Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Luis R. Ramos]

The OP will reach far and high in CAP with this attitude, right? Now comment how do 



you feel?

Flyer

[SarDragon]

Lighten up, Francis!

[Formerly directed at a now removed post. Nothing to see here. Move along.]

[ol'fido]

Ive gone into an LZ before on NVGs and all of the SAR volunteers from the neighboring county thought they were doing me a huge favor by circling their vehicles and facing their headlights inwards with their highbeams on.   After I couldn't get anyone to answer up on the radio I just flipped up my goggles and went in unaided.   Even then..... there was a dude marshaling. 

Biggest thing with helicopters is just let the pilot know where you want them to land.  They will do the rest.  About the only thing a pilot would need would be a wave off in case there was some unforeseen situation the pilot isn't able to see.   It doesn't hurt at all to marshal.   Just don't get upset if the pilot does something else.

The turbine helicopters I fly operationally all have 2-3 minute cool down periods (MD500, OH58, UH1H).  Ive had people as soon as my skids touch the ground are already giving me the "cut" sign for the engine.  One guy at a static display got really agitated that I wasn't shutting down to the point where he walked up to the helicopter and yelled "Shut it Down!"  Afterwards I explained to him what was going on and he had no idea. Bottom line, unless Im on fire and its obvious the pilot doesn't know......  let the crew fly their machine.

So far I think this discussion has offered far more benefit that debating the attitudes of kids after an activity.

Do you just want us to put out an inverted "Y" and let you figure it out for yourself?

[NIN]

Do you just want us to put out an inverted "Y" and let you figure it out for yourself?

That's always been my preference.

[Flying Pig]

Parking lights would work.  High beams and NVGs are not very compatible.  Finding out of the crew has NVGs would be a good start also.  Generally, if they are flying in the mountains at night.... they'll have them.

[Blackhawk]

 :clap:

[PHall]

The "ideal" would be a LZ defined with IR Cyclume sticks. Made just for NVG's.

[SarDragon]

<cues the Jeopardy music>

[Flying Pig]

The "ideal" would be a LZ defined with IR Cyclume sticks. Made just for NVG's.

Id agree with that... "NVGs for $500 please"

[JC004]

Perhaps this topic was doomed from the start, but I'll give it a chance to avoid the lock button.

Perhaps discuss how the attitudes and perceptions have changed over the years at the programs that are set up to be "elite" (including the programs of this type that are now closed, or have re-opened). 

Or discuss what would make them better programs and better integrated into CAP - what role they could play.

[Flying Pig]

I think the idea WAS to derail the thread.... not salvage it. 

[JC004]

Maybe better off talking about kittens or something in theory, but still against the rules.  This particular topic probably doesn't need any help at all getting derailed.  Just sayin.

[Garibaldi]

Perhaps this topic was doomed from the start, but I'll give it a chance to avoid the lock button.

Perhaps discuss how the attitudes and perceptions have changed over the years at the programs that are set up to be "elite" (including the programs of this type that are now closed, or have re-opened). 

Or discuss what would make them better programs and better integrated into CAP - what role they could play.

I'll take "attitudes and perceptions" for $500.

Back in the day, the early to mid 80's to be exact, members of our unit decried the PA Ranger program. We even had a song about them that wasn't too nice. We thought we were the bee's knees, humping the Georgia mountains during summer with our field gear and PRC-77s, and in the winter on our annual FTX to the Alabama wilds, complete with parachute tents and midnight navigation courses. We thought we were the elite, and we were. In Georgia.

Nowadays, I feel that attitude belongs in the past. The schools we send our cadets and seniors to in order to further their skills are pretty good. I've heard nothing but good things about PAWG Rangers, LESA, WESS, and the like. I like to think I have a lot of knowledge to pass on at the local level, but that's local. I've never been to a school outside of my wing, so my knowledge of what goes on there is very limited to "Gee, Major, I had a swell time at _______! I can't wait to go again! Golly gee!" I like to think that the five or so members we are sending to WESS over the next few weekends will come back with something to teach ME. Makes my job easier.

[a2capt]

I contend that it's not the training, the knowledge, that's the issue.

It's the attitude that's seemingly ingrained.

If all they took away from the event was knowledge and friends..

At one time CAP may very well have had 1st responder ground teams that performed medical services as needed. That is no longer the CAP that we are part of, and having this being the first line in a Creed without informing them that is Creed is historical, not current ..

I mean, they may very well do that. But it seems to be about as effective as the typical real estate agent informing buyers that there is an airport nearby.

[flyboy53]

You know, the issue is that some cadets take the NBB/Ranger thing to the extreme when they come back to their home units. There's nothing wrong with the experience or the beret, it's more that some cadets come back to their units with this "the elites" vs. "the clowns" attitude and we end up with problems in the ranks because some of these individuals forget that they can be constructive as mentors.

I think cadets coming back from that type of training need to be debriefed and then made to sit through a class on harassment and elitism. I also strongly believe that the berets need to stay at the activity as a duty uniform an not worn again once they return to the unit. After all, they're already wearing any number of different badges and have ribbons or patches for their various uniforms. The beret/special uniform only compounds the elitism.

[68w20]

I think cadets coming back from that type of training need to be debriefed and then made to sit through a class on harassment and elitism.

We do this.  Extensively. 

NBB '06, '08, '12, '13

[SAREXinNY]

I would agree with flyboy about the debriefing aspect.  68w, I have never seen or heard of this type of debriefing...but I'm glad it is happening.  I think, overall, we could do a better job showing some cadets how to lead properly.  I think some of that happens because some SM's don't know how to lead properly.  I've seen some squadrons where elitism and cockiness is rampant, but it's not a result of attending any of these special activities.  A good leader is not the person who yells the loudest, or corrects the most number of mistakes.  It is the person who can mentor, teach, train, and help the new guys while still maintaining a positive attitude and keeping them interested in the program.  Personally, I don't have a problem with all of the bells and whistles that cadets (or SM's for that matter) earn at these activities.  I'm much more concerned with how they conduct themselves at meetings and in the field.

[abdsp51]

I'm much more concerned with how they conduct themselves at meetings and in the field.

Ditto.  But leadership needs to keep an eye out for these things and nip it before it becomes a problem.

[PHall]

I think cadets coming back from that type of training need to be debriefed and then made to sit through a class on harassment and elitism.

We do this.  Extensively. 

NBB '06, '08, '12, '13

Then you may need to review your course content then. Because it doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

[68w20]

68w, I have never seen or heard of this type of debriefing...but I'm glad it is happening. 

It's been discussed ad nauseum in the dozens of other threads on this topic.  We (the Senior and Cadet staff of NBB) make it a point to discuss elitism, decorum related to wearing the hat, how not to carry yourself as a graduate of NBB and while wearing the hat, etc, etc.  We work incredibly hard to produce good Cadets that understand how things work at Airventure, and how to take those lessons home to compliment activities at their local unit.  Please notice that I made it a point to say compliment, not change.  The way we do things at Airventure works exceptionally well at Airventure, but I don't hunt ELTs the same way in my locale as I do when I'm driving a golf cart around Wittman.  I explained this numerous times to my own Cadets, and I know that the other TAC Officers stressed the same to their Cadets. 

The point has been raised (by usafaux2004 to be precise) that the problem lies not in the types of Cadets that bling produces, but in the types of Cadets that bling attracts.  We get many Cadets at NBB each year that are only there to get a hat.  Most learn very quickly that we have a job to do and that their fixation on a piece of headgear just won't cut it.  Some don't learn that lesson quickly, or at all.  As a staff, we work diligently to ensure that those Cadets are effectively counselled and mentored in order to limit the attitudes which have stereotypically been attributed to NBB.  I personally feel that every Cadet can be mentored in this way, however I will acknowledge that in some cases we simply don't have sufficient contact time to correct pre-existing issues. 

This brings me to my final point.  What we need, as an organization, is for Unit Commanders to do their jobs.  Please understand that this is not intended to be antagonistic to the hundreds of individuals that work tirelessly to effectively command their units, although I will acknowledge that it could be taken that way.  The Commander Approval for NCSA participation exists for a reason.  CCs need to take time to very seriously consider whether or not their Cadets are ready for and capable of NCSA participation.  If they don't meet those criteria, then they need to be counselled and trained until they are.  By exercising better quality control of the Cadets going into these activities, activity staff can do a better job of training effective graduates of the same.