A Commission?

[Eclipse]

There shoudl be job protection for anyone who chooses to stop their "regular" lives and go and help others, especially organizations like the ARC and CAP, who deploy regularly for long periods of time.

Any national ES asset should have the same protection.

Your comparison of CAP to the RealMilitary® in this regard is simply a troll to start an argument, I hope no one else will take the bait. 

[gallagheria]

[Yes - especially since I still have to lose wages or use vacation time to go.  ....

It is still optional and your choice.  And what about us poor self-employed folks?  Even the self-employed Reserve and National Guard folks got no help as they watch their businesses go down the drain while they were deployed.

... On a 2am ELT, yes, deployed to  MS for a week+ on 24 hours notice, no. In some cases we have MORE stress because it >COSTS< us money to "help". ....

Sorry, no comparison.  And PLEASE, don't even try to compare the stress of losing money if you decide to volunteer to help to the stress that a short-notice deployment has on a service member.  I saw too many families fall apart because one member was deployed too much.   Or the stress of dual military families where the spouses either both get deployed at once or take turns being deployed.  No comparison so don't go there.

And BTW - Iowa and several other states already have job protection under emergency circumstances for CAP people

Super idea and something we need to work on for other states to adopt as well.

As a former Red Cross volunteer, we in the CAP get a lot more benefits, plus get to wear neat uniforms with military style rank and earn ribbons that are also sold as medals (WOW, just earned a Red Service Ribbon but it is really a Medal!!).  All they get is a Red Cross windbreaker, T-shirt, or polo shirt - which they have to buy.  In the Red Cross, middle of the night call-outs for house fires were routine and you were always training and preparing for the big disaster - with a short-notice deployment.  They also miss out on the rank thing - except these really low payed full time employees could always boss you around.  All they get is the satisfaction of helping others.  All things considered, CAP members really have it good.

Besides, I would be really surprised if your neighbors, co-workers, or patons at the local Wal-Mart can tell you don't have a "Commission" - unless they are RM.  And if you don't do what it takes to earn one in the RM, they still will not believe you have a "Real Commission".

I am an ombudsman with the ESGR, which is an agency under the Secretary of Defense tasked to educate about USERRA and mediate cases arising under it.

It is good for states to have laws that help members of the Armed Forces and even others such as National Guard soldiers under state orders (who are not covered by USERRA under SAD) and others, such as CAP, or SDF, or various volunteer emergency responders who need to leave their civilian job when an emergency occurs.

As of right now, the Civil Air Patrol and the Coast Guard Auxiliary (as well as one of the seven Uniformed Services--the NOAA) are specifically not covered under USERRA. However, USERRA does state that the president may shield ANYONE under USERRA whenever he wants. So if an emergency does occur, and say the Red Cross responds or perhaps various FEMA personnel, they can all be protected at the president's designation.

They just need a policy in place to state who should be covered under what circumstances. If CAP responds to any mission, they should be covered by policy, which the law permits.     

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

Buy it or not, this is the world in which we live....

Oh, right... that world where "Integrity" is supposed to be a core value!

[Eclipse]

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

Buy it or not, this is the world in which we live....

Oh, right... that world where "Integrity" is supposed to be a core value!

I never said it was "right", just that it was.

I'll come to a mission, sign in, and do whatever they need that day - sometimes I am sought after for a specific qualification, sometimes not.  But (as my "handlers" tell me) the "norm.

Most people come for something specific, and if that skill isn't needed, leave. 

I'd be strongly in favor of policies which required a base staff rating and participation >before< you can fly, and I think >all< pilots should be UDF qualified, and maintain at least that currency.

But again, in a volunteer environment, who's underlying mantra is "you're lucky I showed up at all", stuff like that is just not gonna fly.

Its telling, though, that these conversations about grade and authority always veer into "telling someone what to do..." usually in a mission environment.

[JohnKachenmeister]

When you report to an Air Force mission, as a volunteer with the Air Force Auxiliary,  you voluntarily submit to the authority of those appointed over you.

The boss is called the "Incident COMMANDER," not the "Incident Guy Who Suggests What Jobs You Might Want To Do."

If you can't do that, join the Salvation Army.  Its easier to make Major there, anyway.

[ddelaney103]

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

Buy it or not, this is the world in which we live....

Oh, right... that world where "Integrity" is supposed to be a core value!

What's so hard to understand about someone who feels up to sitting in a cockpit for 4 hours but not up for walking a few miles in the woods?  I certainly don't want to be part of the team that has to drag him back out on a litter.

We tell our members how important safety is and self selecting for risk management, then you come on all "Smiling Kach" and waving your 2b's like J. Jonah Jameson on meth.

[RiverAux]

If someone comes to the mission base to fly and we're without pilots and have something useful that they can do around base, they should probably do it and most of the time they will.  If there isn't something for them to do, why should they stick around? Now, if they don't want to do it, there is nothing that requires them to do it and they certainly have the right to refuse to do it.  However, they will certainly get a reputation of not being a team player and they will probably get called fewer and fewer times.  These situations tend to work themselves out over time and aren't a big deal. 

[SAR-EMT1]

Can we get this back on track?
Would anyone, other then Flying Pig like to comment on my last post?

[RiverAux]

okay...

The idea is two fold: 
1with a piece of paper commissioning or warranting us as officers in the USAF Aux we CAP  would easily fall under the Guard and Reserve Act giving folks from every state universal job protection

Under what theory do you think this is correct?  How does this make us a member of the Armed Forces?  Like it or not, our id cards with our ranks on them have just as much actual meaning as a little piece of paper that the AF might send out.  It wouldn't change who we are or the federal laws that apply to CAP. 

[jimmydeanno]

The Governor of Nebraska gave me a commission in the Nebraskan Navy...

[MIKE]

^ We don't need to start that again.

[star1151]

Can we get this back on track?
Would anyone, other then Flying Pig like to comment on my last post?

THIS last post?

This si a piece of paper saying Lt Jon Doe is an Officer in the USAF Auxilliary, and status as such just might get us job protection.

I'm not into doing much for recognition, but job protection would be nice.  My boss has a hard enough time with not being able to call me on Wednesday nights from 7-9.  You don't want to know his reaction when I told him my cell phone would be off an entire Saturday because I was doing something as frivolous as training in the airplane.  Like it or not, the fear of losing a job does keep a lot of people from volunteering.  It kept me away from CAP for years.  And let's face it, CAP missions aren't something that can be "scheduled".

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

Buy it or not, this is the world in which we live....

Oh, right... that world where "Integrity" is supposed to be a core value!

What's so hard to understand about someone who feels up to sitting in a cockpit for 4 hours but not up for walking a few miles in the woods?  I certainly don't want to be part of the team that has to drag him back out on a litter.

We tell our members how important safety is and self selecting for risk management, then you come on all "Smiling Kach" and waving your 2b's like J. Jonah Jameson on meth.

First of all, I did not specify a ground search team.  I said "Ground assignment."  That would include flight line, admin, commo, wherever I needed someone.

Second of all, if he is not physically able to walk a few miles without collapsing, he has no business on an aircrew.  What is he going to do if they have to land and check a large flight line for an ELT?  Call for a golf cart? 

My point is that hen you report to an Air Force mission as a member of the Air Force Auxiliary, you voluntarily place yourself under the command of officers appointed over you to run the mission.  If he says to me that he only wants the "Glory" or "Fun" assignments, I'll tell him he needs to take his immature prima-donna butt out of the CAP and find another place to play his little-kid games.

[star1151]

Second of all, if he is not physically able to walk a few miles without collapsing, he has no business on an aircrew.  What is he going to do if they have to land and check a large flight line for an ELT?  Call for a golf cart? 

You think every aircrew member is in shape enough to hike around who knows what kind of terrain?  Not trying to start a debate on physical requirements, just saying I can see quite a few reasons where someone could physically be on an aircrew but not a ground team.

[ddelaney103]

The problem we keep nibbling at on multiple threads is: is there a way to get more respect (and hopefully better missions) out of the AF?

The longer I stare at it, the more I think that trying to play "Junior AF" is the wrong way to go.

For example, I've been a military civilian.  I've even deployed, with a uniform and everything.  However, no matter what happened, I was still a little bit outside the system.  That didn't stop me from doing my job, working with, for and over soldiers, but I never pretended I was a soldier.  No grade, no salutes, no misplaced search for recognition as "one of them."

The big question, IMHO, is "would we be better served by an CAP organization structure that dispenses with the military trappings we use that we have stripped of meaning, such as military grade?"

[PA Guy]

The problem we keep nibbling at on multiple threads is: is there a way to get more respect (and hopefully better missions) out of the AF?

The longer I stare at it, the more I think that trying to play "Junior AF" is the wrong way to go.

For example, I've been a military civilian.  I've even deployed, with a uniform and everything.  However, no matter what happened, I was still a little bit outside the system.  That didn't stop me from doing my job, working with, for and over soldiers, but I never pretended I was a soldier.  No grade, no salutes, no misplaced search for recognition as "one of them."

The big question, IMHO, is "would we be better served by an CAP organization structure that dispenses with the military trappings we use that we have stripped of meaning, such as military grade?"

Yes!!! I agree.  We spend an enormous amount of time trying to be "one of the boys" and the reality is we never will be.

[Eclipse]

Yes!!! I agree.  We spend an enormous amount of time trying to be "one of the boys" and the reality is we never will be.

All I want is to be respected for my part of the grand scheme.

The only way to garner that respect is with appearance and performance. 

The key to >that< is underselling and over-delivering - a concept that, sadly, many people don't seem to grasp.

[O-Rex]

Yes!!! I agree.  We spend an enormous amount of time trying to be "one of the boys" and the reality is we never will be.

All I want is to be respected for my part of the grand scheme.

The only way to garner that respect is with appearance and performance. 

The key to >that< is underselling and over-delivering - a concept that, sadly, many people don't seem to grasp.

On an organizational level, yes, we have suffered some self-inflicted wounds.  Hopefully, the recent emphasis on responsible leadership will address some of that.

On a personal level, how you present yourself has alot to do with how folks treat you: quiet dignity and professional demeanor goes a long way, not to mention knowing what you are talking about.

I think some folks try too hard when they are around military folks: reminds me of the little side-kick dog looking for validation from the Bulldog in the Bugs Bunny Cartoons: "We's pals, right Spike, huh? huh?" 

If folks have an inferiority complex, or don't feel they belong, others, military or otherwise, will smell it a mile away.

I don't have to "fit in" because I'm not in the Air Force: I'm a CAP member, which I would like to think fills a niche in the grand scheme of things, or we would have been disbanded long ago.  I like being a CAP member and will do my best in that capacity, which includes understanding both CAP and USAF missions and functions.  If others don't like it, that's their problem.

[Dragoon]

I would agree. 

We can't forget that the "military" aspect of CAP is a recruiting and retention aid for some, and just throwing it out would cause some serious ripples through the membership.

That said, if we didn't wear USAF grade, I wonder if we could get permission to get all our guys, even the bearded and fat ones, into USAF uniforms.  I know, for example, that when Army civilians deploy, they put 'em in BDUs/ACUS regardless of their weight, hair length or beards.  Nobody raises and eyebrow, because the insignia on that Army uniform make it clear that this person is an Army CIVILIAN, not a SOLDIER.

I wonder if CAP could work the same way.  If we accepted our role as volunter USAF civilians, rather than semi-air force officers, could we maybe get closer to Big Blue? 

And since our grade structure doesn't really affect the way CAP operates anyway, would going to some sort of non-USAF indicators of training and experience (like flight officer grade, for example) really kill us?

[SarDragon]

Back when I started participating again in '99, we could wear regular BDUs and green flight suits without rank insignia. That went away a couple of years later when they told us we had to wear blue stuff.