Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As you all know by now I am a former RAF/ATC member, I was an NCO in the ATC as a cadet before enlisting in the RAF where I became an NCO before my 12 year career ended. I then went back to the ATC where I started as a Warrant Officer the only NCO rank at the time, Sergeant and Flight sergeant have since been added.

Keep in mind that in British Commonwealth forces, there are a lot less Sergeant ranks than in the USAF.

There are Sergeants and Flight Sergeants - that's it.

Also, Warrant Officers are not like ours...they're considered NCO's but really they're on a special tier.  You do not salute them, but you do address them as "sir" or "ma'am" and you listen to them or else you will find yourself on the end of a very thorough bum-chewing.  Young Pilot Officers (O-1's) learn very quickly not to pull rank on "the Warrant" (just because you can, doesn't mean you should).

They are also often in charge of discipline in a particular unit...which they are very good at.

How does this relate to CAP?

If we were to bring such equivalent ranks into CAP (which isn't happening), they would not be ranks for adults...they would be cadet ranks.

http://www.cadet-world.com/cwwiki/Ranks_%28Royal_Canadian_Air_Cadets%29

I've met NCO's of all five Armed Forces who are incredibly good at what they do, and some who basically just polish a chair.

In CAP, the few NCO's I've met are really dedicated.  I knew one who was a retired Army Drill SFC who wore AF MSgt stripes in CAP.  He was very good with the cadets, both mentoring and laying down the law when needed.  He didn't get to wear the AF MTI campaign hat, though...I know it's because he was an Army Drill and not an AF MTI, but I thought it would be a good way to recognise his years as a Drill...oh, well.

I certainly don't treat them differently because I'm an "officer" and they wear stripes...they got their stripes in the Real Military and I got my CAP railway tracks mostly by showing up, doing what I'm told, coming up with the occasional good idea (it does happen) and Professional Development.

Quite a vast difference.

[andysum15]

The British Air Cadets (ATC) also have classification badges and badges of rank. Classifications are first class cadet (normally takes 9 to 12 months) Leading Cadet, Senior Cadet and Staff Cadet. One achieving First Class cadet they are eligible for promotion to rank of corporal (in practice this often doesn't take place until they are at least Leading cadet).
So NCO ranks for cadets are : Corporal, Sergeant, Flight Sergeant and Warrant Officer. The number of cadet NCO's in each squadron is governed by the number of cadets, so larger squadrons have more NCO's.
Senior Member NCO ranks start at Sergeant, then after 4 years Flight Sergeant and then Warrant Officer. These adult/ senior member NCO also wear ATC in brass on their rank slide. If in best blues they have ATC cut out on the collar like we have US.

[andysum15]

http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/sqn_organisation_ranks.htm[/url

Here is a link for those who interested in ATC ranks.

[lordmonar]

He didn't get to wear the AF MTI campaign hat, though...I know it's because he was an Army Drill and not an AF MTI, but I thought it would be a good way to recognise his years as a Drill...oh, well.

Even ex USAF MTI's don't get to wear their smokey bear once they leave Lackland.  It has nothing to do with being Army.

[FlyTiger77]

He didn't get to wear the AF MTI campaign hat, though...I know it's because he was an Army Drill and not an AF MTI, but I thought it would be a good way to recognise his years as a Drill...oh, well.

Even ex USAF MTI's don't get to wear their smokey bear once they leave Lackland.  It has nothing to do with being Army.

FWIW, Army drill sergeants don't wear their distinctive headgear unless they are on the trail, either.

Edit: However, they are authorized a badge for wear on their uniform pocket.

[MSgt Van]

AF guys get a TI ribbon.

[jb512]

AF guys get a TI ribbon.

And the cookie.

[MSgt Van]

Unless it's changed, you can't wear the cookie if your not serving in an AETC assignment. My cookie is secured to the inside pocket of my service  blouse - "stealth cookie".

[rmcmanus]

Ah, what is a cookie?

[jimmydeanno]

Cookie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Education_and_Training_Command_Instructor_Badge

[MSgt Van]

My cookie is the top right round badge on my signature image.

[jimmydeanno]

My cookie is the top right round badge on my signature image.

Apparently, your signature image changes.  It wasn't there a minute ago 

[MSgt Van]

It's magic (well, ok. so I just added it)   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Having spent a few good years in the Army Infantry myself becoming a CPL, I would have to say that the notion that some people have of the private/ airman doesn't know how to march troops is a load. That is one of the first things that is taught in Basic for both branches. It is the most basic lesson in learning to receive and give orders. I have never seen an NCO in any branch other than Navy that doesn't know how to march soldiers. But I have seen multitudes of officers that don't.

That being said, there could be an advantage to having an NCO Corps in CAP. Yes there is a distinct difference in what leadership means to NCO and Officers. The NCO is the hands on, and the officer is more of the man behind the screen. The officer gives the ORDER to the NCO the NCO gives and SHOWS the OBJECTIVE and how to accomplish the mission.

The NCO could be a good way to teach the Airmen and NCO cadets the ways of the enlisted. While the Officer teaches those who are cadet officers and NCOs who are about to become officers.

Keep in mind, not all CAP cadets who go into the military do so as officers. I Made my Mitchell and went to the Army to enlist.

Keeping all of this in mind, I do not think that implementing an NCO Corps in CAP would be effective as I have stated. For the simple fact that some who join CAP as senior members do not have the knowledge of the difference between officers and NCOs. I could see it muddling things up in certain places.

However One NCO who has been prior military being in your squadron would be a good thing, especially if he/she were to keep their stripes. They would be able to set the standard for actions as an NCO.

[MSgt Van]

As of today I have four NCOs in my squadron, with two more almost there. That's probably the most in CAP I'd bet. I hope we're making a difference (positive, that is).

[sarmed1]

Personally speaking the only place I see the usefulness of the "rank" structure is in the CP role.  As stated above no one care or seems to see a problem with a squadron commanded by a 2Lt with serving LTC's and Maj's.... however when trying to mentor and show a model of CofC, delegation of authority, small unit leadership etc etc having a "mirror" senior leader side to the cadet structure would be beneficial, and in that model an NCO corps would be usefull. (with that in mind that would be the only model you would need to have a military style uniform also, but thats a seperate discussion)... and that way a 2 caste system is ok, because that's what we are teaching the cadets

For that to be effective many unlikely changes would have to take place (and Wing CC who arent in a cadet unit wouldnt be able to be Col and wear fancy AF uniforms to the NB; since they make the decisons I see it as a catch 22 unless someone with a bigger foot lays down the law)

mk

[docbiochem33]

I recently sent a question about the Senior Member NCO grades to the National Commander.  He stated that the program has been at National Headquarters for some time and that they are reviewing the program.

People are reviewing questions and concerns raised and MG Carr is reviewing these. 

I know that MG Carr is a proponent of the NCO grades as he introduced a Command Master Chief in Ohio and at GLR HQ. 

As for those who who think that would be bad to have the grades I think it is wrong.  I know a lot of people that would like to see the grades returned because they were NCO's and enlisted in the service and don't want to be an officer.  Others would like to see NCO grades returned because they do not want to be in a command position.

I would like to see NCO grades returned because it would also mirror the cadet programs.  It would teach them about the importance of the NCO and for those going into the service it would also show them the role of NCO's.

[arajca]

The military enlisted/officer model does not work for the CAP cadet program. There is a fundemental disconnect between them and I'm not talking about age. The cadet program does not "mirror" the miltary paths because the CAP cadet program has one path, not two. In the military, the enlisted and officer paths are separate (with the occasional exception) with end-all-be-all of the enlisted path being CMSgt.

Unlike CAP cadet officers, military officers are not enlisted who continued progression after CMSgt. Officers follow a separate path, starting at officer grades. The CAP cadet program starts with enlisted grade and progresses through C/CMSgt into officer grades.

In my eperience, the argument many CAP NCO's make for wearing stripes is "I dont want to be demoted to an officer."

I will admit I have limited experience with CAP NCOs, since they are statistically insignificant number in our membership and are hard to find. I have interacted with more CAP NCOs on CAPTalk than I have seen in person in probably 18 years as a cadet and senior member. No one, including me, will deny that NCOs bring alot of valuable skills and knowledge to CAP, however, unless CAP does a major restructure of the entire senior member grade structure, NCO stripes are merely ego stroking tools for the few current and former military NCOs who chose to get involved with CAP.

[Eclipse]

As for those who who think that would be bad to have the grades I think it is wrong.  I know a lot of people that would like to see the grades returned because they were NCO's and enlisted in the service and don't want to be an officer.  Others would like to see NCO grades returned because they do not want to be in a command position.

Which is basically the only reason.

[rugger1869]

Morning All,
Having served with the Air Training Corps and Civil Air Patrol I would just like to let members know how the ATC does it. The ATC has both NCO and Officer ranks. An individual can apply for either, allowing them to progress through the NCO track or Officer. An NCO may at a future date apply for appointment as an officer. The NCO ranks consist of Sergeant, Flight Sergeant and Warrant Officer. NCO's will serve for four years as a Sergeant before being eligible for promotion to Flight Sergeant and then another four years to Warrant Officer. Officers are a little different two years at entry level Pilot Officer then promotion to Flying Officer. The next rank Flight Lieutenant is for Squadron Commanders and for officers who have 12 years service as an officer.
NCO ranks perform slightly different rolls, one of their main duties is drill and discipline but also carry out many other duties. The only one they can not do is become Squadron Commander.
I started my career with the ATC as a Warrant Officer (the other two ranks were introduced after I was commissioned and after I moved to the USA). For me it was an excellent way of developing skills I needed. If I had not taken this route I would not of been the officer I became. I went on to become a Squadron Commander in the ATC and am now a Squadron Commander in CAP. It is my experience that some people are best suited to being NCO's and some Officers. Just because some are NCO's does not mean they are lesser qualified. Their roll may be different but they are equally important. I for one would love to see NCO ranks brought in for Senior Members.

I think it's interesting that the ATC officers are actually commissioned in the training branch of the Royal Air Force. Seems like that would create a better collegial atmosphere between the ATC and RAF, not to mention the fact that the RAF has a dedicated group of instructors on standby if they're ever needed.