ATP may be required

[PHall]

Every day the FAA or the FED takes the fun out of flying just a little bit more.

I don't fly for airlines or instruct, I just fly to have fun.  However, it is very apparent that the FAA and Govt are reacting too quick to isolated incidents. 

Requiring more time in training/ more testing will actually hurt the industry, not help it.

What?

[RiverAux]

Seems clear to me that the supply of pilots is so great that the airlines can demand that they work for low pay.

Seems to me that if pilots want to be paid more, the supply of pilots needs to be reduced. 

Although CAP isn't out there making significant numbers of pilots, one of our overall jobs is to raise interest in aviation, primarily through our cadet program, and that we are basically part of the "problem".  Since we help get kids fired up about being pilots, we're helping add to the apparent glut. 

I'm not saying that we should stop our AE program in order to help commercial pilots make more money, just saying that we're one of the reasons behind this situation.

How about the government stop any student loan or grant programs that go towards non-military pilot training?  There are plenty of other career fields with people shortages and maybe we should be trying to draw more students into them rather than a field where we apparently have too many?  I really have no idea if there are such opportunities out there in the first place, but if there are, then maybe we should re-think them. 

Market forces are always going to dominate in setting pay scales for this sort of job. 

[Flying Pig]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

I think your misunderstanding. ATP is just the name of the rating.  You dont actually need one to fly for the airline at this point in time.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

There are plenty of flying jobs to build experience that don't require carrying paying passengers. Flight instructing, flying cargo, aerial survey, banner-towing, pipeline patrol, etc--oh, and CAP, too.   As the pilots in the afore-mentioned hearing said, an airline cockpit is where you go AFTER you've proven yourself as a pilot. It's not the place to gain experience.

I used to think the same thing. But I found out that flying a Cessna 172 s nothing like flying a CRJ. Fliyng a cessna 172 isnt going to help learn about the electrical system on a CRJ or the FMS or auto throttles. You dont deal with that stuff being a flight instructor.

What are the take off mins at a 121 operations? Being a flight instructor at a local FBO isnt going to prepare you to understand the FOM at an airline. I wish it did believe me. But it wont.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

[flyguy06]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

[DC]

The quote function is awesome.

You should try it out sometime.

[flyguy06]

Seems clear to me that the supply of pilots is so great that the airlines can demand that they work for low pay.

Seems to me that if pilots want to be paid more, the supply of pilots needs to be reduced. 

Although CAP isn't out there making significant numbers of pilots, one of our overall jobs is to raise interest in aviation, primarily through our cadet program, and that we are basically part of the "problem".  Since we help get kids fired up about being pilots, we're helping add to the apparent glut. 

I'm not saying that we should stop our AE program in order to help commercial pilots make more money, just saying that we're one of the reasons behind this situation.

How about the government stop any student loan or grant programs that go towards non-military pilot training?  There are plenty of other career fields with people shortages and maybe we should be trying to draw more students into them rather than a field where we apparently have too many?  I really have no idea if there are such opportunities out there in the first place, but if there are, then maybe we should re-think them. 

Market forces are always going to dominate in setting pay scales for this sort of job.

If you had a govt programlike that then people like me could never be pilots. I wanted to be a military pilot. But when i was within the age range the requirement to fly in the militart was 20/20. I wore glasses. So military flying wasnt an option for me. I had to go the civilan route.

You are correct about the firs tpart of what you said. These youngs folks have wahst called SJS(shiny jet syndrome) They will do almost anything and accept any pay just to get the opportunity to say they fly jets for a living. So when the airlines were hiring folks with 500 hours total time this flux of oyung people fresh out of flyigh tschool went for it. Now they are reaping it due to all the furloughs  and now they have no where to go.

[DG]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the solution should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

Yes a person that has failed 5 checkrides at that airline should be fired but Ithink the non flying media reported ths stoyr incorrectly andledft the non flying public with a misconception.

Did the Capatin fail 5 checkrides at the company? Or di he fail 5 checkrides thoighour his flight training career. meaning did he fail his fail his private piot checkride thenpass it. then laster on fail an instrument rating checkride then later when he got to his airline fail a prficiency check. The FAA tracks checkrides throughout a persons training not just at the persons company. So I think the media didnt really have a good understanding of what "fialed 5 checkrides" means.

[flyguy06]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

Again as i said these kids want to get inthe coclpit as soon as possibleso when the airlines offered them a job at 500 hours they jumped to  it. An Air Force LT that flies C-130's probably starts off with about 500 hours.  Youhave to have 1500 hours toget an ATP. So unless you are wealthy how do you get that unles you have a flying job.

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the soluiton should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[Thrashed]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

There are plenty of corporate jobs that do not require a type rating.  My first one was a Cheyenne.  There are piston planes too.  I flew C303 & C414's for someone.  None required much time or a type rating.  Corporate doesn't mean G-V, it means flying for any corporation.  There are C402 cargo, sight-seeing, airline jobs too.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

There are plenty of corporate jobs that do not require a type rating.  My first one was a Cheyenne.  There are piston planes too.  I flew C303 & C414's for someone.  None required much time or a type rating.  Corporate doesn't mean G-V, it means flying for any corporation.  There are C402 cargo, sight-seeing, airline jobs too.

Thats very true. My point was you need to know somebody that will give you a good recommnedation or have in the thousands of hours.

[Flying Pig]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

But you have to have a minimum of 1500 hours to get an ATP.  So thats the issue people are talking about.   Building up to 1500 hrs before you can even put in your application.

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the soluiton should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[Thrashed]

Thats very true. My point was you need to know somebody that will give you a good recommnedation or have in the thousands of hours.

I got my first multi job with less than 100 multi and I didn't know the guy.  I went looking for work.  I worked at the FBO's and asked questions and got leads.  The guy called me on the phone because I left a business card on a WX breifing room bulletin board at the FBO.  He offered me the job over the phone. That lead to another job, then another, etc. 

[flyguy06]

thats great. How long ago was that? The world of trying to find a flying job has changed over the last three years

[Mustang]

I used to think the same thing. But I found out that flying a Cessna 172 s nothing like flying a CRJ. Fliyng a cessna 172 isnt going to help learn about the electrical system on a CRJ or the FMS or auto throttles. You dont deal with that stuff being a flight instructor.

What are the take off mins at a 121 operations? Being a flight instructor at a local FBO isnt going to prepare you to understand the FOM at an airline. I wish it did believe me. But it wont.

Great argument for leaving the flight school environment for the Part 135 world and getting some real-world flying experience where the student in the left seat isn't the limiting factor, your judgment and abilities are.

Moreover, that problem is one of initiative, nothing more. Everybody knows somebody who flies RJs. I had copies of all of SkyWest's ground school materials before I even had my instrument ticket -- incidentally, their takeoff mins are RVR 600/600/600.  From there, it's just a matter of self-study.  Learning the ins and outs of the G1000 is a sufficient head-start on how FMSs operate, and I believe only the EMB 170/190 have autothrottles. 

More to the point, IFR is IFR, regardless of whether you're in a 172 or a 777.  Most CFIs just don't get much IFR experience, certainly not in actual IMC, and certainly not as the pilot flying.  Yet another reason why a Part 135 job makes an excellent stepping stone between instructing and Part 121 flying.

The problem is, most CFIs end up buying the hype that instructing is the best way to build time/experience. I've never believed that, personally. I did a year's worth of aerial mapping flying, and the coast-to-coast IFR cross-country experience I accrued in the process was worth its weight in gold.  So don't rely on the flight school environment to prepare you for 121 flying -- it just won't.   Get out there and add some diversity to your experience.

[flyguy06]

^ Totally agree with that. Although in order to get that 135 job, you need 1200 hours. career changers that start at age 35. Do they have time to go work for a pt 135 and then work their way  up to a 121?

But all in all. I do agree that apt 135 is a better stepping stone to the airlines than flight instructing.

btw A crj900 has autothrottles

[MooneyMeyer]

I have 800 tt / 75 multi, and I've never instructed a single student. I got all my flying experience after I got all my certificates by ferrying aircraft for a few a/c dealers and working for contacts I made while being employed as a line crewman at an FBO. In fact I used to fly the FBO owner's A-36 Bonanza pretty regularly. I've flown from Sacramento, CA to Tampa, FL on several occasions. Half of my multi time was spent in the left seat of a Cessna 414. I feel like I've had a ton of great experience in real world flying. A few months ago my wife and I moved to Fort Worth, TX and doing so has basically destroyed my current flying opportunities. I still do the occasional ferrying job but I've come to the realization that flying jobs at my level has much more to do with my own ability to network than my personal piloting skill. I've maintained flying proficiency by regularly flying CAP aircraft and working towards my CFI certificate, which I should have in a week or two. Flying jobs in this economy are really scarce right now. So I figure I'll instruct till they come back, and earn my ATP when I get to 1500. I already have the required 500 cross-country. I think the key is just to stay positive and stay proficient. I hate to say it but if offered a job at the regionals for 18k/yr tomorrow I'd jump all over it. I wouldn't be able to do it but for my wife having a great job and earning a sizable paycheck. I just see that flying one of those shiny type airplanes for a while would fast track my overall career by a few years over what I'm doing now. Even though I feel I've gotten great experience I've yet to log any turbine time, it'll probably be that way too when I get the ATP certificate. In my case, I don't feel that having an ATP certificate would make me better qualified to be an airline pilot. I think a better way to increase safety at the regionals would be to have increased pay for pilots. The real problem with the Q400 / Colgan accident was that both pilots were fatigued because they were attempting to get sleep in crew lounges or crash pads all the time and the first officer had to work part time at a coffee shop to pay the bills. Oh well, until the flying public is willing to pay more for airfare I don't see how this problem get fixed. Even if the first officer of that flight would have had her ATP, I really don't think that would have saved them.

[Thrashed]

thats great. How long ago was that? The world of trying to find a flying job has changed over the last three years

And it will change again in the future.  It's always changing.  I've lost a lot of jobs during recessions too.