Cadets Dating

[PaulR]

I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a student having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 

[RogueLeader]

[DC]

I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a teacher having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 

See bold, I think that is what he meant...

[RogueLeader]

That does change the meaning doesn't it.

[DG]

THANK YOU, JIMMYDEANNO!!!

[RiverAux]

Lets say you are squadron commander and discover that a cadet in your unit over the age of majority in your state is dating a cadet under the age of majority and that there is supposedly a sexual relationship between the two?  In other words, you learn that you may have a case of statutory rape between two of your cadets. 

Seems to me that while this wouldn't violate CAP regulations, it would be your duty to report it to law enforcement for investigation.

[smj58501]

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out...

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.

Yes, and Lee Harvey Oswald learned how to shoot in the Marine Corps too

[Stonewall]

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out...

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.

Yes, and Lee Harvey Oswald learned how to shoot in the Marine Corps too

I hope no one was thinking that I was strictly against cadet relationships.  I was merely using what I posted as a means to demonstrate there are positive and negative outcomes, regardless of what policies are in place.

As I said in my initial post, you can't make rules against human nature and expect people to follow them.  Dating in any seeting, be it school, CAP, work place, military, is inevitable.

[Sleepwalker]

  It seems to me that CAPR 52-16 is quite clear about many of these issues being discussed here:

" It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances. "

[flyguy06]

I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a student having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

[Eclipse]

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Yes.

Its clearly and explicitly prohibited by regulation.  No gray area, no room for interpenetration, no place to look the other way.

Period.

Is it any wonder we have issues of insubordination, lack of discipline, and general "You can't tell me what to do." in CAP when a reg that is this clear still leaves members believing it can be interperated , fudged, or wholly ignored? 

You read it, heed, and adhere, or ignore at your own peril.

[lordmonar]

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Yes.

Its clearly and explicitly prohibited by regulation.  No gray area, no room for interpenetration, no place to look the other way.

Period.

Is it any wonder we have issues of insubordination, lack of discipline, and general "You can't tell me what to do." in CAP when a reg that is this clear still leaves members believing it can be interperated , fudged, or wholly ignored? 

You read it, heed, and adhere, or ignore at your own peril.

Even if said regulation is stupid.   

[Eclipse]

Lets say you are squadron commander and discover that a cadet in your unit over the age of majority in your state is dating a cadet under the age of majority and that there is supposedly a sexual relationship between the two?  In other words, you learn that you may have a case of statutory rape between two of your cadets. 

Seems to me that while this wouldn't violate CAP regulations, it would be your duty to report it to law enforcement for investigation.

In this case the relationship violates the law, and there are clear CAP guidelines regarding internal, and sometimes external, "duty to report" sexual abuse, which is what this would be defined as legally.

a. Sexual Abuse. Sexual abuse is defined as sexual molestation, touching, contact, exposure, suggestions, or other incidents of a sexually oriented nature. The unit commander will immediately notify the wing commander who will immediately notify the wing legal officer, and the General Counsel (at 877-227-9142, ext 234) during business hours or the National Operations Center (NOC) at 888-211-1812, ext 300 after hours, weekends, and holidays) or the Executive Director (at 877-227-9142, ext 222). No investigation will be conducted nor statements taken until specifically directed by the General Counsel. The General Counsel will notify the region commander, National Commander, other appropriate offcials, and state agencies as required.

In states where reporting by "anyone" is required, or the Unit CC's external occupation (i.e. LEO, teacher, MD, etc.) requires reporting, reporting to the Wing CC does not replace reporting to the required outside agencies as appropriate.

[davidsinn]

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Personally: No I do not. Professionally as an Officer in CAP: Absolutely I have a problem with it because we have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. I'll enforce it even though I think it is stupid and I'll try to change it but until it is changed that's the rule.

[Ned]

. . ..  [W]e have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. .

I did think it was particularly well-written.   

[smj58501]

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Personally: No I do not. Professionally as an Officer in CAP: Absolutely I have a problem with it because we have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. I'll enforce it even though I think it is stupid and I'll try to change it but until it is changed that's the rule.

And pragmatically, if the above situation were in play (and they REALLY liked each other), then the cadet should become a Senior Member.

If they are not willing to make this accomodation in their CAP status to facilitate their personal relationship, then obviously CAP is more important to them as individuals than their relationship with each other. If CAP is more important, then they need to stop seeing each other for the good of the organization they feel is so important.

[lordmonar]

Pragmatically.....I would look at each situaiton and deal with it as it deserved.

If the relationship did not violate any laws.....and the particpants mature and low key.....and it did not cause any problems with my squadron (or anyone else's)....I would turn a blind eye to it.

does this make me a bad leader?

I don't think so.  The rule is there if I need to use it.  I would most certainly have a talk with the individuals involved.  But because of the gray areas and the bright line involved with our program I look to the a) Safety and surcuity of my cadets and senior members and b) accomplishing the mission.

Beyond that I just don't have time to play Dating Police.

[PORed]

I would just like to throw it out there that not all cadets dating is a bad thing, they are teenagers they will want to date each other. My wife and I met as cadets, dated successfully and got married, so its not all bad  . As long as the cadets do it properly in the sense of no PDA, or favoritism if one is in a command role and the other isn't I think it is a good thing. 

[Johnny Yuma]

It amazes me how many folks still believe that the CPPT was written to protect cadets. It doesn't surprise me that some folks on here are still trying to continue this lie myth.

CPPT was written for only one reason: To protect NHQ, Inc.'s financial interests and those of its officers, that being the National Board and NEC. If it were honestly in the best interests of the cadet then NHQ would never have discouraged members suspecting abuse from going direct to the civil authorities. Up until very recently anyone reporting cadet abuse was to report it to a corporate officer, shut up and let NHQ, INC and hopeassume NHQ, Inc. would report it. Anyone who doesn't believe that NHQ was doing damage control first and cadet welfare second probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Its only recently that the policy's changed and technically it only changed for those required to report abuse by law, like cops, teachers, etc. and only after those Bozos at Starrswon made it an issue.

Now I know Ned is one of those who helped write CPPT, but IIRC he's a lawyer whose primary interest is protecting his client at the expense of everything but the law and professional ethics. He can talk all day long about 30 year old abusing 15 year olds, but it's a red herring.

An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   

[hatentx]

I would just like to throw it out there that not all cadets dating is a bad thing, they are teenagers they will want to date each other. My wife and I met as cadets, dated successfully and got married, so its not all bad  . As long as the cadets do it properly in the sense of no PDA, or favoritism if one is in a command role and the other isn't I think it is a good thing. 

Good Luck with the no favoritism.  I have seen in Active duty where it a lower enlisted soldier is dating an NCO from a different company and the NCO still shows favoritism in areas he can.  While this is an adult in his 30's and they are unable to do it what are the odds that a Cadet is able to do it as well.  I am not saying it cant be done but it is difficult for someone with so much less life experiance to be able to master a difficult task such as this.

I was thinking and just wanting to throw this out there, what and about a SM dating a member of a cadets family?  What if I were to start dating a Cadet's mother.... wow that would be an age jump for me but still in theory it could happen, or more likely a cadets sister.  While this has just as much of a potential impact as any other kind of relationship in CAP what is thought of this?