CAP Talk

Well placed my first order with Vanguard last week but have a question. Anybody have anything they can say about the shipping? Ordered on line, card was charged that day but now it's a week later and order has not even shipped yet. One item ordered and item in stock. I like to have things shipped USPS which is the cheapest but get this warning from them when I check that saying they would only be responsible to get item to post office, if I don't get it they don't care. So I had it shipped UPS. Is this the way they do business all the time? I can say from this treatment the next item I order from them it will have to be something I'm forced to have and can only buy it from them. If this is the way they treat our service members too I would hope they close the doors.

They are infamously slow in processing orders. I've always used their USPS option and have been fine. My only main issues have been order processing times that have taken up to a couple weeks before being shipped. If you need something sooner, calling or emailing and asking them to process it right away, seems to work. Not really sure if it does mean anything to them, but I seem to get things faster that way when I'm in a time crunch. While not many of us like Vanguard, they have a monopoly on the CAP market as NHQ won't allow anyone else to sell CAP items. As for non-CAP generic military items, I would just go to a local base if you have one nearby.

Yes....Vanguard shipping is terrible.  HOWEVER; they are now able to use the shipping account that you may have or use for or in your business.  I am using FedEx, and when I spoke to FedEx, they will not only bill me at a reduced rate because of the business account I have, but I got the business account through USAA's benefits section, and they knock off an extra 30%.

So, an order I placed last month for name tags and flight caps cost me $10.86 in shipping, now the same order costs me $4.38

Yay......so now, I am rather happy. 

Never had a problem. I just ordered on 8/31 and it shipped 9/3. I used the "free shipping" and its coming 2nd day air. This is the third order I've had - and they all have come this fast.

They said mine is shipping out of VA - maybe yours is coming from a warehouse somewhere else and its slower?

I ordered supplies for my shadow box, and I guess they waited (which was fine by me, I was in refugee status) for about 2 weeks. I got free shipping due to spending $100, and they ended up overnighting it via UPS...Of course they need high prices, because otherwise they'd go broke on this type of shipping upgrade.

Ordering from them typically consists of placing the order and then looking into a crystal ball to predict when it will arrive. Out of the half dozen times I've bought from them, I think I've only received a tracking number maybe twice. It just kinda shows up somewhere between 1 to 4 weeks later.

Heh - that reminds me!  I've had aviator shirts on back order since February!  (I ordered them elsewhere)

All of the other mail order firms I order from seem to be able to charge the credit card & ship on the same day.

Lots of excuses from this CAP selected vendor.  5 days is too long (charge credit card & not ship) and they may be violating the agreement with the credit card company.  You should ask your credit card company what the policy is and if Vanguard is violating it than file the formal complaint. >:D

Bottom line is that it's a real gamble in getting consistent quality performance out of Vanguard.   Interesting one of our new senior members ordered a new Blue Golf Shirt and got it in 6 days, which isn't bad.   Of Course if he had ordered it with the Hawk Shop (if permitted) he would have had it the very next day. :angel:

RM       

That's why I miss the hock when ordering CAP specific items.  I still use the hock for generic/non "CAP" / "CIVIL AIR PATROL" specific uniform items (better prices too).  Place an order with them and they ship the same day (if the order comes in before 12pm eastern time if I recall).

Any case can't do much about it.

Quote from: Thunder on September 03, 2010, 07:07:30 PM
Never had a problem. I just ordered on 8/31 and it shipped 9/3. I used the "free shipping" and its coming 2nd day air. This is the third order I've had - and they all have come this fast.

They said mine is shipping out of VA - maybe yours is coming from a warehouse somewhere else and its slower?

All orders are shipped from Virginia, per a Vanguard rep I talked to today.

Just one more screwed up thing showing us how much they really care about us. If we have to have something from Vanguard then they should have to give it to us. It says some serve without a uniform, now I see why. They just have better things to do then wait for this outfit to send them out. Guess it's jeans and a tee shirt for everything

Sigh.

It is worth remembering for a moment, that CAP members have never enjoyed free shipping on their orders.  Not when CAP ran the Bookstore, nor when that morphed into CAPMART.  I was always charged shipping for my Supply Depot orders as well.

And the levels of service from Vanguard appear to be as good or better than we enjoyed with CAPMART.  It may be difficult to believe, but we spent almost as much time on the old CAPTALK mailing list complaining about CAPMART prices and service as we did about uniforms.

Vanguard is a "win-win" for CAP and our members.  Instead of losing torrents of corporate dollars (our dues money, BTW) on running a retail operation with about a dozen employees and tons of inventory, we outsourced it to VG after a competative bidding process.  If nothing else, CAP, Inc is ahead tens of thousands of dollars a year that we would otherwise have spent on CAPMART.  Money that is used to fly cadets, award scholarships, buy and maintain vans, etc.

Customer service is always an issue with every business.  And VG genuinely strives to do a good job with us and their other customers.  They are going out of their way to respond to specific CAP problems by contracting for MILSPEC youth-sized BDUs and boots to meet the growing shortages of these products in the USAF and military channels.

THese are good things.

Ned Lee

Hey, Ned is trying to get free shipping!   >:D   ;D

I didn't ask for free shipping, heck they are over charging me for shipping because if I picked the option I would like (USPS) they would not even quarantee my item would make it to me. Now I would not care if they charged me when I placed the order provided the order shipped in a day or two but it's been over a week. It's just not worth it to keep putting up with it. I paid my dues but have never even felt like I got anything worth it back. The cadets deserve better

My shipping experiences were always bad.  Others have reported better.  I had high hopes for them, but after my experiences I went out of my way to avoid them by trying to find things used or from other vendors.

As I mentioned here before, on my first order, they took FOREVER to do anything, then they CANCELED my order, KEPT the money, and never responded to my inquiries.  I had to corner them at the wing conference months later to get my money back in merchandise.  That was the one that annoyed me the most because they kept my money for months, but my experiences following that sucked also.  I simply stopped giving them my money.

Months?

You can call your credit card company and dispute the charge - that gets their attention immediately.

Quote from: Ned on September 04, 2010, 11:46:57 PM

It is worth remembering for a moment, that CAP members have never enjoyed free shipping on their orders. 

Right around the time CAP opened CAPMART, all of my orders were shipped for free, and were shipped via Priority mail which I received within the week. The reason I went to them of course was that Hock took 8 weeks to ship me nametapes that had the wrong thickness embroidery anyway, along with crappy overseas junk that was not like the rest of the items my fellow unit members had. Eventually CAPMart started to charge shipping, but it was still for only the price of the shipment, and Priority mail was a good option.

It also doesn't take 12 employees to run CAPMart. How many orders a month did they receive? At my job I was able to maintain/add inventory to our Online store while shipping out about 1000 orders per month. All within a 35-40 hour work week alone. We have about 100 items, but even with 10 times that volume, an inventory program along with maybe 2-3 employees to maintain everything is all it would take. I find it hard to believe that with a national membership of 58,000 CAPMart would get more than 1000 orders a month anyway.

The issue with guaranteeing orders on Priority mail is understandable but stupid for Vanguard. Understandable, because with UPS the package is insured, and if it doesn't make it, UPS will pay up and Vanguard doesn't loose any money. Stupid, because if you ever sold anything anywhere online these days, the shipper is responsible for the package until the tracking shows the item as delivered. For a company as big as Vanguard, there wouldn't be that big of a loss if they had to reship a small order (the only one's that make sense via USPS) in order to keep a customer happy. But then again, they don't have that big of a customer pool when it comes to CAP, and we don't have any alternatives either way.

Like I said earlier, they'd be a lot more profitable if they didn't sit on free shipping orders for two weeks, and ship them next day air UPS after all that time.

I ordered black velcro from Scamguard as part of a larger order. By mistake I ordered the hook portion instead of the loop portion. I didn't realize that they sold them separately. I called to try to get the loop portion instead and was told..."you can send the hook portion back but there will be a $.75 restocking charge. The loop is a $1.50 and it will be $7.95 shipping and handling." Had to bite my tongue to keep from telling them what to do with that. Ended up getting a box that had both at the Scott AFB BX for $2.50. Will not use Scamguard again unless I can get what I need nowhere else. Sorry, Ned, but they have anti-monopoly laws for business for a reason. I have a problem with the rebate program because to me this rebate seems to close to "kickback". Whether something is legal or not but it has the stink of impropriety, we should NOT allow it. Competition is good!

I've had mixed results with Vanguard.  Just recently I needed an Air Force item (not CAP  specific) and I needed it within a week.  I called the California store, they said it could ship by regular UPS and I would have it within the time frame.  (Note: the California store is 90 minutes from my home).  When it didn't arrive I called and was told that "orders are not processed for  3-5 business days unless you want to pay extra for special handling and shipping would be another 5 days "( remember how far away I said I was!!!)  That  is 10 business days for an in stock item to be shipped less than 100 miles!  Of course I could have paid about $8 for special handling and $20 for overnight shipping for a $25 item. Double the cost of the item.

Sounds like government accounting to me.

My experiences have been mixed, usually good, with a little bit of bad thrown in. The last order I had was shipped incomplete due to back order, called asked when they would get the items in, they didn't know. I needed the items for the the NB and let them know that. They told me that they would not be able to ship it to me on time, but they would hand carry it to me in San Diego. All of this happened a month out from the NB.

Really bad service followed by a pretty good gesture of service.

Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:13:10 AM
  Sorry, Ned, but they have anti-monopoly laws for business for a reason. I have a problem with the rebate program because to me this rebate seems to close to "kickback". Whether something is legal or not but it has the stink of impropriety, we should NOT allow it. Competition is good!

This has nothing to do with "monopolies" and everything to do with CAP's own intellectual property and providing service to ALL of our members.

1)  No one is restricted from selling anything that doesn't have "Civil Air Patrol" (or our logos, seal, etc) on it.  Folks can compete all they want to supply BDUs, boots, and cadet major insignia.  But we own our own trademarks, just like Ford, IBM, and the Boy Scouts.  This is no different than Kia discovering they can make cars in Korea cheaper than Ford can make them here, but slapping Ford labels on them and selling them here.  Ford would be . . . ticked off.

If you wrote a book, would it be OK for someone else to photocopy it and sell it for slightly less than you can?

A little closer to home, try buying official Boy Scout insignia, uniforms, or logowear from anyone other than a licensed merchandiser.  Why? Because BSA, Inc wants to control quality and they also receive licensing fees (what you are calling a "kickback").   This practice is the norm, not the exception.

2)  Part of the contract requires that VG provide our entire range of unique set of badges and insignia for our members.  I don't have a good figure for that, but my WAG is that is a couple of hundred unique items, counting ribbons, buttons, badges, etc.  Letting competitors siphon off the high volume items like embroidered CAP tapes for BDUs reduces the ability of VG to sell low-demand items like Master CDI badges anything approaching a reasonable price. That helps fulfill a stewardship requirement for ALL our members.

Again, these kind of agreements are the norm, and serve out members well by ensuring that our full insignia line is available for all our members.

There are no black helicopters here.

But CAP needs to be more flexible with items that Scamguard does not market such as challenge coins, commemorative items, and the like. I can understand CAP not wanting their logo put on lets say...a pair of frilly underwear or a t shirt with a swastika on it..but this obsession with shutting down everyone but Scamguard that diegns to put CAP or a triangle and prop on a coffee mug is going too far. There needs to be a clause that as long as the item is sold is legal and tasteful and not available from Scamguard it is permissible. The NLO should review items before sending out the automatic c &d letter. I don't see black helicopters either but I am not an apologist for NHQ either.

Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 01:23:17 PM
But CAP needs to be more flexible with items that Scamguard does not market such as challenge coins, commemorative items, and the like. I can understand CAP not wanting their logo put on lets say...a pair of frilly underwear or a t shirt with a swastika on it..but this obsession with shutting down everyone but Scamguard that diegns to put CAP or a triangle and prop on a coffee mug is going too far. There needs to be a clause that as long as the item is sold is legal and tasteful and not available from Scamguard it is permissible. The NLO should review items before sending out the automatic c &d letter. I don't see black helicopters either but I am not an apologist for NHQ either.

Exactly.  If Vanguard doesn't offer something, I think that we should be able to get it from another source - fabric strip nametapes included.  If I want a special shape challenge coin and I can't get that from Vanguard, I think that I should be able to get that challenge coin from a source that offers it.

So technically, are we not allowed to get squadron patches that include the seal or other CAP markings from any vendor but ?Vanguard? Does Vanguard even do patches?

You read allot of threads on here about how may people are not wearing the uniforms right for one reason or another. Now I'm thinking it's not so much that people are wearing it wrong as much as they can't get the right stuff or they just don't want to order it from Vanguard. I understand we don't generate allot of orders for them but with the way they treat us I think there are allot of stuff people might order but they just don't want the hassle. If I had to order all the uniform items from them I'm thinking I could be dead 5 years before everything would ship I needed.  This all goes to help show how little they appreciate what we do as volunteers.

^ Sorry, I have an issue with every sentence in that post...

Quote from: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 02:12:01 PMSo technically, are we not allowed to get squadron patches that include the seal or other CAP markings from any vendor but ?Vanguard? Does Vanguard even do patches?

If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC. There's really no point in putting other CAP things on the patch, the patch is about the unit specifically, not CAP in general.

I wish that I could get items made that didn't look dreadful like these do:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_415

You just made me want to buy the PT gear, sir.

The only thing I've ever seen I *wanted* as opposed to needed.

Okay, maybe the shirt. The shorts? I can make them with my mom's screen printing equipment. ;D

P.S. About the Squadron Patches question I asked- I randomly searched about 15 pages of the Best Of Squadron Patches thread- I saw 15 patches which included CAP Insignia which is banned from non-Vanguard items, and only about 5 that were bare of C&D-letter causing symbols.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 04:11:14 PM
If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC.

I would never imagine asking Vanguard for permission.... Typo?

Honestly, in this era of generally "poor customer service" I have had relatively good service from Vanguard Industries.  I am used to getting orders where it takes up to two weeks to get items.  Most other places have slip-ups and backorders.

I think our addiction to the speed of e-mail is making forget the days of mail order when these issues were common place.

I would, however, like to be able to have CAP monikered matierals made locally.

Quote from: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 05:52:54 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 04:11:14 PM
If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC.

I would never imagine asking Vanguard for permission.... Typo?

No. It's been posted here before that anything with "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or any CAP specific elements within the design require Vanguard permission to have them made someplace else. No, I don't have references, but I'm sure someone here will pop in with it. Vanguard has gone after people that have made anything that they consider within their contract.

Easiest way around that is not to include CAP elements within the patch. Things like triangles with prop, triangle within a circle (although I'm not certain Vanguard would have any say on those), and anything with the words "CIVIL AIR PATROL".

Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 06:51:59 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

Unit patches are designed to be used with a uniform. It's an additional information item, not a rehash of the uniform already.

If you're putting it on a T-shirt, write "Civil Air Patrol" underneath the emblem. I can see the emblem being used for a ballcap, but I don't see the point of making it anything other than a uniform item. Spending money like that on fancy T-shirts and ballcaps doesn't seem like a particularly wise way to spend money that could be used on other things.

My view of this is based on military background. None of our squadron hats added "Air Force" as an independent script (as opposed to something that said "Air Force XXXXX Command"). The Wing or Group I was assigned to wasn't rehashed on our unit patch. The duplication is unneeded and unnecessary. Keep the patches clean and about the unit.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 07:27:47 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 06:51:59 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

Unit patches are designed to be used with a uniform. It's an additional information item, not a rehash of the uniform already.

If you're putting it on a T-shirt, write "Civil Air Patrol" underneath the emblem. I can see the emblem being used for a ballcap, but I don't see the point of making it anything other than a uniform item. Spending money like that on fancy T-shirts and ballcaps doesn't seem like a particularly wise way to spend money that could be used on other things.

My view of this is based on military background. None of our squadron hats added "Air Force" as an independent script (as opposed to something that said "Air Force XXXXX Command"). The Wing or Group I was assigned to wasn't rehashed on our unit patch. The duplication is unneeded and unnecessary. Keep the patches clean and about the unit.

Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PM
Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

I don't agree with writing "Civil Air Patrol" or incorporating the same CAP logos, etc on a squadron patch.  The branch tape says, "Civil Air Patrol" many wing patches say "Civil Air Patrol," etc.  How many times do you need to write or express the same thing on a uniform?

As a cadet, our squadron patch had a Cessna, flying over the local landscape (identifiable landmarks included).  My next unit shared some of the patch details with the base it was at.  The next one included imagery from the squadron's time chasing subs.  None of them said "Civil Air Patrol" because it was already written all over our uniforms.  To do it again is redundant and unnecessary.

Quote from: JC004 on September 06, 2010, 05:20:26 PM
I wish that I could get items made that didn't look dreadful like these do:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_415

No kidding, that has been a major gripe of mine for a long time. I'd wear a non-uniform CAP shirt to work or around town if I could get one that didn't look like it was designed by a third grader.

I have however resorted to making my own CAP branded toys for my own personal use (sssh, don't tell the lawyers at Vanguard)

(http://www.imgftw.net/img/221229052.jpg)

Who wouldn't want a CAP laser engraved iPhone case? ;)

Get me one for the Droid X and I'll buy it. :)

The company in question that made that for me does not currently have a cover for the Droid X, but they could probably come up with something if you contact them. www.coveroo.com

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 06, 2010, 08:25:28 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PM
Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

I don't agree with writing "Civil Air Patrol" or incorporating the same CAP logos, etc on a squadron patch.  The branch tape says, "Civil Air Patrol" many wing patches say "Civil Air Patrol," etc.  How many times do you need to write or express the same thing on a uniform?

As a cadet, our squadron patch had a Cessna, flying over the local landscape (identifiable landmarks included).  My next unit shared some of the patch details with the base it was at.  The next one included imagery from the squadron's time chasing subs.  None of them said "Civil Air Patrol" because it was already written all over our uniforms.  To do it again is redundant and unnecessary.

Opinion noted...

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PMPatch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.

That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of indentifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).

Radical idea incoming!

The patch is an identifier for both the Civil Air Patrol and her respective members world-wide.

Anyone familiar with CAP will recognize the words Composite, Cadet or Senior Squadron; even SER-GA-506 says something to a member. So the fellow CAP member recognizes these key markers in whatever form.

Include a landmark, a local name, an identifying and unique area attraction/piece of history, and now the General Public^TM knows you're "from round these here parts!"
This local community tie gets the GP^TM citizen interested/asking questions.

At this point you explain CAP, what it is and does, and how it is local and you do NOT deploy nor recruit their children/themselves for the military.

Without nary a Prop-In-Triangle, the scourge-of-the-earth Triangle Thingy, or the words CAP, Civil Air Patrol, or variants thereof, you have successfully accomplished a dual mission.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2010, 12:29:21 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PMPatch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.

That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of indentifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).

Can't agree, based on the situation...since we hardly ever see folks from the nearest CAP units, our patch is ours and represents what we go by.

The new unit we are forming will have its own as well.  Folks have already asked us that it will be.  It's not just for uniform useage anymore.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2010, 12:29:21 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PMPatch is going to be used as more than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.

That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of identifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).

I agree with Hawk.

None of the Army patches (and the Army's 81st IN Div originated the patch concept in WWI) I have ever worn (and there have been many) indicated US Army anywhere on them. My favorite (the only one I have framed) was for A Co. 3/501st AV Regt. It had our mascot, a tiger [because somewhere in the distant past, the unit (along with about 100 others) took the Flying Tigers moniker], the motto "Tiger Pride", the unit designation along with a rocker indicating we were an AVIM, and "Tiger 77", my call-sign. The fact that it was worn on a flight suit with "US Army" on the leather name tag was enough to let folks know that I am a Soldier.

Perhaps it is arrogance, but I have never had a shirt made with a unit patch where we felt it necessary to spell out for the general public that we were part of the US Army. It could be that as a Fortune 3 company, the Army enjoys fairly widespread "brand" recognition. Or, it could be that it just isn't necessary.

On the other hand, we also don't have the Triangle-thingy!

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 12:53:51 AMCan't agree, based on the situation...since we hardly ever see folks from the nearest CAP units, our patch is ours and represents what we go by.

Yes, it does represent you. That's the purpose.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 12:53:51 AMIt's not just for uniform useage anymore.

And therein lies a problem. This is one of those things where people with no military experience don't consider it a big deal, because they don't understand it. The unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.

It's the same problem as some non-prior service members not understanding why your shirt is supposed to be tucked in(tight), your shoes shined, your gigline straight. It's a matter of professionalism. There are little things that make the difference. Not wearing uniform items with your civilian clothes is one of those things.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2010, 01:29:05 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 12:53:51 AMIt's not just for uniform useage anymore.

And therein lies a problem. This is one of those things where people with no military experience don't consider it a big deal, because they don't understand it. The unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.

Do you mean the patch, or the symbols?
For example, the Screaming Eagle is used on shirt colors not even authorized for Army uniform wear. I know a Drill Sergeant whose BCT classes had shirts made- unit crest on the front, everyone's name on the back.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2010, 01:29:05 AMThe unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.

I'm not too sure that he meant wearing the patch on civilian attire.  My thought was in the sense of letterhead, websites, PT clothes, balsa wood airplanes, Frisbees, etc.  In a branding sense, it would make sense to show your association.

However, if you visit, say, the first infantry division website, there is no mention of "US ARMY" on it anywhere.

CAP uses the squadron patch as a branding method, as opposed to a combat unit identifier.

Wow...back to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" issue.  Hawk, I am dissapointed.  But take this away, anyone coming from the US Military trying to apply that culture to their CAP unit is in for a rude awakening and may do more harm than good to a local program.

I am neither prepared nor willing to argue the point of the patch here. 

All I will say is that, in the area I live, the local International Airport made a rather large cake out of our unit moniker (same logo as our patch), it is identified with the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron and has a tri-prop on the character dipicted in the patch.

Hawk, you aren't gonna try to apply US ARMY conventions to CAP, were you not arguing against the practice on another thread?

Plain and simple, if we design a patch and it is approved by WING it matters little if it has CAP on it or not. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 03:39:34 AM
Wow...back to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" issue.  Hawk, I am dissapointed.  But take this away, anyone coming from the US Military trying to apply that culture to their CAP unit is in for a rude awakening and may do more harm than good to a local program.

CAP utilizes a paramilitary chain of command, as well as many of it's reasonings. As to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" statement, if I thought you could never understand then why would I try to explain it to you? I respect your intelligence to the point that I would try. You don't understand because it hasn't been explained to you, so I'm explaining.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 03:39:34 AMAll I will say is that, in the area I live, the local International Airport made a rather large cake out of our unit moniker (same logo as our patch), it is identified with the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron and has a tri-prop on the character dipicted in the patch.

Who partook of the cake? Was it the public in general? Or was it the members of your unit? The environment is important. Some people would argue that it's inappropriate, personally, I don't see an issue.

The point of the tri-prop isn't really whether or not it's on the cake. It's whether or not it's included in the unit's patch. Now, it's not forbidden in any way, shape or form; the issue is whether or not it's needed as part of the insignia. To me, it's pointless. You already know that the person is a CAP member by virtue of their uniform. Things can be reiterated too much, to the point that it annoys people.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 03:39:34 AMHawk, you aren't gonna try to apply US ARMY conventions to CAP, were you not arguing against the practice on another thread?

I'm not certain what you're referring too. The concept of not putting uniform related items on civilian clothing is actually spelled out in AFI 36-2903 (Air Force Uniform Instruction). So it's not an Army concept.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 03:39:34 AMPlain and simple, if we design a patch and it is approved by WING it matters little if it has CAP on it or not.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't need it. It may be my personal opinion, but it mirrors that of others. I'm just the one saying it. To me, it's a matter or practicality. Why duplicate something?

Hawk, believe me I know "what's what," and because of that, I know the CAP is only superficially like the US Military.  Most units flying are made up of "golf-shirters" that want to serve and do so with out all the trappings of military pomp, circumstance and all that goes with that. 

In that regard, taking the inconsistancies that exist in "culture" from unit to unit (some being almost a pre-WWII like military culture and on the other end being a flying club) the nature of CAP culture system wide is not in line with procedures and customs of the US Military.  And, I will fo as far as saying, that when those cultures come into CAP...like calling uniforms by "class" or respecting some wear custom, they are looked on as being "incorrect."

This all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 06:05:23 PMThis all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.

I agree that CAP has developed its own nuances, and I don't have any issue with it. There are things that paralell, and the paralells should remain paralell, not excessively divergent. Any true paralells that occur, however, should paralell the Air Force not other branches. This i why I have issue with using Army/Marine Corps terminology and behaviour in CAP. It doesn't paralell, so it shouldn't be practiced.

And I definitely don't agree with requiring compliance with unrelated organizations.

Amazing how we ended up here from a question about shipping, isn't it?

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2010, 08:20:42 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2010, 06:05:23 PMThis all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.

I agree that CAP has developed its own nuances, and I don't have any issue with it. There are things that paralell, and the paralells should remain paralell, not excessively divergent. Any true paralells that occur, however, should paralell the Air Force not other branches. This i why I have issue with using Army/Marine Corps terminology and behaviour in CAP. It doesn't paralell, so it shouldn't be practiced.

And I definitely don't agree with requiring compliance with unrelated organizations.

Amazing how we ended up here from a question about shipping, isn't it?

Some call it drift, but it is the nature of most discussions.

We have a new member at our squadron and today he asked a question about getting uniforms, and virtually every senior member had their own vanguard story to tell.  Everything from wrong orders to shipping that took ages. @_@  Most of the members also mentioned the Hock Shop and how they miss it selling CAP items. 

Thats my point it sure seems like we are a pain in Vanguards side so to speak. It's good to get good items but how long do we have to wait? Vanguard needs to hear what we are saying and wake up. Since I think if I want new uniforms like the dress stuff I would have to order it from vanguard I'm think you will never see me in that dress.

Wanted to add this will be my one and only Vanguard story!!

Ordered a pair of epaulets on Tuesday, today is Friday and item is still "Processing".

Hock shop would of had it in the mail the next day....

Quote from: spacecommand on September 10, 2010, 09:00:00 PM
Ordered a pair of epaulets on Tuesday, today is Friday and item is still "Processing".

Hock shop would of had it in the mail the next day....

I had twice received shipment from Vanguard while their website still says my order was in "Processing".

Is it just me or what. But it seems to me that with all the criticism that Scamguard seems to be getting from CAP members, a company should react in some way to improve their image rather than running the same old flags up the pole. Granted...with 60,000 some odd members we are just seeing a few anecdotal accounts here... some good and some bad. I can't believe that with all the negativity floating around about them that there's not some truth to it. A company like this should serve their customers not dictate to them.

Well, FWIW, I met with management folks during the NB and found them to be extremely concerned about Service and responsive to our needs. 

They were working with CP to establish a reliable source for BDUs and black combat boots - especially in smaller (cadet) sizes - for the indefinite period while we are waiting for ABUs.  They are contracting with a manufacturer and the prices should be good for us. We should have sample sets at NHQ to review quality soon.

The point is we talked, they listened and worked hard to meet our needs.

Ned Lee

Quote from: Ned on September 11, 2010, 03:32:07 AM
Well, FWIW, I met with management folks during the NB and found them to be extremely concerned about Service and responsive to our needs. 

They were working with CP to establish a reliable source for BDUs and black combat boots - especially in smaller (cadet) sizes - for the indefinite period while we are waiting for ABUs.  They are contracting with a manufacturer and the prices should be good for us. We should have sample sets at NHQ to review quality soon.

The point is we talked, they listened and worked hard to meet our needs.

Ned Lee

Not sure what "extremely concerned & responsiveness to our needs" (by Vanguard) means  -- Likely just a lot of marketing puff with no action plan.  (perhaps Nat Hq should run a survey on it's website asking for members input on experiences with Vanguard or just ask for email comments).  Seriously 3+ weeks to get name plate tags/tapes >:(  Five days just to process a "stock" order.  >:( etc, etc.  (and they charge your credit card right when the order is placed)  That's what happens  with these sweatheart one source deals!!!   Also please note that  CAP's outside contractor for plastic ID cards is taking greater than 3 weeks to get those ID cards out to new members >:( (some military bases will not accept temp printed paper ID cards for entry).   Seems to me it real easy to put in performance standards for contractors to meet as far as processing times.  Apparently CAP isn't interested in that or agreed to the standards as on the (Vanguard) website.   So many members that need name tags/tapes probably are going to look at other sources for better service (1 week or less).

Interestingly in our squadron the smaller cadets don't seem to have a problem with purchasing smaller size BDU's and boots.  Perhaps locally we've got good sources.  I'll ask them.  I know that "Army Barracks" has seven locations in New England (one close to us), BUT recently closed their mail order division, so a visit to a store is required.  I'm pretty sure that's where the smaller cadets got their uniforms/boots.  There's also another Uniform shop just outside the base.   There would be good demand in this area to stock smaller sizes because the Young Marines program is also very active in our area (100+ youngesters) and they take even younger kids into the program.

Before we get into any long term contracts on uniforms/boots, perhaps now is the time to make a decision on transitioning to Blue BDU's for everyone in CAP.   CAP is a non combat organization and we don't need to hide from anyone.  ACU's, BDU's etc, are/were for military and SWAT type para military forces.   Even with CAP march to "brand identity" having the same field uniform color would be a big step in the right direction :angel:
RM         

I just placed an order, 5 seconds ago.  We'll conduct a test.

The order contained 15 separate line items of multiple quantities. It contains awards, ribbon racks, clothing items and novelty items (a bit from every section). The order was enough to qualify for the free shipping, with a special request to ship UPS or USPS, because FedEX can't find my house (new subdivision, I don't have a valid address).

So, it is 11SEP10 at 1:20 CST, a Saturday.  I'll chime back in when my order arrives.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 11, 2010, 05:57:46 PMBefore we get into any long term contracts on uniforms/boots, perhaps now is the time to make a decision on transitioning to Blue BDU's for everyone in CAP.   CAP is a non combat organization and we don't need to hide from anyone.  ACU's, BDU's etc, are/were for military and SWAT type para military forces.   Even with CAP march to "brand identity" having the same field uniform color would be a big step in the right direction :angel:
RM       

That same tired "we're not combatants" arguement didn't fly in the 80's when we transitioned to BDU's from Fatigues.
So what makes you think it's going to work now?

Quote from: Ned on September 11, 2010, 03:32:07 AM
Well, FWIW, I met with management folks during the NB and found them to be extremely concerned about Service and responsive to our needs. 

They were working with CP to establish a reliable source for BDUs and black combat boots - especially in smaller (cadet) sizes - for the indefinite period while we are waiting for ABUs.  They are contracting with a manufacturer and the prices should be good for us. We should have sample sets at NHQ to review quality soon.

The point is we talked, they listened and worked hard to meet our needs.

Ned Lee

Ned, what they did is blow sunshine up your Six. They have an exclusive contract to sell CAP related stuff to the members. They've been measured by varying levels of FAIL by all accounts. As long as they are the only game in town there is ZERO motivation for them to provide better service.

The whole exclusive vendor license strikes a chord with me, as the only place I was able to get golf shirts in 4XL that I wear was The Hock and only the screen-printed shirts. I'd give up a kidney for 3 of the embroidered shirts and a couple 4XL aviators but the largest size Vanguard sells is 3XL and after a few washings that's even smaller. I talked to the Vanguard folks about this at the NCR conference last October and got blank stares.

I'd sure like to see just how much money Vanguard's kicked back to CAP and where it went, especially if any of it was supposed to roll down to the Wings or NCSA's.

   

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 11, 2010, 06:21:18 PMSo, it is 11SEP10 at 1:20 CST, a Saturday.  I'll chime back in when my order arrives.

Nothing will happen until Monday. They don't process orders over the weekend.

They don't seem to process orders during regular weekdays either @_@.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 11, 2010, 05:57:46 PM
Not sure what "extremely concerned & responsiveness to our needs" (by Vanguard) means

I'm sorry, my bad for not communicating clearly. 

What I meant was VG is "extremely concerned and responsive to our needs."

Quote[snipped compllaints about service comparable to what the Bookstore and CAPMART proviced]  That's what happens  with these sweatheart one source deals!!!   

True enough.  We get service pretty much like we have always had.  Plus we gain thousands of dollars for our members.  "Win - Win!"

QuoteSeems to me it real easy to put in performance standards for contractors to meet as far as processing times.

Good idea.  Feel free to mention it to your wing commander for inclusion in the next competative bidding cycle.

QuoteThere would be good demand in this area to stock smaller sizes because the Young Marines program is also very active in our area (100+ youngesters) and they take even younger kids into the program.

Oddly enough I had the CEO of the Young Marines with me while discussing the matter with the VG executives.  Great minds think alike.

QuoteBefore we get into any long term contracts on uniforms/boots, (. . .)

Again, I did not express myself clearly.  CAP is not a party to these contracts.  VG is contracting with suppliers.

Quoteperhaps now is the time to make a decision on transitioning to Blue BDU's for everyone in CAP. 

The decision has already been made, at least for the CP.  For over 60 years, CP participants and leaders who meet age/height/weight standards have worn the uniform of the USAF with distinctive CAP insignia.

No change is anticipated to this highly successful policy.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma
As long as they are the only game in town there is ZERO motivation for them to provide better service.

Unless, of course, they would like to have the contract renewed.

Which would only happen after a competative process.

QuoteI'd sure like to see just how much money Vanguard's kicked back to CAP and where it went, especially if any of it was supposed to roll down to the Wings or NCSA's.

Fair question.  Have you bothered to ask your wing commander?  The information is out there.  If you really can't get it through channels, I have it somewhere and would be happy to put it out there.  It isn't a secret and represents a terrific resource.

Ned Lee

Quote from: Ned on September 12, 2010, 05:23:57 AMTrue enough.  We get service pretty much like we have always had.  Plus we gain thousands of dollars for our members.  "Win - Win!"

More money for our members.. *From* our members. Why not leave the money with the members in the first place? If they raised dues by a couple dollars they would probably get the same amount and the cost to everyone would be negligible. Even CAPBookMart was buying VG stuff previously. Who else makes this stuff?

Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2010, 08:29:05 AM

Quote from: Ned on September 12, 2010, 05:23:57 AMTrue enough.  We get service pretty much like we have always had.  Plus we gain thousands of dollars for our members.  "Win - Win!"

More money for our members.. *From* our members. Why not leave the money with the members in the first place? If they raised dues by a couple dollars they would probably get the same amount and the cost to everyone would be negligible. Even CAPBookMart was buying VG stuff previously. Who else makes this stuff?

There are sources.  But for obvious reasons nobody will mention them here.

Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2010, 08:29:05 AM
More money for our members.. *From* our members. Why not leave the money with the members in the first place?

If CAP ended the small licensing fee today, your theory is that Vanguard would immediately "slash" prices by 6%?

Or that by opening the market to thousands of military insignia manufacturers worldwide,   normal capitalistic market forces would inevitably produce a frenzy of competition for the opportunity to sell perhaps two dozen Master CDI badges a year at cutthrout prices?

OK, then.

Dis I read somewhere the majority of the funds from Vanguard went to Hawk Mountain?

Quote from: BillB on September 12, 2010, 04:04:35 PM
Dis I read somewhere the majority of the funds from Vanguard went to Hawk Mountain?

It was some letter sent out by NHQ, said funds were installing hot showers at Hawk and funding NBB.

If Vanguard "stipends," or whatever that are called, are going to go to HAWK MOUNTAIN, I would much rather they be full ride (including travel) scholarships for cadets, much like mine, who are of limited means and might otherwise never have the opportunity to go to a National Activity.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 12, 2010, 05:16:50 PM
If Vanguard "stipends," or whatever that are called, are going to go to HAWK MOUNTAIN, I would much rather they be full ride (including travel) scholarships for cadets, much like mine, who are of limited means and might otherwise never have the opportunity to go to a National Activity.

According to the stuff National put out, the money went to facilities construction and maintenance at both Hawk Mountain and the Blue Beret compound at Oshkosh.

Quote from: PHall on September 12, 2010, 06:15:36 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 12, 2010, 05:16:50 PM
If Vanguard "stipends," or whatever that are called, are going to go to HAWK MOUNTAIN, I would much rather they be full ride (including travel) scholarships for cadets, much like mine, who are of limited means and might otherwise never have the opportunity to go to a National Activity.

According to the stuff National put out, the money went to facilities construction and maintenance at both Hawk Mountain and the Blue Beret compound at Oshkosh.

Doesn't do much for the cadets of South Texas who spend just as much on CAP insignia et al than everyone else or the average cadet from anywhere that never gets to wear a "Blue Beret" or "Orange Helmet."

My point is, if were are going to use these funds for National Activities, there had better well be some of them South of the Mason-Dixon line, in the Southwest, in TEXAS and on the Pacific Coast.

I still say that this money should be available to units at each level in the form of small grants for specific projects - improving a building, buying supplies for somesuchthing, etc.  NHQ should take applications on a rolling basis and decide, say, every quarter. 

We need a nice NB member to come along and make this an agenda item.

Quote from: PHall on September 12, 2010, 06:15:36 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 12, 2010, 05:16:50 PM
If Vanguard "stipends," or whatever that are called, are going to go to HAWK MOUNTAIN, I would much rather they be full ride (including travel) scholarships for cadets, much like mine, who are of limited means and might otherwise never have the opportunity to go to a National Activity.

According to the stuff National put out, the money went to facilities construction and maintenance at both Hawk Mountain and the Blue Beret compound at Oshkosh.

They also went to support construction and maintenance work at NESA's Camp Atterbury site. I have seen the site and the work done has been impressive. It will truly be a "Center of Excellence" when it is is finished.

The funds are going to support CAP national Operations Training and cadet activites for the benefit of all of our members.

How much of the funding from Vanguard went to SER?  SWR?  PCR?  RMR?  NER? Why does it go to three projects that have limited attendance due to travel expenses?  And aren't the areas where funding was made for cadet activities? What about funding for senior training?

Is this why they charge your card just as soon as we order something? Does this money then go right out to fund CAP stuff? Why do I think they collect funds for orders for a long time and then maybe once a year hand out a little bit of it to try and make NHQ happy. Think of the funds we might get if they didn't screw with us on every order? It doesn't seem like we are only hearing about the bad stories and these are only a small percent of the orders CAP has with them. It sounds like 90% of the orders we places get thrown in a hat and when they get bored to death or somebody important gets wind of it they fill them. This sounds to me like something that has gone on way to long so nobody with enough say cares how bad they are so nothing is going to change. If folks find other places to get the items they need I say more power to them.
And I still don't see why we need camo uniforms. There are too many wearing camo even in the real military that shouldn't do it. How many times do we see men and women in the Army wearing camo when a dress uniform would so much better. I see so many awards ceremonies when I would think they should be proud and dress in something more fitting then a utility uniform. BDU's are for work uniforms when they are going to get their hands dirty not everyday meetings. I know others are going to reply with what they think but why are they not proud of their dress uniforms?

Will we see a nice 6% slash in prices? Heck no.

But, for a while there we were paying more by ordering under the "CAP" tab. The prices have equalized since that original, separate, and horrid web site was done away with.

But instead of 6%, we had a bit more flexibility. They couldn't run their own store, and I don't believe, not even for a second, that it was because of the Hock, Nametapes, Flightbadge, et al, all selling stuff.

Certainly not because the latter namesakes were certainly happy selling stuff on their own. Granted, they had a much larger audience for their other items.

Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2010, 09:53:03 PM
...
But, for a while there we were paying more by ordering under the "CAP" tab.
...

Uh yeah.  I made a comparison chart for the things like belts, buckles, and various insignia that had higher prices for CAP.  I don't remember if I posted it on CAPTalk or not.  I think that I did.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 12, 2010, 09:00:38 PM.
And I still don't see why we need camo uniforms. There are too many wearing camo even in the real military that shouldn't do it. How many times do we see men and women in the Army wearing camo when a dress uniform would so much better. I see so many awards ceremonies when I would think they should be proud and dress in something more fitting then a utility uniform. BDU's are for work uniforms when they are going to get their hands dirty not everyday meetings. I know others are going to reply with what they think but why are they not proud of their dress uniforms?

FWIW, I don't see the problem with wearing a utility uniform so long as it looks good, IE pressed, cleaned, no tears, and boots shined if they're not rough out. Then again, if it's a banquet, then yes, I agree they should wear dress uniforms.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 12, 2010, 09:00:38 PM
Does this money then go right out to fund CAP stuff? Why do I think they collect funds for orders for a long time and then maybe once a year hand out a little bit of it to try and make NHQ happy.

Because that is the contract they signed with CAP.  It is also good accounting practice.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 12, 2010, 09:00:38 PM
Think of the funds we might get if they didn't screw with us on every order? It doesn't seem like we are only hearing about the bad stories and these are only a small percent of the orders CAP has with them. It sounds like 90% of the orders we places get thrown in a hat and when they get bored to death or somebody important gets wind of it they fill them. This sounds to me like something that has gone on way to long so nobody with enough say cares how bad they are so nothing is going to change. If folks find other places to get the items they need I say more power to them.

You are hearing about the few people who have had an issue.  Business 101 tells you that generally only dissatisfied customers make noise.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 12, 2010, 09:00:38 PM
And I still don't see why we need camo uniforms. There are too many wearing camo even in the real military that shouldn't do it. How many times do we see men and women in the Army wearing camo when a dress uniform would so much better. I see so many awards ceremonies when I would think they should be proud and dress in something more fitting then a utility uniform. BDU's are for work uniforms when they are going to get their hands dirty not everyday meetings. I know others are going to reply with what they think but why are they not proud of their dress uniforms?

Which uniforms we are authorized or prescribed to wear has absolutely nothing to do with VG - they sell what they are told to sell.
The majority of CAP members, especially the twice-a-month-or-less crowd, has little to no use for a non-operational uniform, so unless CAP starts issuing the clothes, don't expect people to be forking over literally hundreds of dollars for uniform they will rarely, if ever, wear.

Want to have some fun?  Invite your local reservist, guardsman, or similar to a formal function that requires a jacket.   Odds are better than good that they don't have one that fits, especially if they are enlisted, and unless they work in a job that got hit with "blues Monday", they may not even have blues.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 11, 2010, 06:21:18 PM
I just placed an order, 5 seconds ago.  We'll conduct a test.

The order contained 15 separate line items of multiple quantities. It contains awards, ribbon racks, clothing items and novelty items (a bit from every section). The order was enough to qualify for the free shipping, with a special request to ship UPS or USPS, because FedEX can't find my house (new subdivision, I don't have a valid address).

So, it is 11SEP10 at 1:20 CST, a Saturday.  I'll chime back in when my order arrives.

I just received my shipping notice.  Shipped UPS, expected delivery of Wednesday.

I ordered about $100 in uniform items including a nameplate requiring engraving and it shipped today. Not bad.

They must be reading this. Google Alerts rock. :)

Quote from: Ned on September 12, 2010, 05:23:57 AM

QuoteI'd sure like to see just how much money Vanguard's kicked back to CAP and where it went, especially if any of it was supposed to roll down to the Wings or NCSA's.

Fair question.  Have you bothered to ask your wing commander? 

Ned Lee

Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 05:10:43 PM

Quote from: BillB on September 12, 2010, 04:04:35 PM
Dis I read somewhere the majority of the funds from Vanguard went to Hawk Mountain?

It was some letter sent out by NHQ, said funds were installing hot showers at Hawk and funding NBB.

My Wing Commander just happened to be the NBB director the last 2 years. I'll have to ask her exactly how much of this Vanguard money she saw.

I do know she wasn't happy being stuck paying far and away more for berets, T-shirts and challenge coins from Vanguard over already established vendors they had in years past who provided better products and services at lower prices. I also know she wasn't the only activity director who felt this way, either.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 13, 2010, 06:28:17 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 11, 2010, 06:21:18 PM
I just placed an order, 5 seconds ago.  We'll conduct a test.

The order contained 15 separate line items of multiple quantities. It contains awards, ribbon racks, clothing items and novelty items (a bit from every section). The order was enough to qualify for the free shipping, with a special request to ship UPS or USPS, because FedEX can't find my house (new subdivision, I don't have a valid address).

So, it is 11SEP10 at 1:20 CST, a Saturday.  I'll chime back in when my order arrives.

I just received my shipping notice.  Shipped UPS, expected delivery of Wednesday.

Ding Dong, goes the door bell.  Hello, Mr. UPSman.

Order recieved Tuesday 14SEP10, at 0835 CST.

Order is complete.

So, if the order isn't processed on the weekend, when I placed it, that means that it was in Vanguard's hands for a whopping two hours before they shipped it. 

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 14, 2010, 01:44:29 PM
So, if the order isn't processed on the weekend, when I placed it, that means that it was in Vanguard's hands for a whopping two hours before they shipped it.

Don't you hate it when facts interfere with perception?

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2010, 02:51:08 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 14, 2010, 01:44:29 PM
So, if the order isn't processed on the weekend, when I placed it, that means that it was in Vanguard's hands for a whopping two hours before they shipped it.

Don't you hate it when facts interfere with perception?

That WAS nice service!

Which makes me think again - google alerts.

I've honestly not received anything in less than 1 week's time, at worst 2-3 weeks with UPS Next Day upgrade.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2010, 02:51:08 PMDon't you hate it when facts interfere with perception?

...unless they caught wind of this thread ;-)

And you don't think perception is shaped by this thread?

"Sauce for the goose . . ."

I got this kind of service long before this thread. You have to consider that people hardly post on the internet for "performing at expectations" levels. Its either extremely good and you want to recommend it, or extremely bad and you want to warn people of it. The top and bottom 10% of each.

Quote from: Ned on September 14, 2010, 06:45:49 PM
And you don't think perception is shaped by this thread?

"Sauce for the goose . . ."

I've got a coin, lets flip it in the air, heads good service, tails bad service.   When you deal with Vanguard, that's what we are talking about, flipping a coin, maybe service will be good maybe bad.  I know with the Hawk Shop service was always consistently great!!! :clap:

When you talk about the vendor giving CAP royalties from the sales of items, they've built in that percentage into the sale price, so it really is the membership purchasing that is funding this, it isn't Vanguard or the vast capabilities of those that negotiated the contract >:(

The membership will never win this arguement because the decision has already been made, but frankly they will circumvent the "system" when possible to get the service they expect :angel:
RM 

My two experiences with Hock were horrible...

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 14, 2010, 08:59:56 PM
I've got a coin, lets flip it in the air, heads good service, tails bad service.   When you deal with Vanguard, that's what we are talking about, flipping a coin, maybe service will be good maybe bad.

If you have any data to support that 50% of CAP VG customers get bad service, I'd love to see it.

You do have that, right?  You're not just making that up, are you?  While puffing up a competitor that had to be sued by CAP to stop pirating our intellectual property?

QuoteWhen you talk about the vendor giving CAP royalties from the sales of items, they've built in that percentage into the sale price, so it really is the membership purchasing that is funding this, it isn't Vanguard or the vast capabilities of those that negotiated the contract >:(

I'm sorry, what was your point here?

QuoteThe membership will never win this arguement because the decision has already been made. . .

You're certainly correct that our volunteer leaders have entered into a competatively-bid contract with VG.  One that will be renewed only if both parties believe it is in their best interest to do so.

By all means keep sharing your perceptions of the value (or lack thereof) with your wing commander, so that she/he can be better informed the next time the contract comes up for renewal.

Well after a pushy email from me my order was shipped with NO letter or answer as why it took so long to ship. I had tried to send a message with the online chat thing they have on the website only to have it say nobody was available to chat but they would send this in a message that somebody would answer, no answer to that. Vanguard has done nothing to make me want to ever order from them again. Maybe they have read this forum and are trying to do better but they didn't show that to me.
Those on here that are standing up saying they are the best place must be the few that benefit from the overage the rest are paying. This just goes to show what happens when you have the government involved with an exclusive contact for goods, many people pay for the good of a limited few.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 15, 2010, 03:19:26 PM
Those on here that are standing up saying they are the best place must be the few that benefit from the overage the rest are paying. This just goes to show what happens when you have the government involved with an exclusive contact for goods, many people pay for the good of a limited few.

Speak plainly, sir.

Did you just accuse me of pocketing members' money?

How exactly am I benefiting from the VG contract to the detriment of the membership?

Serious words, my friend.

Would you care to explain?

Or will you just continue to sharpshoot anonymously?

Ned Lee

I placed an order on 8 Sept for various items (wing patches, ribbon devices) and it's still listed as "processing." I hope they get to it soon -- I want to get my new uniforms all put together!

Quote from: Captain Rob on September 15, 2010, 03:58:40 PM
I placed an order on 8 Sept for various items (wing patches, ribbon devices) and it's still listed as "processing." I hope they get to it soon -- I want to get my new uniforms all put together!

What wing? maybe I'm not the only one on here from GLR-OH.

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 08, 2010, 02:27:44 PM
Since I think if I want new uniforms like the dress stuff I would have to order it from vanguard I'm think you will never see me in that dress.

Two words-Thrift Store. I'm trying to (re)start a unit supply, and that's where I find most of my stuff, at very reasonable prices, I might add. Just Google local thrift stores and shop around. You'll be amazed at what you find. 

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 15, 2010, 03:19:26 PM
Those on here that are standing up saying they are the best place must be the few that benefit from the overage the rest are paying. This just goes to show what happens when you have the government involved with an exclusive contact for goods, many people pay for the good of a limited few.

That is just plain insulting and shows a very negative and personal bias toward CAP, the people in CAP, and Vanguard. 

Edit to my last post: you can find plenty of clothing items at thrift stores, but for things such as gear, ribbon holders, etc. better go to the surplus store. Just wanted to make that clear.  :D

Quote from: Ned on September 15, 2010, 03:50:44 PM

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 15, 2010, 03:19:26 PM
Those on here that are standing up saying they are the best place must be the few that benefit from the overage the rest are paying. This just goes to show what happens when you have the government involved with an exclusive contact for goods, many people pay for the good of a limited few.

Speak plainly, sir.

Did you just accuse me of pocketing members' money?

How exactly am I benefiting from the VG contract to the detriment of the membership?

Serious words, my friend.

Would you care to explain?

Or will you just continue to sharpshoot anonymously?

Ned Lee

Ned I think he was trying to get across that he believes there are just as many CAP Members not getting as great service as those that do.  I know Vanguard has crapped out on me a few times, but the majority of the time it has been positive. Especially now that I can use my business account to ship FEDEX, and get the business shipping rate (about 30% less than through Vanguard)  I am even more pleased.

The only time I was ever really upset was when I found about ten items on the CAP pages on the Vanguard site that sold at a significantly higher price than what the same website was selling the same item for on their Air Force or Army page. That was terrible! 

Quote from: Patterson on September 15, 2010, 09:20:35 PM

Ned I think he was trying to get across that he believes there are just as many CAP Members not getting as great service as those that do. 

If that what he means, he can speak for himself. 

But I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation based on his accusation that "the few benefit from the overage the rest are paying" and "many people pay for the good of a limited few."

In my line of work, we are sensitive to allegations of corruption.

Quote
The only time I was ever really upset was when I found about ten items on the CAP pages on the Vanguard site that sold at a significantly higher price than what the same website was selling the same item for on their Air Force or Army page. That was terrible!

I agree that that was improper, but they fixed it as soon as it was brought to their attention.  It appears to have been a transition issue as they were standing up the CAP store. 

Now, if Gung Ho would care to respond, I would be interested in what he has to say . . .

I took it to mean that only a few locations are benefiting (Hawk, NESA, NBB), but obviously YMMV.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 16, 2010, 12:57:54 AM
I took it to mean that only a few locations are benefiting (Hawk, NESA, NBB), but obviously YMMV.

Thats what I mean, it was said before only a very few places were seeing any money from this. So many are paying for the benefit of a few. I never said anybody was getting a kick back but you should jumped pretty quick on that. I don't know where the money is going and that is the point. Sorry I don't waste my time watching the board here so I don't post all day like some do and so I didn't reply quick enough for you.

Quote from: Ned on September 15, 2010, 11:39:24 PM

Quote from: Patterson on September 15, 2010, 09:20:35 PM

Ned I think he was trying to get across that he believes there are just as many CAP Members not getting as great service as those that do. 

If that what he means, he can speak for himself. 

But I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation based on his accusation that "the few benefit from the overage the rest are paying" and "many people pay for the good of a limited few."

In my line of work, we are sensitive to allegations of corruption.

Wow....did not mean to upset you Ned.  I read it as him meaning that the overage the majority pay equates to less others have to pay, both monetarily and in time waiting for a package to arrive. 

I apologize! 

Quote from: GTCommando on September 15, 2010, 05:31:16 PMWhat wing? maybe I'm not the only one on here from GLR-OH.

NER-NJ. Got my ship notice not long after making my prior post!

Quote from: Gung Ho on September 16, 2010, 01:26:13 AMI don't know where the money is going and that is the point.

If that is the case, then perhaps you might consider simply asking the question before making inflammatory statements anonymously accusing our leadership of mismanagement.

Have you asked your wing commander something as simple as "Hey, where is the VG money going?" You could even ask that simple question here, and I'll bet you get the information you seek.

It is not a secret.  The money goes to support regional training facilities like Hawk and  Oshkosh that provide training for thousands of our members.  And all members can apply to attend activities at these terrific facilities.

As in you, me, and every other member of CAP.

If you want to know where the vangard money goes, just look at the Minutes of the NEC meetings.  It is located in the Finance Committe report.  As Ned so states.  It's no secret.

Quote from: Ned on September 16, 2010, 04:26:02 PM
It is not a secret.  The money goes to support regional training facilities like Hawk and  Oshkosh that provide training for thousands of our members.  And all members can apply to attend activities at these terrific facilities.

Legit question any business or military unit must answer at some point..... "is it worth dumping money into the program, location or facility if there is no return on investment".   Not Bashing Hawk MTN, but the attendance was not as high as it has been in previous years, and in fact has been on a decline.  (That is straight from the PA Wing Commander during a conference call).  If attendance is going up at say "NESA" shouldn't the money be shifted to that location from Hawk??

That is true about many things in CAP.  It used to be that if a Squadron does not place enough miles or hours on a Van it goes to a unit that can.  How fair is it that a unit with 73 Cadets can not get a single van, yet a brand new van went to a unit that has 12 Cadets.  According to the equipment lists, the larger Cadet unit should get 2-3 vans, yet they can not get one.  That is something that is more important and relevant in CAP!  Lets improve our fleet before we dump cash into facilities that are not getting used!!

Quote from: Patterson on September 16, 2010, 07:59:05 PM

Quote from: Ned on September 16, 2010, 04:26:02 PM
It is not a secret.  The money goes to support regional training facilities like Hawk and  Oshkosh that provide training for thousands of our members.  And all members can apply to attend activities at these terrific facilities.

Legit question any business or military unit must answer at some point..... "is it worth dumping money into the program, location or facility if there is no return on investment".   Not Bashing Hawk MTN, but the attendance was not as high as it has been in previous years, and in fact has been on a decline.  (That is straight from the PA Wing Commander during a conference call).  If attendance is going up at say "NESA" shouldn't the money be shifted to that location from Hawk??

That is true about many things in CAP.  It used to be that if a Squadron does not place enough miles or hours on a Van it goes to a unit that can.  How fair is it that a unit with 73 Cadets can not get a single van, yet a brand new van went to a unit that has 12 Cadets.  According to the equipment lists, the larger Cadet unit should get 2-3 vans, yet they can not get one.  That is something that is more important and relevant in CAP!  Lets improve our fleet before we dump cash into facilities that are not getting used!!

CAP Corporate vehicles, come from Air force dollars, just like the aircraft, so purchasing additional vehicles with money from Vanguard, would not be allowed.

Quote from: Patterson on September 16, 2010, 07:59:05 PM

Legit question any business or military unit must answer at some point.....

Of course these are legitimate questions, and I have been in the room during NB and NEC meetings when our volunteer leaders discuss these factors, as well as others.

While you and I may not personally agree with the specific allocation of funds returned by VG, rest assured that our leaders do carefully consider a number of factors before reaching their decisions.  You can and should express your concerns to your wing commander who will be part of the decision making process.

But they are not just sitting in back rooms tossing darts at the wall.

Vehicle (air and ground) issue is not always simple math exercise.

In addition to having the numbers and usage to support it, there has to be one or more people willing to take responsibility, a safe place for it to be stored, a few bucks incidentals, etc.

I recently helped with an SUI at a struggling unit where the CC (slash LGT) was very proud that they had no radios, vehicles, or even a laptop "So we don't have to worry about all those inventories...".

Any unit with 73 cadets likely has someone who would be caretaker for a van, but I have also seen units who took so poor care of their vehicle it was yanked to never come back.

Those places might be all that but none of the cadets from my area can afford to go in the first place. How about spending the money to help them get there? Doesn't do any good to have even a state of the art facility if people can't afford to go. Maybe you guys are from squads that have more money then they know what to do with but we have cadets that find it hard to pay dues so going to even local events is hard to do. Maybe they could spend the money on some events in different states every year and in central part of the state so it's easier for all to go.
Heck cadets don't even get their blues sometimes because there is no money for them at that time. Seem like that would be a bare min. We get cadets to join and tell them they will get a free set of blues and then have to tell them there is no money right now. How do you think that makes them feel?
All I'm saying is only a few get to see the money all are spending to order from a company that to me and what seems like allot of others, don't even seem to care about us. You seem to take this way out of meaning and I can't understand why.

Why do you even tell them they will get a free uniform? You shouldn't promise what you can't deliver.

If they don't put in for the uniform how will they ever get it? As far as I know the cadets are the ones that have to put in for them. How are we suppose to get them to do that without telling them they are free? Should we lye to them and say if they fill that out they might win a lottery and get a free uniform?

^ Gung Ho....I have my DCC order the FCU's for new cadets at his house, ship them to unit mailing address.  That way we issue them and make sure the Cadet gets his or her new uniform.

Anyway, I do have to conduct fundraisers just to make sure my Cadets get new shoes.  They are not cheap.  I pay $42.50 from AAFES to get them shoes.  Plus the expense of name tags, insignia and such really adds up. 

I will never turn a cadet away from CAP, but I know we are missing out on prospective Cadets who legitimately want (and sometimes need) to join.  They don't because it costs far more than what National shows on the web page. 

Quote from: Patterson on September 18, 2010, 02:00:10 AMAnyway, I do have to conduct fundraisers just to make sure my Cadets get new shoes.  They are not cheap.  I pay $42.50 from AAFES to get them shoes.  Plus the expense of name tags, insignia and such really adds up.   

Unnecessary and twice what you should be paying for shoes, which is clearly not the responsibility of the unit or unit staffers.

Shiny Corfams are nice, if you can afford them.  If not, you just wear regular black dress shoes - $20 or less at Target.

The $42.50 at AAFES is for the regular issue leather shoes. Corofams cost more.

Quote from: PHall on September 18, 2010, 03:40:20 AM
The $42.50 at AAFES is for the regular issue leather shoes. Corofams cost more.

It could be for shoes with a goldfish in the heel - still too much for shoes only worn a couple times a month and likely outgrown in less than a year.

The problem with most of the black dress shoes I've seen at Target, Wal-Mart, etc is they do not have a plain toe. Here's another inexpensive option - Black dress shoe (http://www.qmuniforms.com/Product/lawpro-uniform-oxford/PPS87+161/200307401). $25.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 18, 2010, 03:50:09 AM

Quote from: PHall on September 18, 2010, 03:40:20 AM
The $42.50 at AAFES is for the regular issue leather shoes. Corofams cost more.

It could be for shoes with a goldfish in the heel - still too much for shoes only worn a couple times a month and likely outgrown in less than a year.

No, these are the normal "issue" shoes. Same ones that are issued at Lackland when you go through BMT.

The last time I priced uniform dress shoes, leather ones cost more than the Corfams. I believe that is still the case. I can't get into the AAFES site right now to compare their prices.

Update on the costs for shoes at AAFES. Per their website they are now $47.25.