Should customs/courtesies and uniform wear be enforced?

[JoeTomasone]

Straw poll here in conjunction with the "CAP Culture" thread.    What say you all?

[N Harmon]

Define "uniform nazi".

[JoeTomasone]

Define "uniform nazi".

Changed it.

[MIKE]

If you are gonna wear a uniform, you should wear it correctly with no half-measures.  If not, don't wear it.  Kick people out who habitually fail to wear it properly and either refuse to fix it, or stop wearing it.

IMO... C&C gets goofy within CAP given the typical situation... I wouldn't overdo it... Some units could simply skip it with no issues.

[RiverAux]

We should enforce both because we are the Auxiliary of the Air Force and should adopt their standards.

Did you mean adopt AF standard?  We've already adopted the standards of the Aux of the AF.

[DG]

From what I see,

The egregious offenses are coming from those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms improperly.

And while wearing the Air Force style uniform, they do not observe customs and courtesies, or they observe improperly.

From my experience, those members who wear CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are almost always in compliance with 39-1.  Mainly, of course, because the rules for wearing CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are not as restrictive or detailed.

So the heavy "enforcement" should rain down on those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms, and rain down hard.

[PHall]

From what I see,

The egregious offenses are coming from those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms improperly.

And while wearing the Air Force style uniform, they do not observe customs and courtesies, or they observe improperly.

From my experience, those members who wear CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are almost always in compliance with 39-1.  Mainly, of course, because the rules for wearing CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are not as restrictive or detailed.

So the heavy "enforcement" should rain down on those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms, and rain down hard.

Oh, I've seen many a nasty Corporate Uniform out there too.

The feeling seems to be, it's not the "military" uniform so there are no rules.

And I'm all for enforcing the rules equally on everybody. If you're wearing a uniform, then wear it correctly, period.

[Eclipse]

There's also no "relief" from customs and courtesies just because you're in a distinctive uniform.  You may not get as many salutes on a military base, but internal to CAP, they all apply, "sirs", salutes, and all.

[Always Ready]

I have been in several situations as both a cadet and a SM where I was in a position over someone that ranked me. During my stint as Cadet Commander, I had six or seven cadet officers that out ranked me...several of them out ranked me by a mile. Did that matter? No. When I gave orders, they followed them. In the same sentence, I never pushed it. I gave them the same customs and courtesies that I did when I was not in a position above them and they did the same. It's not about being formal, but giving each other respect. I knew if I gave an order, it would be followed. I also knew if they disagreed with an order that they would have no problems telling me why (and oh boy did they tell me) and they would still comply with my order if I decided that it should stand. I say again, it is about respect not formality. Several of these members out rank me or are lower in rank than me now, but I will respect them no differently than I did two years ago.

Respect the rank (grade), but also respect the person. Don't go around calling your subordinates by their first name and expect that they don't do the same. If you want to call each other by your first names, fine, do it behind closed doors and especially not around the cadets or the public.

In military terms think of it this way, if a combat arms instructor is a USAF SSgt (E-5) was teaching a 2d Lt how to shoot a M9 Beretta, would the 2d Lt have to listen to the SSgt and obey his/her commands? By all means yes! If the Lt didn't, they would get in a lot of trouble in no time flat. But that SSgt still has to abide by the same customs and courtesies that he/she had to five minutes before that Lt became his/her student.

My standing policy is, and always will be, that I will call everyone by their Grade and Last Name (i.e. Cadet Smith or Lt Smart), but behind closed doors (figuratively speaking) I will call them by whatever they want to be called whether it be Grade and Name or just Name. In the same environment, I have no problem them calling me by my given name but when that environment changes from private to public that changes back. I think of it as public vs private settings. I have this way of thinking because I don't want to be called Mr. or TFO outside of CAP. I also don't want to be called just by my given name during an awards ceremony at which I am receiving a professional development award that I worked hard for. Just my humble opinion.

If a 12 year old cadet can wear a uniform properly and comply with our custom and courtesy standards, then why can't our Senior Members do the same?

[Gunner C]

Enforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?    That's just the other side of bizarre. 

[Al Sayre]

What?  You don't line your kids up outside their rooms standing at attention for barracks inspection? 

[tarheel gumby]

In my humble opinion customs, courtesies and correct uniform wear should be required for all members not just cadets. How can we as an organization expect the cadets to do one thing when we as senior members do something else? As for the CSU well if worn properly it reflects a professional image to the AF and public, that also goes hand in hand with customs and courtesies. The public  generally can't tell the difference between our uniforms.

[Cecil DP]

In my humble opinion customs, courtesies and correct uniform wear should be required for all members not just cadets. How can we as an organization expect the cadets to do one thing when we as senior members do something else? As for the CSU well if worn properly it reflects a professional image to the AF and public, that also goes hand in hand with customs and courtesies. The public  generally can't tell the difference between our uniforms.

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

[Climbnsink]

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

[Eclipse]

^ 

[winterg]

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate! 

[JoeTomasone]

Enforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?    That's just the other side of bizarre. 

Actually, my 8 year old daughter does on occasion when I am in uniform and getting ready to leave.

Yes, she wants to join. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Enforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?    That's just the other side of bizarre. 

Actually, my 8 year old daughter does on occasion when I am in uniform and getting ready to leave.

Yes, she wants to join. 

I can attest to that.

Bottom line: If you're going to wear the Air Force uniform, you'd better play by the Air Force's rules. To boot, if you're going to teach cadets, you'd better lead by example.

Diamonds 15 years ago, oak leaves now, nothing's different for me. Former cadets may be among the most vehement about this.

[Climbnsink]

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate! 

But in reality doesn't the chain of command vary depending on skills?  If I outrank the IC during a mission he is not under my chain of command.  So there are members that are in charge of various things at different times but chain of command not so much.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate! 

But in reality doesn't the chain of command vary depending on skills?  If I outrank the IC during a mission he is not under my chain of command.  So there are members that are in charge of various things at different times but chain of command not so much.

The chain of command exists even in places where the one in charge is outranked by a subordinate... or a passenger.

On Air Force One, when the President is aboard, who's actually in charge? It's not the President. It's the pilot. That's not to say the President has authority, but in the situation, a subordinate becomes superior because of responsibility.

Same goes in CAP -- a subordinate may become a superior in a situation in which the subordinate has responsibility. Doesn't mean the superior isn't rendered proper honors by the subordinate, but it does mean the superior understands his role is not guaranteed by grade.