Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[FW]

^ Then why multiply the attitude by continuing to allow "devices of office" to be worn outside the activities?

There's nothing "special" about the activities, nor the training (at least in a CAP context), yet this is allowed to persist, which,
frankly, is the core of the problem - members who feel "special" because they went to an NCSA while never having actually "done something, while other members with an actual track record have to deal with the "special".

That's the problem.

Heck, I can make this a uniform thread...
BDU's and BBDU's are filled with patches of activities past and present.  I was thinking; maybe as a fundraiser... charge fees to allow a member to wear a patch, any patch.  I wonder how that will turn out? 

[Eclipse]

^ Then why multiply the attitude by continuing to allow "devices of office" to be worn outside the activities?

There's nothing "special" about the activities, nor the training (at least in a CAP context), yet this is allowed to persist, which,
frankly, is the core of the problem - members who feel "special" because they went to an NCSA while never having actually "done something, while other members with an actual track record have to deal with the "special".

That's the problem.

Heck, I can make this a uniform thread...
BDU's and BBDU's are filled with patches of activities past and present.  I was thinking; maybe as a fundraiser... charge fees to allow a member to wear a patch, any patch.  I wonder how that will turn out? 

It started as a uniform thread, and participants at these activities already get a patch just like everyone else, and a decoration.

Apparently that isn't "special" enough.

We already charge members an annual fee to wear their patches.  The license is in small print on the back of the ID card.

[Flying Pig]

What if CAP got helicopters?  Then Rangers could rappel from CAP R22s and then they could be Air Assault Rangers.  They could get another badge and aspiring helicopter pilots could build time! 

Discuss?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Then NHQ would have to issue a new set of ES specialties.

Helicopter Mission Pilot.

Helicopter Transport Pilot.

Would a Flight Marshaller now be able to marshal a helicopter? I do not know, I never finished training for that specialty. Can someone else comment?

Mission Observer and Mission Scanner would have to be treated similarly.

NHQ would not need to stop using Aircraft Ground Handling, just rename it to Airplane Ground Handling and issue a new one, Helicopter Ground Handling.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Would a Flight Marshaller now be able to marshal a helicopter? I do not know, I never finished training for that specialty. Can someone else comment?

GTMs can.

Salad Shooter Retro Commercial 1994

[Flying Pig]

Helicopter pilots done really care what the ground marshaler says anyway.   I like sitting in a 3' hover while I watch the ground guy flap his arms up and down like hes trying to fly.

[vento]

Helicopter pilots done really care what the ground marshaler says anyway.   I like sitting in a 3' hover while I watch the ground guy flap his arms up and down like hes trying to fly.

Time to clean my keyboard again for spilling coffee all over it.

[NIN]

Helicopter pilots done really care what the ground marshaler says anyway.   I like sitting in a 3' hover while I watch the ground guy flap his arms up and down like hes trying to fly.

Time to clean my keyboard again for spilling coffee all over it.

Flying Pig speaks the truth!

On a Chinook, once the FE/CE has the load in sight from the cargo hole, the pilots are listening to him on the ICS and not paying any attention to the marshaller.

We were hooking some shotgun HUMVEEs or something once, and I'm working the hook to the hookup guys atop the load when the pilot comes on the intercom and says "Chief, you gotta see the guy out here waving his arms around. Is everything cool back there?"

Me: "Yessir, I need forward 10 and down 5.."

Pilot: "Thats funny, cuz he's telling me I need to back up.. or maybe its go up.. Hell, I don't think he knows what he wants!"

Me: "Forward 5 and down 2, sir. We're just over the load now.  Forward 3..2..1... hold your forward. Hold your forward..."

Co-Pilot: "Guy's telling us to go up now, for sure, chief."

Me: "The hook is still 3 ft over the guy's head, sir. Down 3, drifting slightly forward.  Hold your forward, down three."

Co-pilot: "Now he's waving his hands around... "

Me: "Load being hooked.. load is hooked, hookup man is clear."

Co-Pilot: "He's dancing like he's got ants in his pants, chief."

Me: "You're clear to come up 15, sir.  Slings coming tight..slings tight, load's coming light... Load's off 1..2...3...4...5..."

In our debriefing later that day, I told the SF E-6 who was marshaling us "A) Don't stand on a 15 ft high berm 45 ft in front of a Chinook unless you want the worst haircut ever; and B) Once we're over the load, we don't care about you anymore. Seriously. Just stop."

[Flying Pig]

Doing it in the Huey is funny because 90% of the time the marshaler cant even look at you because of the rotor wash..... those that remember eye protection you cant tell if they are trying to keep their balance or trying to give you signals!

[FlyTiger77]

Helicopter pilots done really care what the ground marshaler says anyway.

...the pilots are listening to him on the ICS and not paying any attention to the marshaller.

Exactly. I remember going into an LZ (ok, it was a softball field, but still...) in Korea one day in my Huey and the unit sent out a marshaller. I asked my co-pilot, after the crew chief told us we were clear of obstacles, "I wonder if that guy really thinks we are paying any attention to him?"

Even if the marshaller was trained, it was just as easy to land with the crew chief clearing the tail over obstacles and letting us know if we were landing somewhere unsuitable.

[Flying Pig]

Ive gone into an LZ before on NVGs and all of the SAR volunteers from the neighboring county thought they were doing me a huge favor by circling their vehicles and facing their headlights inwards with their highbeams on.   After I couldn't get anyone to answer up on the radio I just flipped up my goggles and went in unaided.   Even then..... there was a dude marshaling. 

Biggest thing with helicopters is just let the pilot know where you want them to land.  They will do the rest.  About the only thing a pilot would need would be a wave off in case there was some unforeseen situation the pilot isn't able to see.   It doesn't hurt at all to marshal.   Just don't get upset if the pilot does something else.

The turbine helicopters I fly operationally all have 2-3 minute cool down periods (MD500, OH58, UH1H).  Ive had people as soon as my skids touch the ground are already giving me the "cut" sign for the engine.  One guy at a static display got really agitated that I wasn't shutting down to the point where he walked up to the helicopter and yelled "Shut it Down!"  Afterwards I explained to him what was going on and he had no idea. Bottom line, unless Im on fire and its obvious the pilot doesn't know......  let the crew fly their machine.

So far I think this discussion has offered far more benefit that debating the attitudes of kids after an activity.

[lordmonar]

^ Then why multiply the attitude by continuing to allow "devices of office" to be worn outside the activities?

There's nothing "special" about the activities, nor the training (at least in a CAP context), yet this is allowed to persist, which,
frankly, is the core of the problem - members who feel "special" because they went to an NCSA while never having actually "done something, while other members with an actual track record have to deal with the "special".

That's the problem.

Heck, I can make this a uniform thread...
BDU's and BBDU's are filled with patches of activities past and present.  I was thinking; maybe as a fundraiser... charge fees to allow a member to wear a patch, any patch.  I wonder how that will turn out? 

It started as a uniform thread, and participants at these activities already get a patch just like everyone else, and a decoration.

Apparently that isn't "special" enough.

We already charge members an annual fee to wear their patches.  The license is in small print on the back of the ID card.

No it did not........

[lordmonar]

Would a Flight Marshaller now be able to marshal a helicopter? I do not know, I never finished training for that specialty. Can someone else comment?

Yes we can now......helo ops are part of what I teach when I teach flight line marshaling.

[NIN]

Even if the marshaller was trained, it was just as easy to land with the crew chief clearing the tail over obstacles and letting us know if we were landing somewhere unsuitable.

"Clear of the final barriers, clear down right and rear..."

[Eclipse]

^ Then why multiply the attitude by continuing to allow "devices of office" to be worn outside the activities?

There's nothing "special" about the activities, nor the training (at least in a CAP context), yet this is allowed to persist, which,
frankly, is the core of the problem - members who feel "special" because they went to an NCSA while never having actually "done something, while other members with an actual track record have to deal with the "special".

That's the problem.

Heck, I can make this a uniform thread...
BDU's and BBDU's are filled with patches of activities past and present.  I was thinking; maybe as a fundraiser... charge fees to allow a member to wear a patch, any patch.  I wonder how that will turn out? 

It started as a uniform thread, and participants at these activities already get a patch just like everyone else, and a decoration.

Apparently that isn't "special" enough.

We already charge members an annual fee to wear their patches.  The license is in small print on the back of the ID card.

No it did not........

A uniform item was in the subject line, and for the most part the only real angst about these activities stems directly from the
unwarranted elitism engendered in the participants by the uniform items these activities confer.

Absent those, both are simply NCSAs, no more, no less, and we would not have 1/2 the issues we do in this regard.

[lordmonar]

Do you see the hypocrisy?

Okay....we get it....you hate the beret and the ranger bling.

But Headhunter asked a legitimate question....and specifically said let's not start bashing.....he was trying to find out how wide spread the "problem" is.

Instead of getting an answer he got attacked......and here we are.

[Eclipse]

Do you see the hypocrisy?

No.

Okay....we get it....you hate the beret and the ranger bling.

Again, incorrect.  I don't care one way or the other what they do at those activities.  See the above and 1 million lines of
comments by others for the actual issue.

But Headhunter asked a legitimate question....and specifically said let's not start bashing.....he was trying to find out how wide spread the "problem" is.

First off, why?  Another non-member who's "curious".  No skin in the game, no way to understand the paradigm, and
no reason to care either way.

How do you answer a question about "why don't you like 'x' " without telling "why you don't like 'x' "

There is literally no answer that hasn't been typed 100 times, so anyone "curious" can simply use the search function and not reengaging.
"But why is important?"  If you don't want to "rehash", just don't respond.
Because the nature of the net is that people only read the first two sentences of the first paragraph of a Google search, so when you "rehash",
that floats to the top.  Leave a 1/2-baked idea or incomplete answer, and the next thing yo know you're hearing it parroted at unit meetings.  BTDT.

Lastly, I didn't see anyone "bashing", myself included - I asked "a legitimate question" about hit "legitimate question" and responded in the exact way
I would if asked in person.

[Flying Pig]

Can we get back to more relevant topics?

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[NCRblues]

Do you see the hypocrisy?

But Headhunter asked a legitimate question....

Instead of getting an answer he got attacked......and here we are.

Ok I shall bite a little. I have no knowledge of hawk so I can't truly comment one way or another.

But on NBB it's a different story.

It has taken me a long time to come to this conclusion, and yes I shall admit I was a little blinded by my attendance to NBB.

NBB in the past has had issues. With attitude of cadets returning home, over emphasis on the hat, lack of consistent return (IE quals not loaded into the system ext) and a couple other items.

Someone pointed out that the beret creed was odd at best in the wording and it has just piled on from that point. Some of the criticism is legitimate and others are sort of far out there.

But, with NHQ having an application process for activity director this year these items can be addressed depending on the selection made by NHQ. I know a couple of the "old timers" who put in an application and I know a couple "new age thinkers" that also did.

Some of the things like the creed, training and ops quals issues can be fixed rather easy. Others (like some of the entitlement attitudes seen in some cadets and seniors) needs a little push to move along to the 21st century.

Is NBB perfect? No, no way. Is anything in CAP perfect? Nope. Can it be improved upon? Absolutely! Will it? We shall see. 

[Blackhawk]

New member, thank you.