Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Elioron]

Because this thread hasn't derailed enough...

GIVE US ABUs!!!!!!!

Because, you know, there's nothing safer and more visible when going into the field than camouflage, and "looking cool" is the most important SAR accessory!

[lordmonar]

Because this thread hasn't derailed enough...

GIVE US ABUs!!!!!!!

Because, you know, there's nothing safer and more visible when going into the field than camouflage, and "looking cool" is the most important SAR accessory!

We don't wear ABU's because of the functionality during SAR.  We want ABUs because we want to be part of the USAF.

Plain enough for you?

[Private Investigator]

MP brassard?

We seniors sometimes encourage this attitude...

Tell me you have never been at least once to an Encampment, Bivouac, or other activity in which cadets have worn a brassard with an obvious military connection... "Officer of the Day," "OD," medical brassard with subdued colors on one side non-subdued on the other...

But MP? It takes the cake...

Flyer

Oh I can see somebody taking the whole enchilada too. 

[Private Investigator]

Because this thread hasn't derailed enough...

GIVE US ABUs!!!!!!!

Because, you know, there's nothing safer and more visible when going into the field than camouflage, and "looking cool" is the most important SAR accessory!

We don't wear ABU's because of the functionality during SAR.  We want ABUs because we want to be part of the USAF.

Plain enough for you?

Exactly   

[sardak]

Regarding CPR and first aid for ground team personnel:

1983 CAPM 50-15
Ground Operations Officers and GTLs had to "possess a current advanced first aid card or equivalent." No mention of CPR anywhere in the manual.
GTMs had to "possess a current standard first aid card."
Ratings were Ground Ops Officer, GTL and GTM.

1992 CAPR 50-15
GTL(T) and GTM(T) had to "possess a current Red Cross basic first aid card or equivalent." Again no mention of CPR.
Ratings were now Ground Operations Director, Ground Search Coordinator, GTL and GTM. You had to be a senior member at least 21 to be a qualified GOD or GTL, but a GSC could be 18 and a cadet.

1996 CAPR 50-15
GTL(T) and GTM (qualified, note change from 1992) had to "possess a current Red Cross basic first aid card or equivalent." No CPR.
The CAPF 100, used to apply for a 101 or 101T, had a space to check off first training/qualification and CPR was listed, but so were EMT and paramedic. There was no requirement to have CPR.
The ratings were the same, but the senior member requirements were dropped and the age for all but GTM was 18.

In 1999 35-6 was changed to "align CAP ground team badge requirements with current emergency services specialty qualifications to allow for easier field recognition and tracking."
Basic badge awarded for being a qualified GTM or graduation from the NGSAR Basic Course or equivalent.
Senior badge awarded for being a qualified GTL or graduation from the NGSAR Advanced Course or equivalent.
Master badge awarded for qualification as a CAP ground branch director (formerly ground operations director).

2001 CAPR 60-3 replaced 50-15
The 101-T cards were now in their own reg, CAPR 60-4, Volume II.
GTL had to "Complete Advanced First Aid Training or equivalent." No CPR.
GTM had to "Complete Basic First Aid Training or equivalent." No CPR.
The CAP Form 100 still had the check boxes for EMT, paramedic and CPR.

As I pointed out back in post #142 of this thread, the split of GTM into three levels was proposed in 2003 and incorporated in the May 2004 release of CAPR 60-3 and the arrival of SQTRs. When that change occurred, all GTMs became GTM3. That's why you get the basic badge as a GTM3.

Note that BITD, the requirement was to "possess a current first aid card." In 2001 the wording was changed to "complete a first aid course." Big difference in wording.

Mike

[Elioron]

Because this thread hasn't derailed enough...

GIVE US ABUs!!!!!!!

Because, you know, there's nothing safer and more visible when going into the field than camouflage, and "looking cool" is the most important SAR accessory!

We don't wear ABU's because of the functionality during SAR.  We want ABUs because we want to be part of the USAF.

Plain enough for you?

Sorry, MSgt.  Trolling fail (on my part).

In truth, I couldn't care less.  I have to get new uniforms every year anyway and I wear the DFU.  Uniforms will change as they change...as long as we don't piss off the Air Force too much.

[sarmed1]

To steer back to the original point:  In a parallel discussion; the Ranger Program used to restrict award of the LL patch to R1's only, basically you either had to complete the training/qualification via repeat Hawk training weekends, or if you had home unit R/Adv or R/Exp available or return for a second year summer course.  Now that patch is awarded to everyone who attends the school regardless of what they complete.   Also the hated orange T-shirts were reserved only for school staff members.... now everyone gets one just for showing up. 

As a BTDT point, this was before there were any CAP GTM skill specific requirements, only topics:  HMRS was one of the only programs that had actual skill specific competency and testing requirements for ground SAR in CAP.    Being an R1 (which was always considered a fully "qualified Ranger", vs R2 was more of a Ranger(T)) meant that you were actually capable in the aspects of Wilderness SAR, communications, navigation, first aid etc etc.... where everyone else in CAP it was open to interpretation. ie your squadron said you were trained, but it was up to you to say how....and honestly it lead I think to mostly pencil whipping or otherwise only teaching to what you personally as an ES training officer, felt was needed or worse only what you knew, leaving in many cases, not even consistency from unit to unit even in the same geographic area
(Admittedly this could be where my bias in favor of the Ranger program comes from.....)

The point being, regardless of your opinion on the Ranger program, just like the award of the GTM badge for minimal training at the GT level, I think that either practice (GTM or Ranger) of "dumbing" down the "badge" earning requirements  encourages more badge hunting rather than skill competency.

mk

[NIN]

I think also you see a little issue with people who graduate these programs the further from the flagpole they get.


Without naming any names, I know of a cadet who frequently wears what he refers to as the "ranger parade uniform," references to which I have not found on the Pennsylvania/HMRS website, published SOPs, etc. I have found the so-called "ranger base uniform" which roughly corresponds with the uniform he wears. According to HMRS [ETA: documentation that I've seen], that uniform is worn only "on the mountain". 

I don't have a beef with that, if they want to wear pink tutus and a garbage bag while running up and down Hawk Mountain, that's fine.

But it does not appear to me that the message of "when and where the wear of the full Hawk Mountain uniform is appropriate" is getting correctly inculcated before these people leave the mountain. They show up to their home unit or wing with the ascot, the pistol belt, the whistle, the orange hat, the orange t-shirt and claim it is an authorized uniform. No, it is not

So then, now that I think of it, maybe the wear of a non 39-1 compliant uniform while they are at Hawk Mountain is actually contributing to the problem. Maybe we should all have a beef with that.

Again, I don't have a problem with the stuff that is in 39 - 1: the LL patch, and the ranger tab.  It's the stuff beyond that, and then the attitude that they are doing things correctly , that causes a problem.

[sardak]

The point being, regardless of your opinion on the Ranger program, just like the award of the GTM badge for minimal training at the GT level, I think that either practice (GTM or Ranger) of "dumbing" down the "badge" earning requirements  encourages more badge hunting rather than skill competency.

Speaking of dumbing down the requirements, I found the 1992 rev of 35-6, which added the procedures and requirements for wear of the ground team badge. These were the requirements until the 1999 change.

Basic Ground Team badge:
1. Minimum of 1 year continuous tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Participate in a minimum of 3 ground team sorties after qualification as a GTM.
3. Possess a current Red Cross basic first aid card or equivalent.
4. Have an Radio Operator Permit (ROP).

Senior Ground Team Badge
1. Minimum of 3 years continuous tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Minimum of one orientation flight to observe the duties of a scanner/observer.
3. Participate in a minimum of of 9 ground team sorties after initial qualification as a GTM.
4. Serve as an assistant GTL or GTL(T) for a minimum of one year.
5. Have a vehicle operators permit as required by CAPR 77-1.
6. Be interview team qualified.
7. Be ELT qualified.
8. Be current in Advanced First Aid/First Responder.
9. Meet all other requirements of the Basic badge.

Master Ground Team Badge
1. Minimum of 5 years tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Participate in a minimum of 15 sorties after initial qualification as a GTM.
3. Must be a qualified Ground Operations Officer.
4. Must be qualified in the Flight Line officer specialties.
5. Meet all other requirement of the Senior Badge.

Mike

[sarmed1]

....But it does not appear to me that the message of "when and where the wear of the full Hawk Mountain uniform is appropriate" is getting correctly inculcated before these people leave the mountain. They show up to their home unit or wing with the ascot, the pistol belt, the whistle, the orange hat, the orange t-shirt and claim it is an authorized uniform. No, it is not
...
Again, I don't have a problem with the stuff that is in 39 - 1: the LL patch, and the ranger tab.  It's the stuff beyond that, and then the attitude that they are doing things correctly , that causes a problem.

A contributor to that problem was the way things went into the 39-1.  The first reference was the un-defining NB reference: (paraphrased) "....authorized to wear all awarded items..." It is my guess some people have never moved on from that. (because we know that everyone in CAP stays on top of reading ALL the regulations and monitors the web daily for any changes.....especially cadets)

However, still not an excuse: I would encourage the polite use of CAPR 39-1, its ICL and the PAWG supp, as reading material to re-orient him in the right direction:

1 has what's allowed everywhere (Tabs and LL patches); 1 has whats allowed just in PA (orange hats and orange T-shirts); and 1 has a reference as to what may be allowed if the Wing/Region Kings says so (ie scarves and pistol belts and LL patch placement)  See if he can figure out which lane he falls into.  (And in none of them have I found any allowance for white laces or whistle chains) 

As mentioned in other threads of the past, there was at one time a Ranger Supplement that detailed the difference between Ranger Parade, Ranger Base and Ranger Field.  According to FW, it was never actually signed off by the PAWG CC, and either way it was published in like 1991, and everything else in CAP has changed including the reg it supposedly referenced (I think it was when ES was a 50's series)

mk

[sarmed1]

The point being, regardless of your opinion on the Ranger program, just like the award of the GTM badge for minimal training at the GT level, I think that either practice (GTM or Ranger) of "dumbing" down the "badge" earning requirements  encourages more badge hunting rather than skill competency.

Speaking of dumbing down the requirements, I found the 1992 rev of 35-6, which added the procedures and requirements for wear of the ground team badge. These were the requirements until the 1999 change.

Basic Ground Team badge:
1. Minimum of 1 year continuous tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Participate in a minimum of 3 ground team sorties after qualification as a GTM.
3. Possess a current Red Cross basic first aid card or equivalent.
4. Have an Radio Operator Permit (ROP).

Senior Ground Team Badge
1. Minimum of 3 years continuous tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Minimum of one orientation flight to observe the duties of a scanner/observer.
3. Participate in a minimum of of 9 ground team sorties after initial qualification as a GTM.
4. Serve as an assistant GTL or GTL(T) for a minimum of one year.
5. Have a vehicle operators permit as required by CAPR 77-1.
6. Be interview team qualified.
7. Be ELT qualified.
8. Be current in Advanced First Aid/First Responder.
9. Meet all other requirements of the Basic badge.

Master Ground Team Badge
1. Minimum of 5 years tenure after qualification as a GTM.
2. Participate in a minimum of 15 sorties after initial qualification as a GTM.
3. Must be a qualified Ground Operations Officer.
4. Must be qualified in the Flight Line officer specialties.
5. Meet all other requirement of the Senior Badge.

Mike

That was the reference I was looking for..... It actually made the badge(s) something you had to work hard to earn beyond the "minimum" qualification.  I am proud to say the "old way" is how my Basic and Senior badges were earned....

mk

[NIN]

However, still not an excuse: I would encourage the polite use of CAPR 39-1, its ICL and the PAWG supp, as reading material to re-orient him in the right direction:

1 has what's allowed everywhere (Tabs and LL patches); 1 has whats allowed just in PA (orange hats and orange T-shirts); and 1 has a reference as to what may be allowed if the Wing/Region Kings says so (ie scarves and pistol belts and LL patch placement)  See if he can figure out which lane he falls into.  (And in none of them have I found any allowance for white laces or whistle chains) 

As mentioned in other threads of the past, there was at one time a Ranger Supplement that detailed the difference between Ranger Parade, Ranger Base and Ranger Field.  According to FW, it was never actually signed off by the PAWG CC, and either way it was published in like 1991, and everything else in CAP has changed including the reg it supposedly referenced (I think it was when ES was a 50's series)

Indeed.

There is no published NER Supplement.  PA Wing doesn't apply to my wing.

And my wing hasn't published a supplement, either, that addresses PA Wing/HMRS specific stuff in any event, so its a moot point.

"Its not authorized" should be sufficient.

[Alaric]

I
But it does not appear to me that the message of "when and where the wear of the full Hawk Mountain uniform is appropriate" is getting correctly inculcated before these people leave the mountain. They show up to their home unit or wing with the ascot, the pistol belt, the whistle, the orange hat, the orange t-shirt and claim it is an authorized uniform. No, it is not

So then, now that I think of it, maybe the wear of a non 39-1 compliant uniform while they are at Hawk Mountain is actually contributing to the problem. Maybe we should all have a beef with that.

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

[NIN]

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

No offense to NESA, but khaki shorts and a black t-shirt has NONE of the street cred, er, I mean, bling-bling factor, or, uh, hmmm, how about cachet of a beret, or a whistle, or an ascot, or a white pistol belt or ....

[sarmed1]

.... but imagine the coolness factor of adding all of that to a shorts and t-shirt combo....... sheer awesomeness!!!!!!

mk

[NIN]

.... but imagine the coolness factor of adding all of that to a shorts and t-shirt combo....... sheer awesomeness!!!!!!

Awwww... See , this is why we can have nice things

[Alaric]

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

No offense to NESA, but khaki shorts and a black t-shirt has NONE of the street cred, er, I mean, bling-bling factor, or, uh, hmmm, how about cachet of a beret, or a whistle, or an ascot, or a white pistol belt or ....

But it darn comfy in a cockpit in summer

[PHall]

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

No offense to NESA, but khaki shorts and a black t-shirt has NONE of the street cred, er, I mean, bling-bling factor, or, uh, hmmm, how about cachet of a beret, or a whistle, or an ascot, or a white pistol belt or ....

But it darn comfy in a cockpit in summer

Yeah, if you're in a glider where it is authorized for wear.

[SJFedor]

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

No offense to NESA, but khaki shorts and a black t-shirt has NONE of the street cred, er, I mean, bling-bling factor, or, uh, hmmm, how about cachet of a beret, or a whistle, or an ascot, or a white pistol belt or ....

But it darn comfy in a cockpit in summer

Yeah, if you're in a glider where it is authorized for wear.

NESA obtains a waiver from NHQ for wear of the t-shirt/shorts combo at the school every year. And it's for wear at the school only. Transit to/from in corporate aircraft = normal uniforms apply.

[PHall]

I don't think wearing the non compliant uniform at the event is the issue, I've been to NESA Mission Aircrew School for the last 4 years and I have never felt that a black T-shirt and Khaki shorts were appropriate wear outside of NESA

No offense to NESA, but khaki shorts and a black t-shirt has NONE of the street cred, er, I mean, bling-bling factor, or, uh, hmmm, how about cachet of a beret, or a whistle, or an ascot, or a white pistol belt or ....

But it darn comfy in a cockpit in summer

Yeah, if you're in a glider where it is authorized for wear.

NESA obtains a waiver from NHQ for wear of the t-shirt/shorts combo at the school every year. And it's for wear at the school only. Transit to/from in corporate aircraft = normal uniforms apply.

Glider Pilots can wear the CAP shirt/shorts/tennis shoes combo year 'round.

Of course the "greenhouse effect" in a glider may have something to do with that! [insert sweaty smiley here]