Honor Guard Rifles

[calebtornado12]

Hello everyone! Just had a quick question that I hope some of you can answer. I am currently the cadet in charge of my unit's honor guard. Right now, we only have a few parade rifles that we can use. A few SM and I have been talking about trying to buy new ones, our only problem is that we don't know where to buy them. Does anyone know a website that sells the brown version of the parade rifle for affordable price and decent quality? Thanks for all your help!  (Oh also, just so we are clear, these are the non-operating ones, just in case there was any misconception).

corrected thread title spelling - Pace

[Eclipse]

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=parade%20rifle&index=blended&link_code=qs&tag=wwwcanoniccom-20

http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles.html

Don't spend a lot of money on these, and if you can get the plastic ones, that's the way to go - you can't see detail from
the audience or parade route anyway.

These look great, have an operation bolt (generally useless for anything but between parade cadet playing) and only cost ~$42.



http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles/drillamerica-parade-rifle.html

[calebtornado12]

Yeah currently we don't have a lot of $$, we are kinda looking for maybe used rifles that we could polish up and look better. The ones on amazon are a different model.... thanks though! We do actually have one of those models, but its busted in half  . Do you think they would sell them at like Army/Navy surplus stores?   

[Eclipse]

Do you think they would sell them at like Army/Navy surplus stores?

Doubtful.

See above for the $40 plastic one I added.

[calebtornado12]

The one on the parade store link that we need is that one that's 41.95! And they have a color option! still a little pricey, but hey, awesome start! Thanks!

[calebtornado12]

Yeah the one in the picture is exactly what we need!

[RogueLeader]

Yeah currently we don't have a lot of $$, we are kinda looking for maybe used rifles that we could polish up and look better. The ones on amazon are a different model.... thanks though! We do actually have one of those models, but its busted in half  . Do you think they would sell them at like Army/Navy surplus stores?

It never hurts to check.  I've never seen them in any Army/Navy surplus stores that I've been to, but you never know.  The used non-functional parade rifles that I've seen for sale were not, in my opinion, in what I would call Serviceable Condition.  I've seen one that someone tried to make serviceable, and it looked worse than before the attempt.

[calebtornado12]

Yeah currently we don't have a lot of $$, we are kinda looking for maybe used rifles that we could polish up and look better. The ones on amazon are a different model.... thanks though! We do actually have one of those models, but its busted in half  . Do you think they would sell them at like Army/Navy surplus stores?

It never hurts to check.  I've never seen them in any Army/Navy surplus stores that I've been to, but you never know.  The used non-functional parade rifles that I've seen for sale were not, in my opinion, in what I would call Serviceable Condition.  I've seen one that someone tried to make serviceable, and it looked worse than before the attempt.

Ha Ha, I know what you mean. Right now we arent really in a rush, but what we are trying to do is get more riffles to make a honor guard drill team. We have a awesome active color guard team right now, but only two rifles that are worthy of using. The other two are the same rifle, but white, so they cant be used, and the other one we have is broken in half.  Other than that, all we have are wooden practice rifles that really suck.

[Eclipse]

2x4s cut to the general shape are fine for practice.

My advice on this is to get people involved and trained and worry about appearance later.

I've seen a lot of units spend uber$$$ on parade equipment for a team to never materialize.

Also, you check with your Group and Wing CP folks.  A lot of that magic HMRS money was spent by
wings on parade gear which was then issued downstream.  Your wing might have either rifles in boxes
or money waiting for someone to request it.

[DakRadz]

White- meet my friend, Spraypaint. I think y'all will get along just fine.


This is actually what you yourself mentioned about getting some old ones and cleaning them up. If the color is the issue, fix that.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[calebtornado12]

Thank you to all of you! I'll definitely be mentioning these things to my SM.

[Holding Pattern]

Reach out to your local American Legion outpost. See if they will front you a pair of rifles and flags.

[RogueLeader]

Reach out to your local American Legion outpost. See if they will front you a pair of rifles and flags.

All of the American Legion posts that I know of have active rifles, not the deactivated rifles required by CAP.  YMMV of course.

[DakRadz]

Reach out to your local American Legion outpost. See if they will front you a pair of rifles and flags.

All of the American Legion posts that I know of have active rifles, not the deactivated rifles required by CAP.  YMMV of course.

This is may be true, but if they front the cost, not the rifles, you can get a nice Post to actually purchase the equipment as a donation. That's what I've seen.

[stillamarine]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/233245899/practice-drill-rifle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/233245899/practice-drill-rifle

These are nice enough to just use for the parade!

[Mitchell 1969]

Reach out to your local American Legion outpost. See if they will front you a pair of rifles and flags.

All of the American Legion posts that I know of have active rifles, not the deactivated rifles required by CAP.  YMMV of course.

I've never seen an active rifle at any Legion Hall. They usually had either bolts welded shut or barrels filled with lead.

That said, they are heavy. For cadets, better to go with the facsimile parade rifles.

[SarDragon]

That said, they are heavy. For cadets, better to go with the facsimile parade rifles.

Agreed.

I wrestled a Springfield, avec baïonnette, when I was on an ROTC  drill team, and it got to be a struggle sometimes. We have a local unit with '03s, and they practice many hours a month to achieve and maintain their skills.

[audiododd]

That said, they are heavy. For cadets, better to go with the facsimile parade rifles.

Agreed.

I wrestled a Springfield, avec baïonnette, when I was on an ROTC  drill team, and it got to be a struggle sometimes. We have a local unit with '03s, and they practice many hours a month to achieve and maintain their skills.

Same here, but with an M1 Garand with a blocked barrel.  I think I had Popeye arms by the end of the semester!  We used to have field stripping competitions for bragging rights.

[Shawn W.]

Having been a Color Guard Commander when I was a cadet and then managing my Squadron's Color Guard for four years, I will say that personally I like the Drill America replica M1 Garands the best. They are a little heavier but they look sharp. I have used the springfield models and have found their quality to be poor. After time and use, the bolt likes to pop open randomly, the slings loose their tightness and are a pain in the butt once they do and the sling adjustment piece tends to get bent up which then leads to many sling problems. Our Color Guard uses the M1s only for public performances and we keep our springfields for practice. I would suggest that if you have the means to, buy two sets of rifles for the same reasons.

Just my two cents.

Good Luck

[calebtornado12]

Thanks everyone. Thought I'd mention something interesting I witnessed a while ago. I was helping out with O-Flights one day by flight marshaling, getting pictures, video, etc. Our planes are held by another squadron in our wing since they have hangars space. Apparently during this day, they had their squadron color guard practice. the rifles they used though are actual rifles that they simply took the bolts out of. I know the reg says that we cant use functioning rifles, but i mean, the only thing missing from these where the bolt pins that fired them. Is that something that needs to be addressed, or hypothetically, could that be another option? 

[Eclipse]

This is someone's "good idea", and I'd be willing to bet a Venti with an extra shot those
bolts are "around".

That's not a good choice for 10 reasons, the first two being regs and weight, not to mention common sense.

[calebtornado12]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise.... 

[Eclipse]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise....

If the only thing missing is the firing pins, they are in violation of 52-16, 2-9a:

"a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor
guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the
firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition."

[Holding Pattern]

Yup, this is generally accomplished with a filled barrel if you are trying to keep the weapon looking good.

[arajca]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise....

If the only thing missing is the firing pins, they are in violation of 52-16, 2-9a:

"a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor
guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the
firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition."

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

I would consider using those rifles to be in violation.

[Eclipse]

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

I suppose, at least from the legalistic side.

Ask yourself this...

Is it out of the realm of possibility that a cadet would obtain live ammo for them and insert it to be cool?

Would you want your cadets walking around with a live bullet in a gun that "can't fire"?

He didn't say what kind of rifles these are, but could they be slam fired or go off if loaded and dropped?

If I were a cadet and had access to rifles that could cycle dummy loads, that would be very cool.  Even if you
can't actually shoot, that would make things like a ceremonial squad very cool.

With that said, there are videos on the web shooting pellets with Hilti .22 cartridges - there is no end to mayhem when
boredom and bandwidth meet.

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

That's my take, as I said, I'd bet those parts aren't far out of reach because RED DAWN!

[NIN]

Geez, guys, take this one to the nth degree much?

The regulation states "A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon."

Filling the barrel/chamber or removing the firing pin will do either.  So will a number of other things, depending on the weapon: removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier group, removal of the entire trigger assembly, etc.

"But ... what if the enterprising cadet came with his OWN bolt-carrier assembly??"

Give it a rest.  You can drill with deactivated firearms.  If people are smart about what they are doing, and what they are teaching, it won't be a problem.

About 25 years ago, the Memorial Day right after the Gulf War I, I got asked if CAP could do a thing at a local parade.  The parade organizers then specifically asked if we could do a firing party with a rifle salute at the cemetery at the end of the parade rout.

"Whoa. Yeah, no can do there, sorry.  CAP can't do rifle salutes like that."

Apparently the local Legion or VFW couldn't put enough guys together to do a 7-man firing detail, and they thought, you know, since CAP was marching, why not?

I did come up with a slightly better idea: I arranged for some CAP folks I knew who were also dual-hatted (Army National Guard, Air Guard, Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve) to show up that day, all of us in our "other" uniforms.   The VFW guy met us with the M1s before the parade, and we spent about 20 minutes going over the manual of arms for our friends in the Air Guard (even the Navy guy knew the manual of arms).  Port, right-shoulder, etc. 

We practiced the firing line 4-5 times, and as we were talking about getting over to the cemetery before the parade stepped off, the parade organizer had a great idea: "Hey! How about you guys march there with the rest of the parade?"  Everybody but the blue-suiters thought that was a swell idea.  Midway thru the parade, my Air Guard comrades were complaining (loudly) about how heavy an M-1 was compared to an M-16 (~7lbs vs ~9.5lbs) and their arms were getting tired.

We managed to get to the park without a dropped rifle, and executed the rifle salute with adequate precision. Nobody was going to mistake us for the Old Guard.

[TheSkyHornet]

To the Col's point---

Remove the firing pin. There. All fixed. Nobody in the vicinity can load a round into that rifle and fire it at will or by accident. It is, by definition, deactivated. You're not ruining the rifle. You can always take that same rifle back into possession and put the firing pin back in to make it serviceable--reactivated.

Use common sense. Anyone arguing "someone can put the firing pin back in" is making the same argument as "someone can change out the barrel and make it a serviceable weapon." It's the EXACT same argument.

[SarDragon]

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

I suppose, at least from the legalistic side.

Ask yourself this...

Is it out of the realm of possibility that a cadet would obtain live ammo for them and insert it to be cool?

Certainly possible. Likely? Who knows?

Would you want your cadets walking around with a live bullet in a gun that "can't fire"?

He didn't say what kind of rifles these are, but could they be slam fired or go off if loaded and dropped?

That's definite no for the Springfield '03. The firing mechanism unscrews from the back of the bolt, and once the firing pin is ground off, it it disabled. There's nothing left to strike the primer in the cartridge.

If I were a cadet and had access to rifles that could cycle dummy loads, that would be very cool.  Even if you
can't actually shoot, that would make things like a ceremonial squad very cool.

With that said, there are videos on the web shooting pellets with Hilti .22 cartridges - there is no end to mayhem when
boredom and bandwidth meet.

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

That's my take, as I said, I'd bet those parts aren't far out of reach because RED DAWN!

As stated above, it's not just one part involved. If the actual firing pin is ground off (the easiest method), the weapon is disabled. Most of the drill '03s I've used have been disabled in this fashion, and there have never been problems or questions on usability issues.

[Eclipse]

Use common sense. Anyone arguing "someone can put the firing pin back in" is making the same argument as "someone can change out the barrel and make it a serviceable weapon." It's the EXACT same argument.

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

[NIN]

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

"Cadet attempted to insert ammunition into the chamber of the deactivated firearm.  The barrel was plugged, but the chamber would still accept ammunition.  The firing pin, however, was not removed."

[Luis R. Ramos]

A few years ago I was active as a volunteer with the National Park Service at Fort Hancock. The organization I worked for was restoring Battery Gunnison to what it looked like during 1943. We wore the Army uniform of that era, and carried weapons. Some of us, myself included, did not have licenses. The commander owned several 1903 Springfields, and we used them. Of course we had bolts with the firing pin removed. Barrels were not plugged, and we could insert live ammo. We used blank rounds, that is, one of the members took shells, punched holes in them, and put the bullets in it. The firing pin could be attached to the bolt, reinserted, and the rifle could be fired. This organization had been working for 4 or 5 years, made considerable investments in the battery. Among it, a new complete electrical installation duplicating that of 1943, a working fire control telephone switchboard with about 15 working 1940 telephones, and other items.

National Park Police objected to those of us with no licenses carrying those weapons. The Springfield owner had to buy bolts, file off the part where the firing pin sat, and paint part of the bolt red.

That is what "deactivated" meant to the National Park Police.

[Eclipse]

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

"Cadet attempted to insert ammunition into the chamber of the deactivated firearm.  The barrel was plugged, but the chamber would still accept ammunition.  The firing pin, however, was not removed."

Firearm exploded, blinding Cadet 1 in right eye, who also lost two fingers on right hand.  Cadet 2 lost 50% hearing in left ear.

Why would we allow anything but plastic again?

[NIN]

Here's a sad fact:

We've just argued left and right about the hypothetical possibility of some trooper bringing his own firing pin AND ammunition for an M-1 Garand and *somehow* putting both in the firearm, while nobody is watching, and becoming a hazard.

While at the same time, there are people who would have no problem when some cadet randomly shows up to a ES activity or bivouac with a K-bar rigged upside down on his LCE, or with a machete jammed in his rucksack "for clearing brush."

I've seen *FAR* more *ACTUAL* problems with cadets and big pig-stickers than I've *EVER* seen with cadets and deactivated firearms.

BITD (it was, that year, a Thursday), the old USAF survival knife was a "standard" for GT & field purposes. Pretty much everybody had one, and they were considered the "acceptable" sheath knife for that purpose.


Like this handsome devil is sporting on his right hip.

But someone always showed up with a gigantic Rambo knife rigged like this:


(either a K-Bar, or a legit Randall Rambo knife, like this)


You'd tell the guy "You're gonna be going thru the brush and something is going to hit that snap, and that knife will do a 180 on the way down and go right thru your boot" and he'd poo-pooh you, as would others. And then, via the radio, "Ahhh, we need a medic on the compass course.."

But nobody even batted an *eye* at someone with a gigantic knife or machete.

WIWAC, I didn't even know where I could obtain a firing pin and ammo for an M-1 Garand, let alone how to actually install it and then chamber ammo. Besides, why would I?  It was pretty clear that the rifle was for ceremonial, not tactical, purposes.

Plus, the few times I'd been around a "deactivated firearm" for the purposes of color guard, etc, we were heavily supervised.  What would someone do, find a way mid-parade to slip the firing pin into the rifle and put some ammo in it?  Right.

I'd be more worried about the cadet dropping a 9 lb hunk of wood and metal on his foot, or getting a buttstock upside the head, deactivated or facsimile, than I would *ever* be worried about someone making a deactivated firearm a non-deactivated firearm and then putting live ammo in it.

Bigger potential CAPF 78 safety concern than cadets attempting to make deactivated firearms non-deactivated:

Bayonets. Sharpened or not.

"Geez, Mrs. Smith, its a good thing those are just unsharpened ceremonial bayonets, or we'd have had to use an ice chest to put Timmy's fingers in for the ride to the hospital."

[calebtornado12]

For those who are still interested, these are M14 rifles (yes they have the ability to attach bayonets to them).

[Eclipse]

To NIN's last post - when you have to start pulling out the Kodachrome slides, they aren't really "current events", but regardless,
I can't disagree - seen that nonsense myself, I can only reply "not on my watch".

As to "heavily supervised", sure, during the parades and related.  We've seen in messages here that cadets practice on their own -
that's when the fun starts, be it bayonets or "dudes, I found the firing pins, let's check Youtube and see if these things well shoot!"

There are things that are preventable and foreseeable, and things which are legit accidents.

Of course in this case we're discussing a 3rd-hand account of what those may or may not actually be capable of, nothing against
Cadet Bryant, that's just the reality here.

[Luis R. Ramos]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

[NIN]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

Indeed they will.

I just watched a 5:45 long video on how to disassemble & reassemble the bolt on an M-1.  My takeaway (something I didn't know before):  You actually need tools to put the firing pin into the bolt of an M-1.  (my experience is with the M-16A1 musket, which I could have broken down into its component parts in about a minute with no tools, and probably could put the firing pin into while actually marching in a parade), so I learned something new today.

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Matter of fact, replace "firing pin" with "keys" and "rifle" with "Air Force vehicle" and I can tell you a 34 year old story about 15 year old C/SSgt careening around the ramp of an Air National Guard base in the middle of the night in a Follow Me truck.

And thats not hyperbole.

[Eclipse]

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Absolutely, I get it, but that still doesn't make this a good idea.

[indiaXray]

An interesting discussion.  My own experience might offer a different perspective.  In all three of the UK cadet organizations, teenage members were and still are given serviceable rifles to use for ceremonial duties.  Before they are even allowed to touch them, they are given the same rigorous and thorough training that members of HM Forces receive.  I failed mine on my first attempt, and demonstration of skill-at-arms proficiency was required or you were dismissed.  Any child who was tempted to 'dick about' was immediately ejected from the room, as I witnessed more than once.  At least one was dismissed from my unit for taking liberties with something so serious.  I assume those penalties haven't changed.  Ammunition never saw the light of day outside of an MoD-managed firing range and bayonets were banned for safety reasons. I assume those restrictions haven't changed.  There are also many, many health and safety/risk assessment forms to be filled out for the adult volunteers prior to any activity involving rifles.  The end result, was me 'marching up and down the square' with in essence a 9.5 pound rifle-shaped paperweight.  Personally, I was awed, terrified, and humbled when someone handed me a rifle, but that was just me

I will concede that the ease-of-obtainability of ammunition within the United States makes skill-at-arms with servicable rifles a prohibitively dangerous activity for the Civil Air Patrol today.

[calebtornado12]

In response to Eclipse, I feel the same way, these aren't my cadets, this is another squadron in my wing. The main reason it worried me is because I also had to help them pretty much redo their entire routine because they had been following Army drill and ceremonies instead of the AFMAN 36-2203, which made me feel like they didn't actually know what they were doing.

[SarDragon]

In my days of wrestling '03s, we had practice bayonets, and performance bayonets. The former were as-issued - sharp and regular finish. The latter had the edges ground down, because the chrome didn't work well there, and they were polished and chromed.

The practice units could, and did, produce injuries that would bleed - cuts, slices, etc. The performance units only ever managed to produce bruises, because they weren't sharp enough to do anything else. There was one bleeding injury, where a guy got whacked in the jaw, but that was really no different that getting whacked by any other similar weight metal object.

tl;dr - if you dull the edges, you're dealing with the possibility of blunt force injuries, and not puncture or laceration injuries.

All that said, I think bayonets are overkill for CAP use. They add weight and awkwardness to an already heavy and awkward item.

[NIN]

The end result, was me 'marching up and down the square' with in essence a 9.5 pound rifle-shaped paperweight.  Personally, I was awed, terrified, and humbled when someone handed me a rifle, but that was just me

"Marching up and down the square not good enough for you, eh?!"
LOL.

I will concede that the ease-of-obtainability of ammunition within the United States makes skill-at-arms with servicable rifles a prohibitively dangerous activity for the Civil Air Patrol today.

I don't know about the UK, but when you were handed an L98, did you drill with it?  If so, did the armorer disable it prior to using it for drill & ceremonies purposes?

Or did you drill with L103A2 Drill Purpose rifles? Which, of course, are not serviceable rifles.

As we've already established, CAP uses the terms "deactivated" or "facsimile" firearms as opposed to "not serviceable" or similar.

Facsimile, of course, its basically "Something made to look like a rifle," probably for economical and ceremonial purposes. A rifle-shaped paperweight.

Deactivated meaning incapable of chambering or firing ammunition.  So, you know, a rifle-shaped paperweight.

Whether ammunition is easy to come by or not is not a factor.  Its deactivated. Whether by plugging the barrel or removing the firing mechanism.

[NIN]

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Absolutely, I get it, but that still doesn't make this a good idea.

Then every CAP activity needs an armored and alarmed keybox and all vehicle keys have to be maintained in there.

Just in case.  Because, per that logic, thats a Good Idea™

And woe be the kid who brings an extra set of keys. He *might* go joy riding!

*sigh*

When does the arms race stop? 

There is a logical conclusion (where events and activities beyond which are considered VERY low probability) and then an illogical conclusion (where we can "what if" this until we come up with the most unworkable and fantastical set of circumstances known to man..)

Most of what is discussed is approaching the latter at this point.

[SarDragon]

Gee, this sounds like a great time to inject an ORM matrix. 

[Eclipse]

When does the arms race stop? 

Generally about ten minutes after the bleeding stops.

There's no way to bubble-wrap our people, especially cadets, and we do, occasionally, ask them to do things
with higher risk then the average day-to-day experience,  - I mean heck, how do you account for cadets
falling off tables, or leaving them-shaped holes in walls during encampments?
(Pro Tip: Supervision, which was lacking in both cases).  No matter how much we try, our members are very
creative in regards to hurting themselves.

But this gets back to the idea using ORM in "always-on" mode and dialing down the "it's cooler factor".

The bayonets, obviously, are a non-starter, how that's even considered, let alone allowed, is beyond me,
but in the choice between a 2-lb plastic facsimile and a 12 pound "deactivated" weapon (which if nothing
else makes a nice baseball bat) the plastic should win every time, and whomever is making the "use these"
decision needs to consider both the situation and the optics.

No, it is not likely that these will ever fire again, nor cause any issue beyond tired arms, but for my money, it's just one more place
I wouldn't need to be "concerned", and my already divided attention could be more focused elsewhere.

For the record, a lot of activities do use key-control and other measures in regards to COVs, and the safety issue,
after several serious mishaps, is why ATVs and gators aren't supposed to be allowed in CAP functions except
wing or higher activities with explicit permission (something increasingly ignored as we get distance from the aging directive).

[NIN]

When does the arms race stop? 

Generally about ten minutes after the bleeding stops.

As a guy who participates in a sport where most (all?) of the safety rules are written in blood, I get this.

There's no way to bubble-wrap our people, especially cadets, and we do, occasionally, ask them to do things
with higher risk then the average day-to-day experience,  - I mean heck, how do you account for cadets
falling off tables, or leaving them-shaped holes in walls during encampments?
(Pro Tip: Supervision, which was lacking in both cases).  No matter how much we try, our members are very
creative in regards to hurting themselves.

Like we say in skydiving "We keep finding ways to make the sport safer, and people keep finding more creative ways to kill themselves."

I've been there in more than one organization: left to their own devices, cadets will find incredibly creative ways to test the limits of both physics and the officer's patience, generally (always?) to their detriment.  In my experience in the USAC, tactical level adult supervision was always in short supply, and 15-20 minutes out of sight of an officer or adult NCO was about the limit before you were going to wind up delivering desk-mounted knifehands, IPT, or counseling statements all around.  I get it, sure.  "Cadet, I don't even get to hit the latrine without you people getting a case of the stupids?"

But this gets back to the idea using ORM in "always-on" mode and dialing down the "it's cooler factor".

The bayonets, obviously, are a non-starter, how that's even considered, let alone allowed, is beyond me,
but in the choice between a 2-lb plastic facsimile and a 12 pound "deactivated" weapon (which if nothing
else makes a nice baseball bat) the plastic should win every time, and whomever is making the "use these"
decision needs to consider both the situation and the optics.

There's that word again. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

from > 3 ft, a Drill America M-1 and a Springfield Armory M-1 are the same thing..  So much for "optics."  From 50 ft, that "taped up wooden shape we use to practice with" is an "assault rifle." 

I don't disagree that the plastic Drill Americas are just as good. Heck, from a "dealing with a legit but deactivated firearm" or "dealing with a plastic simulacrum" standpoint, the DAs win, too. Nobody ever said "Now I have to worry about my plastic firearm being used to shoot someone cuz it got stolen out of the back of the CAP van.."

We have 2 in my unit, even. They're great (and still "tired arms" heavy!)

You're right, there's no need to use deactivated when there's alternatives, but certainly deactivated is *allowed*.  Are there alternatives? Yes. Should you lean towards those? Yes.

Again, at a certain point, deactivated, filled-plugged, whatever, its still just a 8-9 lb baseball bat / flying object. The higher probability of "problems" is not from "Cadet Timmy somehow produced a firing pin for an M-1 Garand, somehow managed to install it in the deactivated firearm using a paperclip and chewing gum, then proceeded to somehow obtain ammunition, laying waste to the spectators along the parade route," but more likely "Cadet Timmy flipped rifle into Cadet Sally's head" or "Cadet Tommy dropped buttstock of rifle on foot, fracturing ring and pinky toes."

For the record, a lot of activities do use key-control and other measures in regards to COVs, and the safety issue,
after several serious mishaps, is why ATVs and gators aren't supposed to be allowed in CAP functions except
wing or higher activities with explicit permission (something increasingly ignored as we get distance from the aging directive).

Great redirect here.

What I meant, and you know I meant, is that if we apply this same level of convoluted edge logic to other circumstances in the organization we'd have to go to unwieldy lengths because of a perceived edge case. "We need to bring a Class 3 safe to put the COV keys in to keep them away from the cadets."  Right now, in most places, we literally leave the keys to the COVs in the unlocked keybox (or hung on the cuphooks behind the Transportation Officer's door) because its too big of a pain to have to constantly lock and unlock the box everytime SM Smith has to run the COV to the water point.

But what if Cadet Timmy somehow obtains the keys and somehow escapes supervision and somehow manages to drive off in a COV?  Thats yet another distraction you better start worrying about, right?

"We've decided we can't let cadets ride in the front seat, or in the first row of seats, in the 12 passenger vans because there is a remote but non-zero possibility that one of them will flip out and grab the wheel, causing the van to careen into a school bus full of nuns!"

Where does the logic exercise exercise in finding the remotest possibility of the least possible circumstance end?

"Hypothetically, Cadet Bergman was unhappy that his fellow squadron mates made fun of him for refusing to wear the Lindbergh Ribbon, so he decided he'd have the last laugh while the squadron van was driving across Hudson River..."   

(there is a term for finding the most minute of the most minute of the tiniest chance of the least possible circumstance that  won't happen in a million years, and I don't recall what it is, but I'm pretty sure CAP-Talk knows *exactly* what it is.)

[Mitchell 1969]

A few years ago I was active as a volunteer with the National Park Service at Fort Hancock. The organization I worked for was restoring Battery Gunnison to what it looked like during 1943. We wore the Army uniform of that era, and carried weapons. Some of us, myself included, did not have licenses. The commander owned several 1903 Springfields, and we used them. Of course we had bolts with the firing pin removed. Barrels were not plugged, and we could insert live ammo. We used blank rounds, that is, one of the members took shells, punched holes in them, and put the bullets in it. The firing pin could be attached to the bolt, reinserted, and the rifle could be fired. This organization had been working for 4 or 5 years, made considerable investments in the battery. Among it, a new complete electrical installation duplicating that of 1943, a working fire control telephone switchboard with about 15 working 1940 telephones, and other items.

National Park Police objected to those of us with no licenses carrying those weapons. The Springfield owner had to buy bolts, file off the part where the firing pin sat, and paint part of the bolt red.

That is what "deactivated" meant to the National Park Police.

More likely it was the definition made up by somebody at one unit of the Park Police during that slice of time. Which isn't even the least bit related to CAP.

On another note - I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what sort of "license" was required to carry a M-1.

[Mitchell 1969]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

Indeed they will.

I just watched a 5:45 long video on how to disassemble & reassemble the bolt on an M-1.  My takeaway (something I didn't know before):  You actually need tools to put the firing pin into the bolt of an M-1.  (my experience is with the M-16A1 musket, which I could have broken down into its component parts in about a minute with no tools, and probably could put the firing pin into while actually marching in a parade), so I learned something new today.

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Matter of fact, replace "firing pin" with "keys" and "rifle" with "Air Force vehicle" and I can tell you a 34 year old story about 15 year old C/SSgt careening around the ramp of an Air National Guard base in the middle of the night in a Follow Me truck.

And thats not hyperbole.

Back when JROTC was a recruiting stream and had actual military weapons issued, the standard weapon was the M-1. We had 03's for drill team practice, as they tended to get battered when learning new routines. Platoon leaders, Company XOs and Company First Sergeants had M-1 Carbines. Company Commanders and Bn staff had, believe it or not, .45s. I actually got to carry my .45 twice - they were a bit nervous about 17 and 18 year olds with them, but the rifles were drawn from the armory on campus at least twice a week.

The firing pins were all in a safe. Under Army regulation, state law and local ordinance, that made the firearms "deactivated." The firing pins were retained in case the army called the weapons back (which eventually happened).

The question was asked (I know, because I asked it) about the possibility of simply getting a firing pin. That earned me a lesson on how to do it. It was a pain. In fact, our NCO instructor said "If they call these weapons back, I'll probably trip down the stairs or fall down from a ladder. Somebody else can replace those things while I'm in the hospital. I'm not doing it."

Nobody there had any memories of anybody ever inserting a firing pin into any of them, going back to the 50's.

[TheSkyHornet]

All of this dialogue is exactly why we need to constantly teach cadets, as well as senior members, to treat any firearm (whether deactivated or facsimile) like a real weapon. It is never to be pointed at someone. Muzzle awareness must be maintained at all times. Before "playing" with it, check the chamber and make sure it's clear (even if it's a fake weapon).

I had cadets practicing rifle drill one day and saw one of them with his chin resting on his hands cupping the muzzle. I gave a little speech on how bad habits get created when screwing around during pretend time, and what's going to happen is you'll forget that the real gun you come across someday isn't fake, and it's going to go off.

You need to instill repetition on safety protocols.

[NIN]

All of this dialogue is exactly why we need to constantly teach cadets, as well as senior members, to treat any firearm (whether deactivated or facsimile) like a real weapon. It is never to be pointed at someone. Muzzle awareness must be maintained at all times. Before "playing" with it, check the chamber and make sure it's clear (even if it's a fake weapon).

I had cadets practicing rifle drill one day and saw one of them with his chin resting on his hands cupping the muzzle. I gave a little speech on how bad habits get created when screwing around during pretend time, and what's going to happen is you'll forget that the real gun you come across someday isn't fake, and it's going to go off.

You need to instill repetition on safety protocols.

I spent 7 years in the Army Cadets, and our "ranger school" advanced program usually had the "rubber duck" M-4s. They carried those things day in and day out, maintained security on them while at chow, and were constantly on the watch for muzzle & handling discipline, did the clearing barrel at the DFAC, etc, just like real weapons.  It only took about a day and a half with those things, and they were *really* attuned to making sure they handled them correctly. 

During AT in 2012, I took a number of the Ranger course cadets to a funeral for a retired USAR Lt Col where we were asked to provide a pallbearers, a firing detail and taps. My NCOIC, SFC Sullivan, was also the ranger course instructor and he handled the "detail" aspect: the pallbearers, flag folding, firing detail, etc.  At one point, while practicing with the actual operable blank firing (non-rubber duck) weapons we were going to be using, one of the firing party cadets was careless with the muzzle.  No question, no argument: We had a new cadet on the firing party inside of 10 minutes. Sure, we had to re-practice the entire sequence another 10-12 times, but there is an absolute reason for that level of safe handling.   I didn't question it one iota: "Its your show, Sergeant. I'm here to do the part on the behalf of the president and a grateful nation. You have the 'detail' , and if you say its this way, then thats the way it is."

[Eclipse]

Noticed this today in relation to the HG cord thread:

CAPM 39-1 Page 104

"9.6.1.3. Bayonets, swords, or sabers will not be used under any circumstances."

The same prohibition can be found in CAPP 52-8 on Page 6.