Integrity question

[a2capt]

LOL .. "worse".. one family with several members in CAP .. when I commented that even one more joined, the reply was along the lines of "yes, I had to join because if we wanted to do anything as a family, the rest of them were always at some CAP event on that weekend.. so I figured .. "

There's nothing wrong with any of it, if it's not being abused, and that same kind of abuse can happen without the relationship. Go after the problem, and you'll be fine.

[Walkman]

.. one family with several members in CAP ..

Right now in my unit we have:
Grandpa
His Son-in-law with his four kids
Grandpa's Grandaughter from another line

For a total of 7. They are all neighbors. And they are all awesome.

[Rosco P]

really,  I mean does it matter how long I have been in CAP? How about 9 years. Yes I have been 9 years and I have even attended region staff college and that was one of the questions that came about. How much does CAP knows about it since no one will spit upwards and or is it accepted as a behavior and silent practice. The question really becomes about integrity of all those who allows it to happen just because there is no regulation and is it fair to the rest of the cadets and how much conflict of interest there is....

[Eclipse]

Yes, your longevity in CAP as well as your scope of involvement matters in this context because
it will color your perceptions.  Members who serve and stay at the unit level tend to get a perspective
that their unit is "typical", for better or worse.

For the record it is an "accepted behavior" and it is not a "silent practice", primarily since there
is no reason to hide things as it's not against any regulations.  It's not like being the cousin of
the County Treasurer and staying on the "down low" when you get a patronage job.

There is no general integrity issue having members in the same unit, there is plenty of favoritism and
cliques in CAP to go around absent of family ties.  There's also the issue that when people volunteer
their time, they want to enjoy the effort, which means they will tend to lean towards friends and
compatriots before inviting outsiders, this is understandable, and a line a good commander must always walk.

There is only a conflict of interest when there is a conflict of interest.

And in those cases, there is a command structure and a compliant process to deal with it.

If it doesn't affect you directly, then you don't likely have grounds for a complaint, and if those affected
choose not to pursue the process, then that's on them.

If it does affect you directly, and you have chosen not to file a complaint, then it's on you.

[Walkman]

I know several husband/wife members and haven't personally seen anything that would call out their integrity. It's a very broad statement to say that any family members that join together are all going to play the "favorites" game and that they are without core values. Can it affect the unit dynamic? Sure, if people make poor decisions. But you can't paint everyone with such a broad brush and give it dark undertones. My experience to this point (~7 years in 2 wings) hasn't shown such a negative trend.

[Panache]

I can tell you that they rather be at CAP than the boys scouts and the reason is because they have their own personal agenda.

I suspect that "Mom & Dad in CAP" aren't the only ones with a personal agenda here...

[lordmonar]

really,  I mean does it matter how long I have been in CAP? How about 9 years. Yes I have been 9 years and I have even attended region staff college and that was one of the questions that came about. How much does CAP knows about it since no one will spit upwards and or is it accepted as a behavior and silent practice. The question really becomes about integrity of all those who allows it to happen just because there is no regulation and is it fair to the rest of the cadets and how much conflict of interest there is....

You are absolutely right....it is about integrity.

But you are assuming that we have to treat ALL family members as lacking in integrity.

They key to the "problem" is oversight and individuals using their integrity of not remaining silent and reporting abuses up the chain.

I know that there have been and will always be parents who think they can 'bend" the rules or do what ever they want to help out little Johnny.  But you are proposing a rule that would create a lot of unintentional consequences.

Like I asked before.....how would this new rule read?

Does Cadet Johnny get barred from leadership slots because his parents have high leadership in the squadron/group/wing....or do we forego the services of able, dedicated and willing SM's because their kids are in the program?

Where do we draw the line?

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

I'm willing to entertain your idea......but I need something more concreate then "there needs to be a rule."

[Eclipse]

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

An admin, personnel, or test control officer could do the same or more background "damage" for their kid or friends as a CC could do in the light of day.

[lordmonar]

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

An admin, personnel, or test control officer could do the same or more background "damage" for their kid or friends as a CC could do in the light of day.

Agree....we discussed this before about the unwritten rule about parents proctoring their own cadet's test.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How can you mentor a cadet when the parent has a either a higher rank or a staff position??

I do it on a weekly basis.
The CC's son is an Airman.
The Deputy CDC has a C/Chief daughter.
The CDC has a C/Capt C/CC son.

I'm just a lowly Leadership Officer/Testing Officer doing my job.

[capcadet16]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT I have that problem in my squadron, there should be some regular promotions that don't happen beacause the cadet likes their current position.

[lordmonar]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT I have that problem in my squadron, there should be some regular promotions that don't happen beacause the cadet likes their current position.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you advocating that "I like being the First Sergeant....so I don't want to be promoted to 2d LT" or variations on that theme?

[capcadet16]

No, I was saying it also happens im my squadron, sorry for not being clear enough.

[Storm Chaser]

I think we already have enough regulations to ensure a fair treatment of all members. I don't believe we need additional regulation or, worst, a blanket prohibition. That would adversely affect many units, especially small ones.

[Larry Mangum]

I have been in CAP for 19 years, and made it a rule early on to not serve in the same unit as my kids, after I had been in several years.  That rule had to go away for me almost 4 years ago, when I was asked to take over a squadron or it faced closing.  That resulted in me commanding a unit, with 4 of my kids in it. I dealt with it by making sure my staff knew that none of them were to be treated any different than any other cadet. I also excused myself from setting on any review board that they came before, both for promotion and leadership position.

It meant going with the review board recommendation, even when I knew it was not the best choice. But that was necessary to ensure that not only the senior staff but the cadets knew that I took our core values seriously and that I expected everyone to live up to those values.

[lordmonar]

As an integrity issue......there are ways to not only be unbiased and fair....but to appear unbiased and fair.

As a great rule of thumb...I got not problem with a "rule of thumb" parents should not supervise, should not proctor tests, should not make promotion/decoration approvals....for their kids.

But there is a big difference between "it's a good idea" and making it mandatory.   Just as in Larry's case......if it was Mandatory.....the unit would have folded.   If we can't make Larry's kid the C/CC because Larry is the DCC or CC.....then are we not harming Larry's kid by denying him the leadership opportunity?    If we make Larry's kid the C/CC does Larry have to step down as DCC or CC?   That means we may be putting a less then optimal individual as commander.   That does not sound right.

But we have in place a very good IMHO system to make and receive redress for grievances.   In stead of making new rules that just tie our hands in places where the current rules are working....let's just use the system as is.

If you think something unethical is going on in your unit, if you think that you are not being treated fairly, report it up the chain of command.  If we got a parent CC/DCC who has lost touch with their ethical guide stones.....we got a wing/group commander and staff who can come down and observe what is going on and fix it.

But they can't fix what they don't know about.

[Garibaldi]

I may have said it in another thread, but my dad and I were in the same unit. In fact, he transferred in from another unit.

I was a typical teenager, full of piss and vinegar.

My dad made it absolutely clear to me, and to the other cadets on staff, that when we got out of the car for a meeting, or an activity, we were not related in any way, shape or form. They were not to run to him with their problems with me (of which there were plenty), and I was not to run to him for help whenever I felt "mistreated" due to my attitude (this was back wayyyyyy before CPPT, when we would "creatively" deal with discipline issues ourselves). Until we got back in the car to go home, I had no father, and he had no son.

Of course, they went to him all the time with "horror stories" about what I did and what I said, and he always told them the same thing: deal with it yourselves. Just don't kill him, because of the paperwork.

I never, not once, told him what went on, mainly because of it being my fault that they "were hard on me". And I will not.

My point is, you can be involved but not too involved. I do not like parents having positions of authority over their kids, or in positions where they can directly influence their careers.

Shall I relate the story of the 15 year old Spaatz cadet and her DCC mom or not, again?

Two extremes. Complete "indifference" versus complete indulgence.

[Heavy Flying Guy]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

[Tim Medeiros]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

There was a point in time when one could join as a cadet as long as you were in 6th grade.  We had some cadets in the program as young as 10.  Additionally, rules have since been clarified that the 56 day wait time is between achievements AND awards, before it was just between achievements (by the letter of the reg).  Even without a CDC mom, one could earn the Spaatz Award by 15 with time like that.

[Flying Pig]

I work for an LE agency where all the brass seems to be married to each other and the Sheriffs son is a detective!    As far as CAP goes, when I was a cadet i was part of two squadrons... Sq45 and Sq 59 in CAWG.   Just because of length of time they had been there, at one point each one was commanded by parent/child combos.   In my experience with both, I was personal friends with all of them and their kids got NO love when it came to CAP.  So individual experiences may vary.

After my time as a Sq Commander was up, my main motivation for staying in CAP was that my son was a cadet.  He later decided CAP wasn't for him and that pretty much sealed the fate of my involvement with CAP for a while.  Had he stayed in, Im sure at some point he would have been a Cadet Commander.  I could have easily been the DCC or other staff position regarding the cadet program.   The reasons arent mysterious.  As a father/son combo, we would have been VERY active in CAP.  Every activity I went to as a Senior, I would have exhausted every possible avenue to make sure he could attend and I would have made sure he attended every cadet activity possible.  All of that equals a pretty diverse and experienced cadet.  Probably a lot more so than a cadet who's parents view CAP as boy scouts.