A Commission?

[SAR-EMT1]

I think you are right, Mikey.  As I recall, persons in the UK, Canada, etc. can serve in Auxiliary positions.  Most are former officers.  In Canada they operate the Air Cadet Program.  Officers who are non-selected for promotion can still serve, and get promoted in Auxiliary slots.

I'm not fully clued-in on all the details, but I have talked to such officers at "Dinings-in" and the feature I thought best is that in the Canadian Air Cadet Program, the officers are NEVER recruited "Off the street" as we in CAP do.  All of them come from the Canadian Forces.

Thats true, However, from what I know of the program, while the Officers DO come from the CF, the requirements (physical and academic) are relaxed. So it is a bit of a misnomer.. Canadian Forces uses the term CIC-CF (Cadet Instructor Cadre- Canadian Forces)   Britains version of this is the
Royal (Navy, Air Force, Army) Volunteer Reserve - Training

In Canada, CIC Officer Candidates complete a 10 day OCS followed by a week long course in their respective specialty track. Once done they receive a limited duty Commission.
While they do not get paid per se, they still get per diems and reimbursement like we do for certain items. And Officer privileges. Also, they do not fall under the local version of the UCMJ nor can they give orders to Active Duty subordinates.
But in the end it is still true that they are Commissioned Officers in the Military in an Aux status.

[RiverAux]

I assume that what the poll is asking is whether or not people would be willing to join CAP if they had to follow the same rules and regulations and presumably punishments as officers in the armed forces?

With me, it depends on if they also provided some of the same protections, especially employment, to CAP members as they do to National Guard and Reserve members.

[O-Rex]

I stumbled on to the UK's Air Cadet site, and their seniors have an interesting progression: if you have no prior mil exp, then you become an "instructor" (SM equivalent) for a year (!) then you go to a board to see if you are going to pursue an Officer Track or an NCO/WO track.  Officers are actually commissioned in the RAF Volunteer Reserve, and spend a few weeks at an NCO PME Course or an Officer Basic Course (with pay!)  thereafter they actually recieve pay for the equivalent of two weeks on active duty.  It was really cool....

Unlike America, Civil Defense and Auxiliaries have a very special place in British history since they played a big role when Germany bombed their cities...

Could something like that happen in CAP? Not a chance: part of our appeal to USAF is that we are relatively low-cost and (historically) low-maint.

[JayT]

I think you are right, Mikey.  As I recall, persons in the UK, Canada, etc. can serve in Auxiliary positions.  Most are former officers.  In Canada they operate the Air Cadet Program.  Officers who are non-selected for promotion can still serve, and get promoted in Auxiliary slots.

I'm not fully clued-in on all the details, but I have talked to such officers at "Dinings-in" and the feature I thought best is that in the Canadian Air Cadet Program, the officers are NEVER recruited "Off the street" as we in CAP do.  All of them come from the Canadian Forces.

Thats incorrect Major, many, if not most of the Air Training Corps Officer Corp are not former officers.

[James Shaw]

Let me clear up my initial question because it seems to be veering somewhat.

For example: I will be turning 40 on the 24th of Oct. I have the required college degrees and could be in better shape with a few more workouts and less computer time. I make a good living and have a beautiful home and family. The only way I could afford to return to the reserves is a Commission. I colud do that if I were to go back in for about 5 years and apply, but those 5 years would be damaging financially for me. Beacuse of my work schedule I would lose about $10K dollars a year to go back in enlisted. If I were to go back in as a commissioned officer it would be a smaller loss of about $4K. If for some strange reason I was contacted by a Recruiting Officer about a reserve commission would you take it given the circumstances. As a single person I would say yes and leave. But as a husband and father of two that is used to a different lifestyle I would be tempted to go but wouldnt want to adversely affect my family.

I would not mind being a 40 year old Ensign or 2LT.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Caphistorian:

A couple of factors here.

I have not been active or reserve in the RM for several years, although officially I'm still in the Army, assigned to the "Retired Reserve."  Some of my information will be dated, therefore.

At 40, I think you are too old for a commission.  There may be waivers you can get, but the last I checked into the matter, there was an age limit of 37.5 years waiverable to 39.5 years of age.

Second, if you are going into the Army, will you be getting a direct commission?  Otherwise, will you be going to OCS?  I went through OCS in my late 20's, and it was rough then.  It would have killed me at 40. 

I need more information to advise you.  PM me if you like.

[James Shaw]

A couple of factors here.

At 40, I think you are too old for a commission.  There may be waivers you can get, but the last I checked into the matter, there was an age limit of 37.5 years waiverable to 39.5 years of age.

Second, if you are going into the Army, will you be getting a direct commission?  Otherwise, will you be going to OCS?  I went through OCS in my late 20's, and it was rough then.  It would have killed me at 40. 

This is not something I could do in the real world. I have a total of 9 years of military service between the Navy and the Army. I have talked to a few recruiters off record and was told it was possible but would be hard. The only thing that would really be in my favor would be my specialty which was Cryptology in the Navy and Intelligence in the Army. Both of those are sought after right now. My degrees are in Manufacturing Technology, Business, and Human Resources management but would have to go back for some sort of IT/ Computer Based Degree. I had even thought about and talked to an AF Reserves Recruiter about going in with them but the most they could offer was an E8 with JSTARS but I would have to leave my job for 7 months for thier Air Crew School. My job will support duty in a war zone but will not support a 7 month long school.

[NAYBOR]

Well, I was wondering why CAP couldn't have federally recognized commissions much like the USPHS Commissioned Corps, or NOAA Commissioned Corps.  While they (USPHS/NOAA) are full time, payed federally commissioned officers, they are NOT military unless "militarized" by order of the president.  They wear uniforms as a "uniformed service".  They cannot, from what I understand, give orders to military officers, even if attached to a military component (unless specifically authorized to do so).  Why can't CAP have something like that?  I'd be willing to give up the "corporate status" if it means CAP could have  federal volunteer commissions.  And the USAF DOES pay for our training (professional developmemt, SOS if we want to partake in that, AWC, etc.)  They could restructure the moneys spent for the first few "levels" we presently have to have an OCS--that may even save money!

USCG AUX and USAF AUX--both should have volunteer commissions and officer priveledges--many would be willing to take one and the benefits to volunteer time and energy--we already do now for much less!

OK, my $0.02 on the soap box...

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, I was wondering why CAP couldn't have federally recognized commissions much like the USPHS Commissioned Corps, or NOAA Commissioned Corps.  While they (USPHS/NOAA) are full time, payed federally commissioned officers, they are NOT military unless "militarized" by order of the president.  They wear uniforms as a "uniformed service".  They cannot, from what I understand, give orders to military officers, even if attached to a military component (unless specifically authorized to do so).  Why can't CAP have something like that?  I'd be willing to give up the "corporate status" if it means CAP could have  federal volunteer commissions.  And the USAF DOES pay for our training (professional developmemt, SOS if we want to partake in that, AWC, etc.)  They could restructure the moneys spent for the first few "levels" we presently have to have an OCS--that may even save money!

USCG AUX and USAF AUX--both should have volunteer commissions and officer priveledges--many would be willing to take one and the benefits to volunteer time and energy--we already do now for much less!

OK, my $0.02 on the soap box...

^^ What he said (couldnt have said it better)

[Eclipse]

They cannot, from what I understand, give orders to military officers, even if attached to a military component (unless specifically authorized to do so).  Why can't CAP have something like that?

So what's the point then?

USCG AUX and USAF AUX--both should have volunteer commissions and officer privileges--many would be willing to take one and the benefits to volunteer time and energy--we already do now for much less!

Since you can't have us being paid on any level without changing the ENTIRE auxiliary ROI, we have to continue this discussion as unpaid volunteers.

I am very curious as to these "privileges" and "benefits" we would get as Commissioned officers - especially in light of the fact that the commissioned would likely be in the minority, meaning those working for us still wouldn't have to listen.

The whole point and reason for a "commission" is to grant legal, binding authority for the purposes of performing the mission (whatever it is).  That doesn't have any standing with volunteers.

They will still say "Yes, Sir" or "Go salute yourself", based on their personal whims and internal ROI. Whether you are the "Big A" or "Little A" that day won't change that, and those of us who know how to "Shut Up and Color" will still do that as a matter of principle and professionalism, not the commission.

And a shoulder mark without the "CAP" on it isn't going to buy you anymore respect if you can't perform your duties, any more than the RealMilitary® cares now >what< you wear if you are getting it done for them.

[RiverAux]

I don't see any real benefit to such commissions.  What would it change? 

However, even if there were Commissions, that doesn't necessarily mean the feds have to pay you.  During WWII the CG had a "Temporary Reserve" which included a range of options from unpaid volunteer, part time paid, and full-time paid members that were generally recruited from the ranks of the CG Aux.  That option is still available to the CG, but there has been no need for it. 

[NAYBOR]

Because, even in the USPHS and NOAA, one salutes other officers of a higher grade, regardless of service.  Officers within the commissioned corps must still obey the officers appointed above them, whether USPHS over USPHS officers, NOAA officers over other NOAA officers, Coast Guard officers over USPHS officers (which DOES happen), etc.  The same structure can be used for CAP.  SDF officers have commissions--all are unpaid voulteers, too.  The point:  a militarized, definite chain of command that people would have to OBEY.  We in CAP, other than getting 2B'd, don't have to obey any one.  The 2B does not cary any legal or civil authority--you just can't be in CAP anymore.  Those with a commission would definitely have to follow a definite chain of command, would carry legal priveldeges, penalties, etc.

The USAF does not use Warrant Officer grades anymore--maybe CAP could use Warrant Officer grades (which has been siggested before), which could be official warrants from the Secretary of the AF--WO1 (present 2d LT), WO 2 (present 1LT), WO 3 (Present Capt), WO 4 (Present Major), WO 5 (Present Lt Col).  Upper level commanders would carry the federal "volunteer" commissions and Chief Warrant officer designations--CW 1 (Present Col), CW 2 (Present Brig Gen), and CW3 (Present Maj. Gen)--ALL within the Air Force.  We would carry federal rank, but with AF warrant officer grades specifically reserved to CAP officers.  And since we are all "technical specialists" within CAP (pilots, observers, medical, IT, etc.), it fits in perfectly with that, too.

Again, just some thoughts.

[Eclipse]

If you're just trolling for a salute, well, we're done here - they are required today, at least internally.
So is obeying your superiors, etc., etc.

We should not mistake "the ability to quit", with the "lack of a requirement to obey your superiors".
Especially in real-world ES situations, you may cross a line where you cannot quit until you are finished.
You can say "no" before you go, but once you're in, you're in.  Negligence may well have significant civil penalties, as may failure to properly perform a respective duty.

The difference between a commissioned service and non-commissioned service is the ability to say "no" to a lawful order.  But who are you going to order?

Unless 100% of the assets are commissioned or "enlisted", there is no  legal authority, and again, those inclined to accept the extra steps and responsibility of a commission are likely to already be inclined to follow instructions and play ball. You've got to consider that a big chunk of our most valuable assets - our pilots - are captains because they are pilots, and have no interest whatsoever in professional development, so what good is a commissioned unit commander who can't "order" 1/2 his people, perhaps the most important half, to do anything?

The enlisted ranks of the RealMilitary® are legally bound, top to bottom, to obey the lawful orders of their officers, we're not.  And unless you intend to change the face of CAP to a "less voluntary" service, that's not going to change.

Another issue is our non-combatant status - we simply have no reason to "order" anybody to do anything.
An "order" is only necessary to make someone do something they don't want to do - like kill or injure another person.  Our people are involved in benevolent activities which they >want< to be involved in. Rarely do you have to order a SAR pilot to go fly and find someone.

You've used the term "privileges" several times, but haven't detailed one.

Those of us who comport ourselves as officers and gentlemen (i.e. unpaid professionals) already get the respect and courtesies. I get plenty of salutes and "Sirs", and although if you're in a rough spot it can make your day, it generally gets a little unexciting after a while.

We already are afforded access to military facilities and resources - everything I've ever needed, as long as I ask nice and say "please".

While on A-Missions we are afforded a good deal of insurance and workers comp protection, not to mention death benefits from many states.

An increasing number of states are offering job protection to CAP and other volunteer ES agencies (though blanket protection would be nice).

What else do you want, or expect a commission would get you?

[Eclipse]

... the most they could offer was an E8 with JSTARS but I would have to leave my job for 7 months for thier Air Crew School. My job will support duty in a war zone but will not support a 7 month long school.

E8 in the door would get my attention.

Can they refuse your service? I would think once you have orders you're locked in - what they have you doing while you're gone isn't their business.

I realize that if you work for a smaller company or are self-employed there are economic realities to having you gone, but if you got deployed it would probably be longer, or in spurts adding up to more.

[James Shaw]

Let me say it has nothing to do with a salute or wanting to be a "real officer". This question was based on economics for the most part. I am not trying to get or steer towards AD or RES commissions in the CAP. Not my intent. I dont have to have a Commission to make myself feel good. Purely a questions of Economics not ego. I work for Procter and Gamble and allready make a good living (11 years).

[Dustoff]

Caphistorian:

A couple of factors here.

I have not been active or reserve in the RM for several years, although officially I'm still in the Army, assigned to the "Retired Reserve."  Some of my information will be dated, therefore.

At 40, I think you are too old for a commission.  There may be waivers you can get, but the last I checked into the matter, there was an age limit of 37.5 years waiverable to 39.5 years of age.

Second, if you are going into the Army, will you be getting a direct commission?  Otherwise, will you be going to OCS?  I went through OCS in my late 20's, and it was rough then.  It would have killed me at 40. 

I need more information to advise you.  PM me if you like.

Last time I heard, the AF Reserve was commissioning Registered Nurses (B.S. degree) up to age 47.

YMMV

Jim

[NAYBOR]

Eclipse, there is no need or want for a commission--I already have one.  It's just for RECOGNITION--nothing more, nothing less.  My experience is that those in the military who know about CAP keep CAP people at arms length, and those that don't could give two terds about CAP.  Official rank may give those who volunteer in CAP a little more of a step up from "terd" in some eyes, and most definitely give a espirit de corps, both in CAP and the military, of being "part of the team" again.

[SAR-EMT1]

You've used the term "privileges" several times, but haven't detailed one.

Those of us who comport ourselves as officers and gentlemen (i.e. unpaid professionals) already get the respect and courtesies. I get plenty of salutes and "Sirs", and although if you're in a rough spot it can make your day, it generally gets a little unexciting after a while.

We already are afforded access to military facilities and resources - everything I've ever needed, as long as I ask nice and say "please".

While on A-Missions we are afforded a good deal of insurance and workers comp protection, not to mention death benefits from many states.

An increasing number of states are offering job protection to CAP and other volunteer ES agencies (though blanket protection would be nice).

What else do you want, or expect a commission would get you?

Well, maybe you do fine at Great Lakes, but some of us have to jump through a lot of hoops to get on base. So for starters ... no hassle base access.

Second (ties in with one) it would eliminate any questions as to whether or not we have the right to use the clothing and sales store. Or the Flight Club  or anything else , without having to look up regs while the folks in the line behind you get upset at the delay. (not saying we need full privileges at the BX, Walmart is cheaper anyway)

Third how about the same job protection Iowa has - for every state- (having a commission would do this as we'd be under the guard and reserve act)

POSSIBLY a Uniform allowance.

Legitimacy in the eyes of the other USAF components (and certain sherriffs deputies when we are out on that 3am ELT hunt. Also more of a team atmosphere. You mention you get plenty of salutes at the NTC but Ive never had one in either my CAP or USCG Aux uniform. - not saying its important, just stating fact-

Personal Recognition and possibly the ability to become eligible for USAF ribbons/medals/awards.

I can think of some more but I dont have the time.

[RiverAux]

I'm reasonably sure that no one in the US Public Health Service or NOAA go to jail if they refuse an "order".  Why not?  Because although they are uniformed, they are not a member of the Armed Forces and I doubt (but admit, that I don't know for sure), that they are not subject to UCMJ. 

[Eclipse]

You mention you get plenty of salutes at the NTC but Ive never had one in either my CAP or USCG Aux uniform. - not saying its important, just stating fact-

You've never received a salute, period, in your CAP uniform, or just from the RealMilitary®?  If the former is true, there are bigger issues there, if its the latter, well those are the breaks.

Legitimacy and recognition don't come from grade - they come from performance.  Plain and simple.  If you or your people aren't getting it, then its time to change the attack pattern and try something new.