The 200 hour per aircraft goal

[Eclipse]

True enough, and in most of this thread, even though we've raised the question about ORM, etc., the pilots with
angst are only being asked these questions and that's still too much. 

[Al Sayre]

The FRO's main job is to make sure the plane landed safely.

Just look at the 99.

CAP FRO CHECKLIST QUESTIONS
1. Are PIC(s) qualified to fly the CAP aircraft for the type of flight proposed (consult the Ops-Qual FRO Report)? Does the PIC(s) possess the appropriate pilot currency for the flight?

2. Are all aircraft occupants CAP members? If not, have applicable procedures been followed for non-CAP members, including CAPF 9 if applicable?

3. Is the correct mission symbol selected?

4. Is the route of flight complete, and does the PIC have permission to fly to destinations outside the wing? Does permission exist for all landings at
every airport IAW CAPR 60-1?

5. Will a flight plan be filed (required for over 50nm)? If not, what is the estimated landing time?  Unless an FAA flight plan is filed and activated,
the FRO is responsible for initiating missing aircraft procedures two hours after the estimated landing time if not notified the flight was safely concluded.

Nothing about ORMS, nothing about checking with the wx services, nothing about "have you pre-flighted the AC"

Are you qualified and current?
Are all pax CAP members or have the appropriate authorizations?
Are you using the right fund site?
You're not going to land at that dirt strip by the beach again are you?
Close out your flight plan or call me or we are going to come looking for you!

That's an FRO's job and nothing else.   Everything else is the PIC's job.

Don't forget:  Are you and everyone on the flight safety current?

[Eclipse]

Don't forget:  Are you and everyone on the flight safety current?

That's one of the reasons to only release electronically, since the system checks that.

[SunDog]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

Sundog....are you an FRO?   Are there any FRO's in your squadron?

It is as easy as taking the online training and then having their names added to the FRO list at wing.

They system as designed is not broke...but as built may be clunky...but that is because people complain about it with out trying to fix it.

Hello Lordmanor!  No, I'm not an FRO, and have never handled a SQTR that would endanger my AOBD avoidance. Seriously, adding either isn't in the cards - the free time isn't there. Flying currency and profuciency take quite a bit of time. Maybe later, if/when I can no longer pass the Medical. . .

I admit to having drunk coffee at a SAREX,  but I don't think I yammered at the Air Branch folks. Even though they sent my crew out to DF  a practice beacon, then couldn't confirm if we had the location correct location on the debrief, because they didn't know where it had been placed. That's gonna happen sometimes, no one is perfect.

[SunDog]

The FRO's main job is to make sure the plane landed safely.

Just look at the 99.

CAP FRO CHECKLIST QUESTIONS
1. Are PIC(s) qualified to fly the CAP aircraft for the type of flight proposed (consult the Ops-Qual FRO Report)? Does the PIC(s) possess the appropriate pilot currency for the flight?

2. Are all aircraft occupants CAP members? If not, have applicable procedures been followed for non-CAP members, including CAPF 9 if applicable?

3. Is the correct mission symbol selected?

4. Is the route of flight complete, and does the PIC have permission to fly to destinations outside the wing? Does permission exist for all landings at
every airport IAW CAPR 60-1?

5. Will a flight plan be filed (required for over 50nm)? If not, what is the estimated landing time?  Unless an FAA flight plan is filed and activated,
the FRO is responsible for initiating missing aircraft procedures two hours after the estimated landing time if not notified the flight was safely concluded.

Nothing about ORMS, nothing about checking with the wx services, nothing about "have you pre-flighted the AC"

Are you qualified and current?
Are all pax CAP members or have the appropriate authorizations?
Are you using the right fund site?
You're not going to land at that dirt strip by the beach again are you?
Close out your flight plan or call me or we are going to come looking for you!

That's an FRO's job and nothing else.   Everything else is the PIC's job.

Don't forget:  Are you and everyone on the flight safety current?

Isn't most of that captured when building the sortie? Or already stored in eServices? I think CAP  knows if I'm qual'ed in the plane, saftey current,  and if there is pax without a CAP ID entered. . .??

I suppose if WMIRS captured that a non-CAP was on board, then it could kick it out to manual FRO intervention, and protect CAP for liability. Pretty sure airport identifiers would be a clue software could use to determine if I was intending to leave the state, and dump it back to manual intervention. In those cases, WMIRS tells me I have to talk to the FRO. Also, I think I indicate if a flight plan is or isn't being filed, as well.

If it's a routine, in-wing, CAP crew only mission, then what will you and I need to talk about? I mean, with even medicire validation and edits, how did the request even get genertated? Why would the sofware allow me to get to the point if bothering you?

I was getting the idea that the other stuff WAS. required -Eclipse, I may have misunderstood you before? I dunno, this looks awfully close to being something that could be automated for most routine missions.

But, if that's a bridge too far, and you just want to hear my dulcett tones, let's go with an absolute limit of one voice comm, before flight, for pilots under a certain CAP  flying hiurs experience threshold.

All bets off on real missions, multi-aircraft training, etc. Then we all talk.

[lordmonar]

Well Sundog......then you are part of the problem.

As much flying as you do and as knowledgeable in CAP procedures as you are.....you are perfect for FRO duties.

This is not being sarcastic.....this is the truth.

But right there you say "I'm too busy to do it" and lament how hard it is to get a hold of someone else who is doing it.
So your answer is "we just shouldn't have to do it".   But really  FRO is a 5-10 minute job.

Get the phone call.....log into Eservices, release the flight.......call the guy back when he forgets to call you.....and call the wing commander and the FAA if he does not answer to start the mission.

You and your buds from your squadron should all become FROs and then you just call each other....no hunting up some nobody from 100 miles away.

Easy Pleasey.

[SunDog]

Oh man, now I feel a LITTLE guilty. . . I could bob-and-weave, tell you I'm not available via phone for most of the day (which is true), but I won't BS you. . .I don't care to be a FRO, and wouldn't volunteer if I could be available.  It's not a part of CAP  that appeals to me. Same with Ground Team, and CP. All worthy endeavors, and it's cool folks want to do those things. But, as a volnteer, I don't.

I didn't complain so much about not being able to contact a FRO - I think my Wing probably has enough - more directly, I was asking, challenging really, the "why"; what's the value added, or what's the value added that couldn't be automated, at least for routine flights? And, bigger picture, beyond flight release issues, are we being smart with our time? Are we doing what makes sense, are we making ops safer, or just throwing up hoops that seem like a "good idea" to someone? I think members will put up with a lot of "overhead" if the tasks make sense. Not so much when tasks don't make sense, or exist to cover gaps in bad systems or bad business practices.

Anyone here think NHQ has done an adequate job with automation? I think a few folks do, actually. Maybe a lot more don't? Anyone feel like NHQ has other priorities, other uses for the $$$, and figures what we have is good enough? It wouldn't cost a lot to review work flow, take some measures, and alter some emphasis. And it would be real cheap to do dome comms - anyone here feel like a mushroom?

I sense some members feel like it's immoral or slacking off to be mostly just a pilot in CAP,  with a light "other duty" load. I haven't felt that same vibe for the real active GTMs, or lawyers, or chaplains. Flying is what I bring to the table. Yep, it's fun, maybe more fun than the very important work the lawyer is doing for CAP.

And while our egos usually keep us from admitting it, it's stressful. It's tiring, and it can be scary. Not to be dramatic, just being straight with you. . .it takes a lot of time, and that's freely given, and it comes out of our life "bank account".  CAP should spend it with respect. . .

[Spaceman3750]

I admit to having drunk coffee at a SAREX,  but I don't think I yammered at the Air Branch folks. Even though they sent my crew out to DF  a practice beacon, then couldn't confirm if we had the location correct location on the debrief, because they didn't know where it had been placed. That's gonna happen sometimes, no one is perfect.

Nobody dispatched a GT to deactivate?

[lordmonar]

SunDog....to answer your question about Value Added for FROs.....as past experience has told us......telling someone where you are going, what you are doing and when you are coming back is the NUMBER ONE way of helping you if you get into trouble.

You see this time and time again....lost hiker, missing elderly, over due aircraft.......It is when the search target does not show up for work on Monday morning is the first time anyone has missed them.  Then the concerned relatives spend hours looking in "his usual haunts" before the figure out something is really wrong.....but no one knows where to start looking.

The whole point of FRO is someone knows what your plan was and when you were supposed to be back.....so the search starts two hours after you are over due....in stead of two days......and they have a general idea of where you were supposed to be so they can start looking there.

Like I said....a lot of wings and a lot of FRO's add a bunch of BS to the process that may not be value added.....but the main point of knowing what your plan was.....and starting the search early......is defiantly value added IMHO.

As for just being a pilot......in my book there is nothing wrong with that.  But if you are not part of the system you use......it is a little disingenuous to gripe about how "it doesn't work so well"

Thanks for serving.

[RiverAux]

SunDog....to answer your question about Value Added for FROs.....as past experience has told us......telling someone where you are going, what you are doing and when you are coming back is the NUMBER ONE way of helping you if you get into trouble.

Again, something that could be automated.  Frankly, I'd feel more comfortable if an email/text blast went out to the 20 different people on Wing staff and the ICs from WMIRS if a sortie wasn't closed by a certain time rather than depending on a single FRO to remember, "oh yeah, Johnny was supposed to call me a few hours ago). 

[Eclipse]

^ So in an environment where people are still telephoning each other to let them know they sent them an email,
automation helps this?

The issues Sundog keeps raising are a combo of people problems and "I know better".  Neither are likely to be helped by further
automation.

Who's going to call all the people on the email list and tell them they have an email coming?

What if they are on vacation?

[lordmonar]

SunDog....to answer your question about Value Added for FROs.....as past experience has told us......telling someone where you are going, what you are doing and when you are coming back is the NUMBER ONE way of helping you if you get into trouble.

Again, something that could be automated.  Frankly, I'd feel more comfortable if an email/text blast went out to the 20 different people on Wing staff and the ICs from WMIRS if a sortie wasn't closed by a certain time rather than depending on a single FRO to remember, "oh yeah, Johnny was supposed to call me a few hours ago).

Which one is supposed to make the call when you are over due?

But talking to your FRO before you fly.....makes sure that there is actually a person there to get that automated text and do something about it.
Now....here is an interesting idea.......why not make the NOC be the FRO?  Manned 24 hours 7 days a week.....and if you are over due....they step 10 feet to the left and get AFRCC on it right away....also they don't have a problem with finding out who to call to start the ball rolling.

[lordmonar]

What if they are on vacation?

Or asleep?   I'm going to fly from 20:00 to 22:00 on a Friday to a distant base for an 06:00 SAREX the next morning.
At 00:00 when I am officially over due....the E-mail goes out........and no one reads it because they all went to be at 10:00 so they can be ready for the 06:00 SAREX.

Like I said before.....maybe the NOC should be the FRO.

[SunDog]

What if they are on vacation?

Or asleep?   I'm going to fly from 20:00 to 22:00 on a Friday to a distant base for an 06:00 SAREX the next morning.
At 00:00 when I am officially over due....the E-mail goes out........and no one reads it because they all went to be at 10:00 so they can be ready for the 06:00 SAREX.

Like I said before.....maybe the NOC should be the FRO.

Hi L,

Trying to stay out of the weeds, but for this example, unless the ELT goes off, no one is coming looking for you until dawn, anyway. At least not from CAP.

But yeah, it's good someone knows when and where we're going, but that, as someone just said, might best be handled with automation. Or your NOC idea. Or not. Be great if NHQ  had that conversation with us,
kicked it around, etc.

I filed SFRA and VFR flight plans today, got a weather brief, checked for pop-up TFRs, and got a departure freq and squawk. I didn't talk to a human until engine start.

I was thinking, as I mentioned earlier, keep the FRO in the mix, but for most routine missions, flown by experinced pilots, drop the voice comm. If you're one of the FROs on my list, and are the first to respond to the ping from WMIRS, and release me, again, what do we have to talk about? And if WMIRS pings you when I close, no conversation necessary, right? And if I don't close, multiple pings go out, or, as you suggested, the NOC gets a blast.

Climbing back up to the light levels - I think there may be numeous examples like this, doing it smarter, saving some aggravation, maybe a little safer.

Someone asked me the form number for a non-CAP passenger. I didn't know, and didn't care. It is important that I know the form is necessary, and that we need it when someone not from CAP  will be on-board. On the very rare occasion I have such a paasenger, other folks will be involved, and it will come up And I will look up the Form and give it the required attention.

Asking me to recall the form number on a Form 5 checkride is kinda dumb, though, isn't it? Wouldn't it be smarter to quiz me on how to handle non-CAP passengers? Make sure I know approval is required, and I have to have the pax sign the release, and NOT take it on the flight?

Have more modern, scenario based evaluation, maybe? Just a very minor, trivial example. But it has many brothers and sisters.

[Larry Mangum]

SunDog....to answer your question about Value Added for FROs.....as past experience has told us......telling someone where you are going, what you are doing and when you are coming back is the NUMBER ONE way of helping you if you get into trouble.

Again, something that could be automated.  Frankly, I'd feel more comfortable if an email/text blast went out to the 20 different people on Wing staff and the ICs from WMIRS if a sortie wasn't closed by a certain time rather than depending on a single FRO to remember, "oh yeah, Johnny was supposed to call me a few hours ago).

Which one is supposed to make the call when you are over due?

But talking to your FRO before you fly.....makes sure that there is actually a person there to get that automated text and do something about it.
Now....here is an interesting idea.......why not make the NOC be the FRO?  Manned 24 hours 7 days a week.....and if you are over due....they step 10 feet to the left and get AFRCC on it right away....also they don't have a problem with finding out who to call to start the ball rolling.

Actually, the NOC is not manned 24x7,more like 8~10x7, with a forwarded phone to the duty officer in the evenings and on weekends.

[RiverAux]

What if they are on vacation?

Or asleep? 

I mentioned text as well as email and it wouldn't be a whole lot harder to add in an automated phone alert as well. 

If the NOC was manned 24-7, then I would probably be in favor of using them. 

[Eclipse]

I'd hazard at least 1/2, if not 2/3rds of the fleet is used for at least one sortie a day and that's on a weekday.
Summer weekends would be nearly the entire fleet.

Adding 200-250+ phone calls, emails, or even data points to the day of one or two people who, presumably,
already have a fair day's work, isn't going to be easy or cheap.

Plus this "fixes" a non-existent problem.  If your FROs can't be bothered, make them "not FROs".

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

What if they are on vacation?

Or asleep?   I'm going to fly from 20:00 to 22:00 on a Friday to a distant base for an 06:00 SAREX the next morning.
At 00:00 when I am officially over due....the E-mail goes out........and no one reads it because they all went to be at 10:00 so they can be ready for the 06:00 SAREX.

Trying to stay out of the weeds, but for this example, unless the ELT goes off, no one is coming looking for you until dawn, anyway. At least not from CAP.

Ummm... the statements above need some clarification.  If you go down and the 406 ELT goes off and AFRCC get the notification that it's a CAP plane, they are going to be calling your WAMO ASAP.  When you are overdue the FRO is not supposed to send an email but call the WAMO and report the overdue aircraft.  The WAMO get's an IC and a mission is started. 

Dawn?  Can we not fly at night looking for our own?

[sparks]

Night electronic are searches are possible. I have flown several successful missions. Identification and coordination with the ground team is a challenge but also doable. Route searches, anything visible, really needs daylight to work.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Thanks sparks for responding to my rhetorical question 

I would launch an aircraft on a night electronic search, gather resources for a first light search, determine probabilities, gather cell and radar data.  I would not be sitting on my hands until dawn.  I would be part of a CAP team searching for one our own.