, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 23, 2011, 02:46:44 PM
CAP has done quite a few cadaver searches. I have been on one... CAP will search for pretty much anything that is lost. The SAR motto is good, still not a creed, but inreally do like it and it actually makes sense.
I wasn't aware we did such things. Disregard my last then. :P
Think of it this way: When we get sent on an ELT search a day after the fact you are most likely going to find dead bodies not live ones...
Quote from: davidsinn on March 23, 2011, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: N Harmon on March 23, 2011, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 23, 2011, 02:46:44 PM
CAP has done quite a few cadaver searches. I have been on one... CAP will search for pretty much anything that is lost. The SAR motto is good, still not a creed, but inreally do like it and it actually makes sense.
I wasn't aware we did such things. Disregard my last then. :P
Think of it this way: When we get sent on an ELT search a day after the fact you are most likely going to find dead bodies not live ones...
Or a 3 day old missing person search in the middle of winter (during which time there was a blizzard)...
It's just the reality we face in what we do.
Not to say you shouldn't treat every search as if there was a living person who needs you to be there as soon as you possibly can get there.
"To find the lost and the dead - so - they are lost no more."
I think this means - we can't promise to find downed pilots alive... just find them. When out on a search we do our best even when we're pretty sure there are no survivors.
So the faithfulness and doggedness of the duty - and the SAR Dog - meet in this motto/creed. Additionally, it adds drama and gravity, which is always good in Motto making.
Also it is powerfully poetic as in, The Naked and the Dead, The Living and the Dead. Given that it comes from the WW2 era, this complex cultural moment is always summed up in fatalistic but heroic terms.
In 1944 the number one song was; "I'll be home for Christmas... if only in my dreams." Restoring men or their lifeless bodies- to the family or at least the familiar was the most important sentiment of the day. All of these cultural influences are in these words.
Quote from: MSgt Van on March 23, 2011, 02:49:03 PM
Gonna be hard to summarize all this on a tattoo...
Can National C&D a tatoo artist? ::)
Quote from: MSgt Van on March 23, 2011, 02:49:03 PM
Gonna be hard to summarize all this on a tattoo...
Do you think maroon feet would work? >:D