Maj Gen Pineda Misconduct Investigation Hits the News

[lordmonar]

I don't know whether or not NOTF is credible or not, but I do know that a credible paper like the Miami Herald and AF Times wouldn't even touch the story and risk their reputations if their sources weren't legit.

Also about the comment about this Ray Hagen dude . Is CAP really that serious that he would go to these lengths just to get a man fired from a non paying volunteer organization? Its not like he;s gonna loose any money over it. The comment was made that rather than face a formal hearing that could result in termination of membership. Ok. Ans termination of membership means what? He doesn't have to pay expensive Vanguard prices anymore

Oh...as for this piece NOTF is right on.  Hayden did make an accusation, Hayden did send it to OSI, the IG and to the USAF and they are investigating.

Where NOTF is wrong...is where they are painting Hayden as some victim of the MGen Pinda's Mafia.

Not wanting to speculate about what is and is not true in this fiasco...but the best course of action for everyone involved is to stop talking about it.  This almost likely to come down to he said, she said and the guy with the most credibility will win.

Anyone keeping score?

[Major_Chuck]

Pineda All Stars  0,  NOTF 0,

Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter. 

[lordmonar]

Pineda All Stars  0,  NOTF 0,

Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter. 

I was thinking more on the level of Pineda Vs Hayden.

And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.

[Pumbaa]

What has been touched really lightly here is this...

No matter what... Hayden is a liar.. by his own words... and deeds..

If his accusation is true, then he lied by taking the test for someone else and covering it up.  This is a man with a serious moral flaw.. PERIOD!

If he is lying and his accusation is false, then he is just the same.. a liar.... This man has a serious moral flaw.

The big question is which lie is true?

THink about that!

[lordmonar]

What has been touched really lightly here is this...

No matter what... Hayden is a liar.. by his own words... and deeds..

If his accusation is true, then he lied by taking the test for someone else and covering it up.  This is a man with a serious moral flaw.. PERIOD!

If he is lying and his accusation is false, then he is just the same.. a liar.... This man has a serious moral flaw.

The big question is which lie is true?

THink about that!

Hence the best thing we can do is sit back and wait for the investigation to be completed.  Hayden is alread gone....gone for good.  What we have to do is wait to see if we get a new commander or not.

[BlackKnight]

[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.

Okay- I'll bite.  How do you become a Pineda All-Star?

[Major_Chuck]

Pineda All Stars  0,  NOTF 0,

Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter. 

I was thinking more on the level of Pineda Vs Hayden.

And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.

It is early in the first quarter, we've recovered the ball and Colonel Linker is running with it.

[Major_Chuck]

I will be the first to admit that Maj Gen Pineda has done some things I don't really agree with, but on this one I am going to line up behind the man for the better of CAP. 

My gut instinct is that the charge is unfounded.  He may have done some other things that are questionable or disagreeable but I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt here and wait and see how things play out.

Unfortunately, the damage to the CAP reputation has been done and caused by Hayden and NOTF.  (In my opinion).

[lordmonar]

[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.

Okay- I'll bite.  How do you become a Pineda All-Star?

You got a CAPID?  You are a member of the All Stars!  He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns.  Until then we should support him and his policies.

[ELTHunter]

[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.

Okay- I'll bite.  How do you become a Pineda All-Star?

You got a CAPID?  You are a member of the All Stars!  He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns.  Until then we should support him and his policies.

The only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound.  Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education.  I am reserving judgement on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it.  However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.

[lordmonar]

The only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound.  Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education.  I am reserving judgment on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it.  However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.

I'm shocked Major!  I'm not asking anyone to blindly back anyone.  But just because he may or may not be a cheat is not a reason not to back his policies until you are given new marching orders.

I'm sorry sir that is just not the way it works!

Do you want one of your cadets not backing your choice of cadet commander because he does not like the way he was chosen?

No sir...this is basic follower ship.  I'm not saying we got to jump off cliffs just because the general said so.  But I am going to support him in every way I can (even if I disagree with his policies).

And as a Major you should know this lesson already!

We support our leaders in public, and challenge in private.  I am a member of the CAP team and Gen Pineda is our leader!  If I don't like the how or where he is taking us I will direct those concerns up the right channels.

[ELTHunter]

The only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound.  Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education.  I am reserving judgment on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it.  However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.

I'm shocked Major!  I'm not asking anyone to blindly back anyone.  But just because he may or may not be a cheat is not a reason not to back his policies until you are given new marching orders.

I'm sorry sir that is just not the way it works!

Do you want one of your cadets not backing your choice of cadet commander because he does not like the way he was chosen?

No sir...this is basic follower ship.  I'm not saying we got to jump off cliffs just because the general said so.  But I am going to support him in every way I can (even if I disagree with his policies).

And as a Major you should know this lesson already!

We support our leaders in public, and challenge in private.  I am a member of the CAP team and Gen Pineda is our leader!  If I don't like the how or where he is taking us I will direct those concerns up the right channels.

Nowhere in my post did I say I wouldn't follow his direction and policies as long as he is national commander.

As I said, I'll respect the position no matter who is in it.  I just may not be in the cheerleading section defending him against his accusers.  If this was the first allegation to come along, it might be different, but it's just another in a long line in his relatively short time as commander.  I am a constant cheerleader, defender and supporter of the organization, and I will continue to be.  However, in this instance I'll  reserve judgement on the General until the investigation is complete.

I have seen several posts here slamming Mr. Hayden.  I'll not defend him either, as he obviously has some moral issues of his own.  By his own admission, he lied and cheated, so I don't feel sorry or defend him in any way.  However, IF his allegations are true, his background makes them no less worthly of investigation.

Let me reiterate again.  I will follow Maj. General Pineda and follow his policies as long as he is my National Commander.  I never suggested otherwise.  Please do not lecture me.

[BlackKnight]

[Okay- I'll bite.  How do you become a Pineda All-Star?

You got a CAPID?  You are a member of the All Stars!  He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns.  Until then we should support him and his policies.

Okay, I get it!      In that case I'll call myself a CAP All-Star. 
I follow all legal orders and policies that are in accordance with properly issued regulations, our Constitution, and By-Laws.  In an ideal world that would also mean I should never have any serious disagreements with my chain of command.  But regardless of who's in command, I do my homework and make sure my orders are legit before I run blindly over the cliff. That's my responsibility and duty to my subordinates. 

[Skyray]

I received a back channel communication from Major Munger regarding this thread, and received permission to repost it:

Doug,

Thanks for the support on CAPTALK.

I can read that stuff, but I don't post to it, nor do I want to.

I don't know if you'd like to forward this or not, but if you can, here is my reply:

    On Wednesday, a person identified only as "No Names Please," posted to CAPTALK a missive entitled, "Why won't Skip Munger post my letter to the 'editor' of News of the Force? You can read it for yourself and decide...."

    Well, we would have printed it if this fool had sent it to us properly. He sent it to newsoftheforce@yahoogroups.com , which is an address to which only News of the Force can post. Therefore, we never received it, nor did we see it.  If he had sent it to us at newsoftheforce@aol.com, or to newsoftheforce-owner@yahoogroups.com, e-mail addresses plainly published everywhere, we would have received it. We find it hard to believe that he did not receive a "bounce" message telling him (or her) why the message did not reach us, but this person fails to mention that.

    Additionally, this person sent the message, apparently, on Dec. 24, during which or systems were down due to a cyber-attack (word of which was also posted on CAPTALK). So, even if it had been sent to the correct e-mail address, we still may not have received it, but it wasn't even sent to a correct address.

    And, while CAP members continually chastise us for not naming names, this person posts an anonymous letter on CAPTALK. It must be all right to do that on CAPTALK, but not OK for News of the Force to withhold names to protect the innocent, at least according to some CAP members.

    We ARE a world-wide news organization, and NOTF is published on numerous e-mail hosts, including Yahoo! groups.  And, despite what has been printed on CAPTALK, we do actually have a domain: http://newsoftheforce.org .

    The story about Pineda was first broken by us and was picked up by news media outlets around the world. But it wouldn't have mattered whether it was Pineda, the Secretary of the Army, or the commandant of the Coast Guard -- we still would have broken the story because it is news. But, obviously, some CAP members have no idea who reads our stuff.

    And, they're also wrong in that they have said this story came to us from Ray Hayden. We did not get this from him, but we did conduct a telephone interview with him after we received a copy of his resignation letter from the CAP from another source. We also conducted a telephone interview with the PAO of the Air Command and Staff College before running the story, and the national CAP PAO did not reply to our inquiry.

    In another thread on CAPTALK, "Resignation of Pineda?" you wrote: "[Pineda] has weathered, and even prospered, from much worse scandals than this. General Bergman terminated him as Florida Wing Commander for the vindictive termination of the National PAO of the year. Did he slink away with his tail between his legs?  No, he convinced Bergman to leave him his authority to wear eagles, and proceeded to suck up to the next Wing Commander, whom he convinced to terminate any of his competition for re-appointment as Wing Commander.  He has weathered Cadet Achievement cheating scandals, cadet sexual abuse scandals, cadet physical abuse scandals, and who knows what else, all without there ever being an official investigation by National, as dictated by the regulations."

    We'd say that about covers it. Obviously, a man of such integrity would never have had an underling do his ACSC tests for him.

Skip Munger
News of the Force

[NoNamesPlease]

Gee, Mr. Munger (please don't refer to this person as Major Munger - it degrades the rank as he's not a CAP member and obviously doesn't support the goals of the organization), I never got the message that my email had bounced.

I have to admit that I'm not a subscriber to your gossip column and wasn't familiar with the process of sending in rebuttals.

But I looked in your 'newsgroup' today and saw that you didn't take my letter off of Captalk and post it to your scandel sheet, even though you readily reprint other articles that you are interested in getting out to your readership if it fits your twisted agenda.

Let's see if this post shames you into putting my letter out to your readers - I doubt it will. Prove me wrong.

I remain anonymous, but my letter accurately reflects my thoughts and opinions on this matter, unlike your obvious 'third-party sources' that are in many cases nothing more than a figment of your own imagination as you promote your CAP-hate agenda. Take responsibility for your own opinions - I do.

These red herrings that you are tossing out take nothing away from the facts of the case, and as it sits right now there are unsubstantiated claims from a disgruntled former CAP member who was relieved from his position with just cause (who is also an admitted cheater and liar in his own words to the entire world).

You are pouring gas on this fire in your lame attempt to even the score with someone you have a personal feud with. This is pretty low even for you, Mr. Munger.

I'm not the problem with this issue, and neither are you (even though it appears you relish the limelight). The claim is being investigated in due process, which is something that you obviously refuse to give similar consideration to.

It's nice to see that your petty obsession with knocking down Gen Pineda continues to set your agenda in reporting about CAP. I wish I had the amount of time that you do to waste on chasing windmills.

Please go back to your basement and your computers and make up more garbage about CAP. I'm not going to demean myself by responding to your insults ("this fool", etc.) or you in the future. This will be my last comment on this matter until the IG report is issued, which will obviously clear Gen Pineda.

[Pylon]

I received a back channel communication from Major Munger regarding this thread, and received permission to repost it:

Doug,

Thanks for the support on CAPTALK.

I can read that stuff, but I don't post to it, nor do I want to.

I don't know if you'd like to forward this or not, but if you can, here is my reply:

    On Wednesday, a person identified only as "No Names Please," posted to CAPTALK a missive entitled, "Why won't Skip Munger post my letter to the 'editor' of News of the Force? You can read it for yourself and decide...."

    Well, we would have printed it if this fool had sent it to us properly. He sent it to newsoftheforce@yahoogroups.com , which is an address to which only News of the Force can post. Therefore, we never received it, nor did we see it.  If he had sent it to us at newsoftheforce@aol.com, or to newsoftheforce-owner@yahoogroups.com, e-mail addresses plainly published everywhere, we would have received it. We find it hard to believe that he did not receive a "bounce" message telling him (or her) why the message did not reach us, but this person fails to mention that.

    Additionally, this person sent the message, apparently, on Dec. 24, during which or systems were down due to a cyber-attack (word of which was also posted on CAPTALK). So, even if it had been sent to the correct e-mail address, we still may not have received it, but it wasn't even sent to a correct address.

    And, while CAP members continually chastise us for not naming names, this person posts an anonymous letter on CAPTALK. It must be all right to do that on CAPTALK, but not OK for News of the Force to withhold names to protect the innocent, at least according to some CAP members.

    We ARE a world-wide news organization, and NOTF is published on numerous e-mail hosts, including Yahoo! groups.  And, despite what has been printed on CAPTALK, we do actually have a domain: http://newsoftheforce.org .

    The story about Pineda was first broken by us and was picked up by news media outlets around the world. But it wouldn't have mattered whether it was Pineda, the Secretary of the Army, or the commandant of the Coast Guard -- we still would have broken the story because it is news. But, obviously, some CAP members have no idea who reads our stuff.

    And, they're also wrong in that they have said this story came to us from Ray Hayden. We did not get this from him, but we did conduct a telephone interview with him after we received a copy of his resignation letter from the CAP from another source. We also conducted a telephone interview with the PAO of the Air Command and Staff College before running the story, and the national CAP PAO did not reply to our inquiry.

    In another thread on CAPTALK, "Resignation of Pineda?" you wrote: "[Pineda] has weathered, and even prospered, from much worse scandals than this. General Bergman terminated him as Florida Wing Commander for the vindictive termination of the National PAO of the year. Did he slink away with his tail between his legs?  No, he convinced Bergman to leave him his authority to wear eagles, and proceeded to suck up to the next Wing Commander, whom he convinced to terminate any of his competition for re-appointment as Wing Commander.  He has weathered Cadet Achievement cheating scandals, cadet sexual abuse scandals, cadet physical abuse scandals, and who knows what else, all without there ever being an official investigation by National, as dictated by the regulations."

    We'd say that about covers it. Obviously, a man of such integrity would never have had an underling do his ACSC tests for him.

Skip Munger
News of the Force

Not to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit.   

[Psicorp]

"ISP attacks/cripples/censurs premier news organization, CAP PAO has no comment, film at 11"

[Lancer]

Not to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit.   

Ha Ha!

[Skyray]

Pylon wrote:

Not to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit.  

Not sure which way this is supposed to cut.  CWO Munger, USA (Retired) (that's a real rank, NoName, issued by a real armed service, not some rinky-dink wannabee) formed News of the Force to serve a market that was previously unserved.  I subscribe, and very little of the content has anything to do with the Civil Air Patrol.  It serves a niche market, and frankly is a little conservative and supportive of the current administration for my taste.  But it is quantum leaps more balanced reporting than Fox News.  As for being over their bandwidth, I am happy for them that they are getting that kind of response.

[flyguy06]

Is CWO Munger the guy behind all of this? I remember reading about this guy last year. He fabricated this story about Pineda and some issue that happened in Florida with a cadet. It was all lies and made up. Is this the same guy? OMG