Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[lordmonar]

No, it is not a CAP grade. It is a membership status. Any use of SM as a grade identifier is only just a matter of convenience. It is used in lieu of grade for those senior members who have not been appointed to a grade.

If it looks like a grade....and talks like a grade.....and confirs the same rights, privileges and authority of a grade.....then.....hold on tight......it is a grade.

[flyboy53]

The point I was trying to make is that SM is a grade.

Again, it is not.  Thats the issue.  Either make SM an actual grade or come up with some other grade to assign new senior members to just like we do with new cadets.

No, it is a grade. It is not a MILITARY grade. But it is a CAP grade.

No, it is not a CAP grade. It is a membership status. Any use of SM as a grade identifier is only just a matter of convenience. It is used in lieu of grade for those senior members who have not been appointed to a grade.

NO, it's a status....and therefore, a rank. Please keep in mind that rank and grade are two different things. Grade means pay grade. If this SM was taking an AFLDI course, the grade would be E-1.

Debating over a new title for these individuals (and I would favor Officer Trainee) creates a compounding issue for CAP because we have so many adult membership categories. Aerospace Education Members are issued cards with "SM" as a rank, so, too, are Cadet Sponsor members. It would be entirely inappropriate to call them officer trainees.

OK, so getting NHQ to change the status on an identification card would probably become an administrative nightmare, so why can't the regs be changed to reflect something like OT for senior members entering the program during that six months that they are trying to get their entry-level requiements out of the way.

Over the years I've collected an assortment of CAP-related books and manuals. I have some older ones that show officer trainee as a status. Why can't we do that now for those in the officer corps.

[RADIOMAN015]

I don't think active, former, or retired senior military NCO's are knocking down the doors to join Civil Air Patrol.

In our unit we have only one retired senior NCO, who has stayed with the unit (actually was an Air Guard Technician) for many years before retiring.  The rest of the military NCO's have gone inactive/did not renew over the years.   I know one told me volunteering at CAP was too much like work (his day work in the military) and he preferred doing something differently with his volunteer time.  (of the 4 active duty military members on the unit roster, none are currently active/participating members in the unit).

I personally don't think it matters that much whether ANY former/military member trains cadets.  Personally I think a professional teacher or counsellor actually is in a better position to provide training to cadets. (and that too can also be problematic because we have some members that are school teachers that don't want to be involved with cadets, because they too need a rest from doing the same thing at night that they do during the day).   

So perhaps with the senior NCO's there may be some success in some units, nationwide results will vary greatly.
RM   

[ZigZag911]

Like it or not, most staff jobs in the squadron are not really leadership positions as they generally do not actually supervise or lead anybody.   

I have to disagree here: all CAP members have a responsibility to lead by personal example, which in my view is the most basic and effective form of leadership!

Not every staff member may supervise others, true...nevertheless, how each staff member behaves, wears the uniform, carries out duties...all of this is going to be observed by other members including, perhaps especially, cadets and have an effect on them and their attitudes in CAP.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that my statement was responding to the assertion that NCOs would be performing a CAP staff job substantially different than a CAP officer. 

I'll stipulate that the squadron historian can lead by example by doing his job well even if they don't have people working underneath them.  But, how is an NCO serving as squadron historian going to lead by example substantially different than a CAP officer doing the exact same job? 

[Short Field]

Grade means pay grade. If this SM was taking an AFLDI course, the grade would be E-1.

Then no one in CAP on the volunteer side has a grade because no one gets paid.

[jb512]

I personally don't think it matters that much whether ANY former/military member trains cadets.  Personally I think a professional teacher or counsellor actually is in a better position to provide training to cadets.

I'd say you're wrong and that all depends on what kind of training you're trying to provide.  There is no substitute for training in the military aspects of the organization than what a military member can provide.  A professional teacher or counsellor can teach or counsel in their area of expertise quite well but most wouldn't know the first thing about military uniforms or drill and ceremonies.

WIWAC I was in a unit that was on a military base overseas and had nothing but military members and their spouses as seniors, and dependents as cadets.  We never had any problems with uniforms, drill, formations, etc.  I remember that our aerospace training came from pilots, first aid from medical folks, and there were even a couple of spouses who were teachers so we had it all covered.

Don't discount the military, they're experts too especially in a branch's auxiliary.

[arajca]

Hyperthetical:
Two retired AF SMSgts join CAP. ( . . .) Who is the better role model for cadets?

Before you start wanting specifics on clarifications and details on each, remember this whole argument is based on the general notion that ALL CAP NCOs are better role models for cadets than ALL CAP officers.

Aha,  I think I see the problem.

No one (especially me) is saying that "ALL CAP NCOs are better role models for cadets than ALL CAP officers."

All we are saying in this context is that - when it comes time to model NCO behaviors and leadership styles for our cadet NCOs - CAP NCOs can be more effective role models than officers.

For the simple reason that the CAP NCOs can directly model successful NCO leadership styles in ways that officers cannot, because the officers are officers and tend to act like officers.

Nothing more sinister than that.  Which is pretty much the definition of "role model", BTW.  "Someone worthy of imitiation."

Restating, since cadets need to learn NCO leadership styles and behaviors before they need to learn officer leadership styles and behaviors, it might be useful to have a high-speed NCO  at the unit to watch and imitate.

Kinda like a role model.

Getting back to your hypothtical the answer is :"Both can be outstanding role models.  One will model officer leadership styles and behaviors, the other can model NCO styles and behaviors."

So the retired NCO who elects to follow the CAP officer system is not a good role model for cadet ncos because of that? WTF, over?

[Short Field]

I really hate to think leadership ability is solely defined by what uniform you wear and where you place your rank.

[Ned]

So the retired NCO who elects to follow the CAP officer system is not a good role model for cadet ncos because of that?

For being an upright person who donates to her/his community and touches the future by mentoring and training cadets, of course the former NCO is a role model worthy of imitation.

But for modeling NCO roles and leadership styles for cadet NCOS, not so much.

If I wanted to improve my baseball skills, I could still learn a lot from Lance Armstrong in terms of how to overcome adversity and lifelong fitness.

But I could learn a lot more specific baseball skills by watching Pablo Sandoval.

[Eclipse]

If I wanted to improve my baseball skills, I could still learn a lot from Lance Armstrong in terms of how to overcome adversity and lifelong fitness.

But I could learn a lot more specific baseball skills by watching Pablo Sandoval.

What unit are those guys in?

[arajca]

So the retired NCO who elects to follow the CAP officer system is not a good role model for cadet ncos because of that?

For being an upright person who donates to her/his community and touches the future by mentoring and training cadets, of course the former NCO is a role model worthy of imitation.

But for modeling NCO roles and leadership styles for cadet NCOS, not so much.

If I wanted to improve my baseball skills, I could still learn a lot from Lance Armstrong in terms of how to overcome adversity and lifelong fitness.

But I could learn a lot more specific baseball skills by watching Pablo Sandoval.

So the stripes on the uniform are more important to serve as a role model for cadet ncos than the fact the the person wearing the uniform is a retired NCO.

[lordmonar]

I think what Ned is saying....is that we are all playing roles.

A former AD NCO who puts on the uniform of an officer when he joins CAP "should" be modeling the leadership traits and habits of an officer.

Also....the cadets who are not sophisticated enough to see the NCO buried under the Capt's bars.....only see "officer".

So the over all effectiveness as an NCO ROLL MODEL are diminished because of the the "officer contamination".

If he kept his stripes and kept his NCO leadership styles and traits he would be MORE EFFECTIVE as a roll model.

So YES what rank you are and where you wear it does affect your effectiveness as a roll model.

[jb512]

...roll model.

So YES what rank you are and where you wear it does affect your effectiveness as a roll model.

I like my roll models with butter and jelly.  Lightly toasted please.

[HGjunkie]

...roll model.

So YES what rank you are and where you wear it does affect your effectiveness as a roll model.

I like my roll models with butter and jelly.  Lightly toasted please.

:clap: :clap:

[Ned]

So the stripes on the uniform are more important to serve as a role model for cadet ncos than the fact the the person wearing the uniform is a retired NCO.

Andrew,

I know you know that is not what I am saying.

As Patrick and others have pointed out - Officers act and lead like officers; and NCOs act and lead like NCOs.  Restated, officers do not act and lead like NCOs, and NCOs do not act and lead like officers.

Former NCOs who are current CAP officers presumably are "officer like" in their demeanor and leadership styles.

The whole point of my involvement in this thread is that there is a real difference between officer and NCO leadership styles, and CAP cadets - unlike any other military cadet program - requires our cadets to progress from cadet NCO to cadet officer. 

I think CAP officers can and do a pretty good job of teaching leadership as it is, and serve as coaches, mentors, and role models for our cadets.  But cadet NCOs would benefit from having senior NCO role models as well to observe NCO leadership styles in action.

This has never been about whether officers or NCOs are "better" or "more admirable."

No one would ever be able to win such an argument.

But I suspect you already knew that.

Ned Lee

[arajca]

The problem is my opinion of CAP NCOs has been colored by my experience with CAP NCOs. As a role model for cadets, NCO or officer, most have been less than satisfactory. There is also the whole "I'm an NCO. I work for a living" attitude I've gotten from most as well. There may be some out there who are good role models as NCOs, but I haven't met them.

[FW]

The problem, IMO, is not about style, form or, function.  The problem is feasibility.  When all said and done, a senior member NCO program will create a whole new membership category which I don't see as workable.  I wrote about creating a perceived "caste" system; one NCO, one Officer.  The potential conflicts, IMO, outweigh the potential benefits.  As civilians, we tend to regard each other with a certain "sameness".  In creating an NCO "caste", we try to "militarize" ourselves.  However, we are not a military organization.  Officers have no authority over NCO's.  NCO's have no obligation to take direction from Officers.  And, as said by many, our grade structure has no relevance with military grade.  Without proper "culture" changes, training and, motivation, the system would collapse upon itself create a void we may not fill.

[MSgt Van]

Everyone's contributions to CAP are based on their background. CAP NCOs have experience that may or may not be beneficial to the unit, depending on how they use that experience, and the attitude of those around them.  If you think I kept my stripes because I'm an arrogant s.o.b. who doesn't want to fit in with the crowd, my presence will have one effect. If you think I kept my stripes for other reasons, you'd no doubt think of me differently.  That being said, CAP Officers, unless they are prior military, do not have any experience as an officer. The CAP experience does not make an officer. It may help develop leadership skills, or make you a better organizer, but you won't pop out the other end of this an officer. This is a civilian volunteer organization where adult members are allowed to wear military-style insignia. Chevrons or bars, your effectiveness in CAP is determined by your personality more than the insignia you're wearing. There's no need for an NCO corp in CAP, because as a previous post explained our grade structure has no relevance to military grade. My squadron currently has a SMSgt, MSgt, and two SSgts. Lucky for us we fit in nicely, and hope we have a positive influence on our squadron based on our actions, not our rank insignia.

[FlyTiger77]

Everyone's contributions to CAP are based on their background. CAP NCOs have experience that may or may not be beneficial to the unit, depending on how they use that experience, and the attitude of those around them.  If you think I kept my stripes because I'm an arrogant s.o.b. who doesn't want to fit in with the crowd, my presence will have one effect. If you think I kept my stripes for other reasons, you'd no doubt think of me differently.  That being said, CAP Officers, unless they are prior military, do not have any experience as an officer. The CAP experience does not make an officer. It may help develop leadership skills, or make you a better organizer, but you won't pop out the other end of this an officer. This is a civilian volunteer organization where adult members are allowed to wear military-style insignia. Chevrons or bars, your effectiveness in CAP is determined by your personality more than the insignia you're wearing. There's no need for an NCO corp in CAP, because as a previous post explained our grade structure has no relevance to military grade. My squadron currently has a SMSgt, MSgt, and two SSgts. Lucky for us we fit in nicely, and hope we have a positive influence on our squadron based on our actions, not our rank insignia.

Well said.