Search & Rescue vs. Search & Locate

[Smokey]

My post regarding the rescue pilot patch seemed to provoke a bit of discussion about CAP versus the Air Force PJs. 

I have the utmost respect for PJs. I think they go through tougher training than any other military unit (Please don't start a PJ vs SEALS vs DELTA vs Recon argument here).  I have a friend who was a PJ.

That said, they cannot fulfill their mission without the rest of the team. That team consists of the aircrews that get them to where they need to do their thing. The PJs get to crash sites and other rescues via aircraft in most cases. It may be a helicopter or a C-130. But it was the aircrew, pilot, copilot, crew chief, etc. that got them there. It was in that vein I made the comment about the patch.

Some folks thought we should never try to come close to comparing ourselves with the PJs. While we may not compare in total skill level and training, our mission is the same. To save lives. One poster commented we are not "Search & Rescue" but rather "Search & Locate."  I think that is the wrong attitude.  Every time I go out on a missing aircraft mission I have a rescue  mindset. While many times we find those beyond rescue status, we best not go into the mission thinking we are only going to locate dead folk.

If flying a SAR mission and I locate a crash site, I will not be doing a physical rescue. That will be done by our ground crews, law enforcement, fire, or even PJs.  I am no less a part of the rescue of those survivors however.

What we do is the same (without the combat aspect) as the Air Force. We may prosecute the mission with different aircraft but the goal is the same. We get our missions from the same place the PJs do....the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC) not the Air Force Locate Coordination Center.

I'm proud of CAP's efforts. We are part of the rescue community. We make no less of a contribution. Plus we do it for free.

[Flying Pig]

While I agree with your attitude on the whole picture of the rescue, even down to the flight line marshaler and the fuel truck driver.  We are all part of the big machine.  However, especially with military and even some Law Enforcement, it has always just been understood that there are people who are the final piece of the puzzle.  The aircrew, the pilots, the crew chief are all there to get the Rescuer to the site so he can do his job.

In the military, you have the grunts, then you have the Green Berets or Force Recon.  You have Air Force Paramedics or rescue personnel, then you have PJ's.  You have police officers, then you have a Hostage Rescue Team member.  They arent any more important but they ARE different. As a former Marine Grunt, believe me I KNEW I wasnt a Force Recon Marine and wouldnt have been caught dead wearing something that might give people the impression that I was.  Before I got onto SWAT, I KNEW I wasn't a SWAT team member.
My wife was an intel analyst assigned to a Special Forces Group.  She assisted, helped them perform their mission, and was apart of the machine, but she wasn't an "operator".  Nobody is any more important than anybody else in the scheme of things.  Its not a defined line, its just something that is understood by those that are in the business. 
Your attitude is commendable, however, I think you may find that comparing our contribution to the contribution of the Para Rescue Community may be a little over zealous.  And when we are trying to make a comparison, throwing in the line about doing it for free doesn't really score us any points in the eyes of those we are trying to emulate.

[lordmonar]

I disagre....I think that we do it for free does buy us some cred with the paid SAR folk....at least here in Southern Nevada.

Sure we are not as well trained.....sure we spend a lot of time working out the bugs and reinventing the wheel every other SAREX/SAR.

But they do respect us for what we do bring to the fight.

I do think we need to keep the Search and Rescue attitude as opposed to the search and locate attitude.  We are part of the big picture....just like the AD folk working the AFRCC desk and the operators at the COPAS station....to the guys flying the planes, the guys working the radios, manning the planning section, marshalling the aircraft.....and finally the guys who go out and "rescue" the victums.

My job as a MRO may not involve any thing to do with "rescue"....but I most certainly am part of the SAR community.

As for  taking on the motto and symbols of other rescure organisations......I think that most people are over thinking that.

Go see all the threads we had on the term "ranger" here and a military.com.

[KyCAP]

I agree that a sense of urgency should be taken and in some missions we are First Responders.

However, the language Search and Locate is actually what is in the language from the FAA in the CFR

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=40760189a03dfea0b501608f33820a45&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.5.1.8

61.113(e) - Search and Location.

However, I have never understood that either.... We are all parts of the RESCUE process.

[RiverAux]

Yes, it is very rare that CAP actually rescues anybody.  But "rare" still means that every year we get credit for dozens of saves from AFRCC.  Just because we don't rescue everybody, doesn't mean that we don't rescue anybody. 

[Duke Dillio]

I have to go with both sides of this argument.  In some places, we do only "search and locate" missions.  Mostly I have found that this was due to some bad experience that someone had with CAP 20 years ago and they haven't forgotten it.  Thus, most everywhere that I have been west of the Rockies, I have found sheriffs and other law enforcement people who give CAP ground teams no credit and they do their own thing.  These people like our aircraft but that is about the extent of it.  I have only been "operational" in three states this side: Colorado, Oregon, and California, so I cannot say that this is true of all states west of the Rockies.

On the other hand, I know that some CAP ground teams have been used fairly regularly in which actual targets were found and people were saved.  As I recall, there was a story here a little bit ago about a team that found a survivor and got the EMS people in for the extrication, keeping the guy alert until the rescue people arrived.  The guy did an interview for the Volunteer as I remember and was very appreciative of our efforts.

Here's the facts as I see them, and please feel free to express your opinion in a dignified manner versus just throwing personal attacks.  I have been around some people in CAP that have the training and the will to practice at the highest level (i.e. high angle rescue technicians, paramedics and nurses, etc.).  I learn what I can from them in an effort to increase my own knowledge level but I don't take it as saying I am qualified to do anything special.  Yes, I could safely rappel down a 60 foot cliff.  Yes, I could safely extract someone at the bottom of that cliff.  Do I practice this enough to where I feel that people would see me as competent to do so?  No.  I don't personally have the money to buy all of the required equipment.  I have the time to continue the training but I don't personally see the need as this will probably never occur on any CAP mission.

When I train people to be ground team members, I don't take the approach that we are the baddest mofo's out there or that we can walk on water.  I present the training in the most realistic light possible.  For the most part, ground teams in California are non-existent.  There is a small group of us who are working to fix this.  UDF teams get a lot of calls around here but working ground teams rarely get to go out and play.  For example, we had a guy who crashed between Tahoe and Truckee.  Just watching the emails, I knew that I wasn't going to get a call.  They were asking for aircrews and mission base personnel.  When they found the target, the sheriff called in his teams and that was the end of our involvement.

We can change some of these things.  Getting a better reputation or establishing a line of communication with the local sheriff will garner fabulous results.  The problem that I hear all the time though is that people won't/don't take the time to work on that relationship.  Making things change requires someone to step up and say "I'm gonna go talk to the sheriff today" or some likewise action.  Instead, all I hear most of the time is people saying "Well the sheriff will never call us" or something like that.  Well, the sheriff isn't going to call you if he doesn't know about you.  If he had a bad incident with CAP in the past, maybe it's time to change his opinion by showing him who you are and what you are capable of. 

What is wrong with going and asking what their standards are and meeting them?  It has been my experience that many of the skills that are required of the paid guys are the same things that we are already training.  You cannot do search and rescue anywhere without knowing how to read a map or a compass.  It is our job to play his game.  It's not our job to tell him how he needs to do his thing.  Remember, it's his fiefdom and he will tell you how to qualify.  If you don't want to play that game or follow his standards, then don't expect to get a call from him.

I have also heard this argument about having "too many standards" and that if you live in a place where you are close to three different counties or two different states, then you have to come up with sixteen different training forms etc.  This is total BS.  Most of these states have a council of sheriffs or what have you who set the curriculum so there is very little variation between different areas.  The basics are always the same.

If you are content with the status quo, i.e. not getting many missions, no ground team work, etc, then don't do anything and nothing will change.  If, however, you are interested in going in on every missing person, dog, or airplane search, then do something about it.  Your unit has the tools to complete the task and if you don't have an idea, then talk to someone at group or wing.  Just get it done.

[JayT]

What we do is the same (without the combat aspect) as the Air Force. We may prosecute the mission with different aircraft but the goal is the same. We get our missions from the same place the PJs do....the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC) not the Air Force Locate Coordination Center.

I'm proud of CAP's efforts. We are part of the rescue community. We make no less of a contribution. Plus we do it for free.

I agree with you. We are part of the rescue community. We do make a contribution. I am also proud of CAP's efforts.

However, once you start with "Well, we may have a different training and airframes then the PJs, but we're still after the same goal," then you're in trouble. Comparing us to military search and rescue services at all is trouble.

I'm an EMT-B with a private company. We do a lot of routine transports, but we get a few "Ah, Hell, don't let this person die in the back of my bus" calls a week. However, that doesn't mean I'm gonna be hanging with FDNY Paramedics and telling war stories, ya dig?