Salutations...

[JohnKachenmeister]

SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates.  As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean.  I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant.  I had, actually, NO rank.

[ColonelJack]

SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates.  As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean.  I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant.  I had, actually, NO rank.

You were paid at E-6 grade, and if you bombed out you'd then be a staff sergeant ... but an OC has no rank and technically isn't in the Army.  He's a student who will be a soldier -- either as an officer or an NCO.  Right?

Jack

[Hawk200]

SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates.  As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean.  I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant.  I had, actually, NO rank.

You were paid at E-6 grade, and if you bombed out you'd then be a staff sergeant ... but an OC has no rank and technically isn't in the Army.  He's a student who will be a soldier -- either as an officer or an NCO.  Right?

Jack

Pretty much. The E-6 grade is literally just a pay scale. They get paid that way, but they don't carry the rank associated with the grade.

[Nomex Maximus]

As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.

OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?

Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!

So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"

[Ford73Diesel]

So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"

Most SMWOG's I see refer to themselves as "Senior Member Smith", just as some cadets report as "Cadet Smith".

[ddelaney103]

As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.

OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?

Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!

So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"

They misnamed your position?

According to regs, you should be considered an Airman, not an officer.  The rules used to say you should wear the Airman's flight cap (with the blue braid) instead of the offficer flight cap (with the blue and silver braid).

I'm the only one I know that went to that trouble, but I already had both types of flight caps.

[SarDragon]

As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.

OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?

Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!

So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"

You are confusing position and grade/rank. Theoretically, a SMWOG could be a unit commander, however unlikely that actually is.

Af for reporting, you would normally only formally report to CAP personnel. At the ANG Base, just show up, exchange the normal pleasantries, and get on with business. Should you be in the position to formally report, it would be "Senior Member Nomex, reporting sir!"

[JohnKachenmeister]

Technically, as an officer candidate I was sort of kind of an officer.  I could be treated like excrement by the TAC staff, but not by anyone else.  When my Guard unit was called up for a blizzard, I was also mobilized, but assigned officer duties.

Yes, if I had failed to complete OCS, I would have returned to my unit as a SSG.  When I was commissioned, my discharge from enlisted rank read "Staff Sergeant," although I never actually wore three-and-a-rocker.

A SM is sort of like an officer candidate.  You can be assigned officer duties but your primary duty is to learn how to be an officer so you won't look too foolish as a lieutenant.

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .

A SM is sort of like an officer candidate.  You can be assigned officer duties but your primary duty is to learn how to be an officer so you won't look too foolish as a lieutenant.

Dude, trust me I can look foolish even as a Captain. In fact, I am looking forward to it!

[sandman]

Folks, it ain't that hard....

If you are not wearing any grade insignia (SMWOG) you can choose to salute all real military officers including warrants or not. For the most part they won't know the difference and you would not confuse anybody. Of course, salute your CAP officers!

If you wear an insignia mark on your collar that looks like a butter bar or higher, then perform the time honored custom of saluting! Otherwise you will cause confusion of you do not follow the custom.

Any further questions?

I'll put it this way: If I saw you in your CAP uniform walking toward me and you were wearing major or higher (me wearing my real military uniform) I would whip out a salute and greeting because we're pretty much on the same team.

If I walked past you wearing your CAP uniform and you were below my current active duty grade and you did not salute...I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so) and might even consider banning your access to the military facility you were currently on.

Truthfully, I might mention something about the stupid CAP to my CO after just walking away from you shaking my head....

That's how it really works, and you lower the perception of the CAP in several real officers minds....how's that for cause and effect?

Think about how others perceive you and CAP if you neglect to properly follow C&C while you wear a uniform of this country.....

/r
LT

[Chaplaindon]

LT Sandman,

While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...

While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."

This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.

St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.

Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).

Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.

Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.

There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).

CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.

Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.

Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.

[sandman]

LT Sandman,

While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...

While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."

This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.

St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.

Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).

Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.

Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.

There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).

CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.

Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.

Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.

Chaps,

Didn't you get the memo?

Please read the paragraph following the one you focused on....

Secondly, I said nothing about cadets.

Lastly, read "hazing" as reminding a CAP officer how to execute a salute properly and to whom...the situation I stated had me in real military uniform and the CAP officer in his or her CAP uniform......(besides, the smiley icon didn't load).

As a 20+ year veteran (enlisted and officer) I would know when and under what circumstances it would be prudent to educate a CAP officer regarding C&C and if it needed to be informal, formal, behind closed doors, or in front of CAP peers

[Chaplaindon]

LT Sandman,

While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...

While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."

This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.

St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.

Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).

Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.

Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.

There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).

CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.

Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.

Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.

Chaps,

Didn't you get the memo?

Please read the paragraph following the one you focused on....

Secondly, I said nothing about cadets.

Lastly, read "hazing" as reminding a CAP officer how to execute a salute properly and to whom...the situation I stated had me in real military uniform and the CAP officer in his or her CAP uniform......(besides, the smiley icon didn't load).

As a 20+ year veteran (enlisted and officer) I would know when and under what circumstances it would be prudent to educate a CAP officer regarding C&C and if it needed to be informal, formal, behind closed doors, or in front of CAP peers

LT,

Thanks for the prompt reply and your clarification. Once again, I intend no disrespect.

Three points of clarification in response:

1. Obviously, I didn't get "the memo."

2. Smiley faces notwithstanding, "[t]here must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member" (my words). If we are in the least vague on this matter a dangerous "door" could be opened leading to all sorts of potential bad conduct by CAP members of all ages. Use of the word "hazing" when one really means "reminding" is IMHO unhelpfully misleading, particularly in a CAP context. To my mind it's a bit like (pre-9/11) joking about a gun or bomb while attempting to go through airport security ... even as a joke using either noun could get a person into BIG trouble ... post 9/11 it could get you a PCS to Gitmo. Likewise I, personally, don't believe we should joke about hazing in CAP.

3.  Even though, granted, the Cadet Protection Program --and its inherent prohibition on hazing and verbal abuse-- applies only to cadet members, that fact alone should not (again, IMHO) encourage similar treatment toward adult SMs. Lilly Tomlin's character of the child "Edith Anne" was forever justifying misbehavior on the basis that "mommy didn't tell me not to _______." Just because something is not expressly prohibited doesn't make it right, good, useful, or helpful. I believe that if conduct is considered abusive or (at least) inappropriate  when directed toward cadet members, it should be seen as similarly so for adults. Remember too, we have SMs who are chronolocally younger (and therein, perhaps, less mature) than some cadets.

As I prefaced my earlier comments, I sought not an ad hominem attack on you, or anyone ... as that would be hypocritical based on my statements about civil/moral conduct toward members ... however, I sought overtly to challenge your use of the term "hazing" to decribe lawful and/or appropriate redress for minor infractions.

I am glad that you meant something other than you wrote (e.g. "reminding"), I presumed a much. However, the possibility of someone taking you (or anyone on this board) at their word (e.g. lawful hazing) could have very harmful effects in CAP, especially between cadets and necessitated a challenge.

Thanks for the clarification.

[sandman]

Chaps,

Fair enough. I concede the use of the term "hazing" could be misconstrued by those with less than a sense of "tongue-in-cheek"

Thanks for calling me on that.

To all: Remember to properly salute those officers senior in grade to your own and return a salute offered to you by those junior in grade to you, real military or not.

After all, we're all on the same team....

Be well.

/r
LT

[Chaplaindon]

You're welcome.

Stay safe.

/r

CD

[Nomex Maximus]

Now, see, here is the whole reason why I started this thread. Apparently saluting IS a big deal in spite of the relative informality that I have experienced in CAP so far. I am a civilian and the whole idea of having to exist within a military social context is a bit confusing. My experience with CAP so far is one of golf shirts, occasional attendance at meetings by others in the squadron and this ongoing distinction between "Real Military" and CAP. I am not in the Air Force, but I am working with it, but I am not saluted by AF enlisted but I am supposed to salute AF officers, but I don't normally salute other CAP members, but I am supposed to salute other CAP members, I have reason to go onto a military base but I cannot use some facilities, or maybe I can...

...it's all quite confusing. I am just here to put my piloting and ham radio skills to use as an emergency services volunteer.

--Nomex

[RogueLeader]

One thing that I have noticed is that some enlisted don't/won't salute CAP Officers under the Grade of Captain.   They did stand at a fair resemblance of Attention.  Also, military personnel are not required to salute us.  They are not prohibited from doing so, though.  That is one of the peculiarities of the CAP/Military relationship.

[Chaplaindon]

Now, see, here is the whole reason why I started this thread. Apparently saluting IS a big deal in spite of the relative informality that I have experienced in CAP so far. I am a civilian and the whole idea of having to exist within a military social context is a bit confusing. My experience with CAP so far is one of golf shirts, occasional attendance at meetings by others in the squadron and this ongoing distinction between "Real Military" and CAP. I am not in the Air Force, but I am working with it, but I am not saluted by AF enlisted but I am supposed to salute AF officers, but I don't normally salute other CAP members, but I am supposed to salute other CAP members, I have reason to go onto a military base but I cannot use some facilities, or maybe I can...

...it's all quite confusing. I am just here to put my piloting and ham radio skills to use as an emergency services volunteer.

--Nomex

Nomex ...

Saluting CAN be a big thing, in certain circumstances. This is especially true when a CAP member is wearing a military look-a-lot-like uniform (as opposed to the golf shirt combo, for example) and attending a class or event (e.g., maybe an air show) on a military base or working on a large multi-agency ES mission such as JTF-Katrina.

As a CAP member for more than 20 years, I've had numerous occasions to use the facilities at military installations of several different branches of the armed forces.

My experience there was that it was quite common for enlisted personnel and even officers of lesser grade than on my epaulets to offer a salute and/or address me as "sir." Personally, I prefer "chaplain."

That their salutes were not required by the UCMJ (albeit, I suspect some of the junior enlisted personnel --e.g. basic trainees-- saluted "just in case") made it a real courtesy in my eyes.

Likewise, I would return the salute (remember -- an important aspect of the salute ... we both salute each other but it's cutomarily the junior grade person offering the salute FIRST and the senior who returns it) of any person who saluted me --in JROTC (eons ago), I hated having my snappy salute needlessly answered by a dismissive "as you were"-- and would render a salute to those of my grade and above in CAP and the military.

I would accompany the salute with a warm genuine greeting, "good morning (etc.)______."

This greeting is important too. One renders a salute to the uniform and to the grade (or honors) represented thereon. One greets the person, the human being, inside.

Outside of look-a-lot-alike CAP/military uniforms (and away from cadets, who've usually been taught to come to "brace" and rigidly salute almost any adult) saluting is unlikely.

That having been said, the greeting should still be rendered ... and if a cadet salutes you anyway ... I'd return it out of respect regardless of my uniform.

It's really not very complex especially if one wears the golf shirt uniform.

One hint, though, if you think you might have need to salute (or return a cadet salute) practice by yourself in front of  mirror until you're comfortable with doing it right. A cadet might give you some really good pointers too.

[Briski]

Hehehe.

When I was a new cadet (I think I was a C/A1C at the time), I learned that I was supposed to be saluting cadet officers from CadetStuff.org. I literally had no idea until someone mentioned it nonchalantly in some thread, and I actually posted in response, doulbe checking to be sure I'd interpreted the post properly and that I was supposed to be saluting cadet officers before I went around doing it.

So then when I started saluting our two cadet officers every Tuesday night, I got made fun of by the other cadets. Yes, I'm being serious. But after a while, the Sq CC started getting on the C/CC about it, wondering why I was the only one doing what I was supposed to be doing. And suddenly this little thing known as "leadership" randomly happened, and the standards of behavior and professionalism in the unit improved.

That's why this kind of discussion board is so important. It gives members a chance to learn which areas their units need to improve in, so they can do what they can at their level to help fix it.

Or at least, as long as we don't run everyone off by flamin' the crap outta 'em whenever they actually have the gall to ask a question.

(And for the record, the squadron described above is not the one I am currently a member of.)

[0]

Sometimes it does get to be a problem.  We have the issue of cadets walking by in doors without greeting the officers.  We've had to repeat it with the cadets a few times till they remembered what they were supposed to do or had a fellow cadet remind them.