Integrity question

[Rosco P]

Some squadrons have parent involvement. However, how can you raise the question of integrity when the parents are the senior members, their kid is the cadet commander and you have some other parents\SM waiting in line for their kids to take over? Do you have that in your squadrons?? why does CAP allows that?

[a2capt]

"waiting in line".. as in a sense of entitlement? Most cadet/parent combo's I've know, their cadets have had it -harder- just to stay away from any appearance of nepotism.

As for "allowing" it, I wouldn't say there is anything that supports it, but you need to do two things. Document everything and be absolutely sure it's not just because you think "you" should have "xxx" position instead.

[Panache]

I'm in a squadron where the Cadet Commander is the Commander's son, and the Squadron CC has made it very very clear that there will be no special privileges for his son other than that which would normally be afforded a Cadet Captain and Cadet Commander, and if we ever get any disrespect from the Cadet Commander, to let him know and it will be handled.  (Not that the Cadet Commander has ever done so.)

I agree with a2capt, I think most go out of their way to avoid even a hint of nepotism.  That being said, I"m sure there are problem cases here and there.

[dwb]

Some squadrons have parent involvement. However, how can you raise the question of integrity when the parents are the senior members, their kid is the cadet commander and you have some other parents\SM waiting in line for their kids to take over? Do you have that in your squadrons?? why does CAP allows that?

Well, one way to handle this is to avoid a single decision maker for staff positions. Ultimately, every staff member serves at the discretion of the unit commander, but you can mitigate some of the conflicts of interest by using selection committees for staff positions, milestone promotions, etc. Use a variety of people for the selection committees, including people of no relation to the cadet. You can even use Group/Wing/Region staffers if you have any that live in your local area.

When I put committees together, I always pick as much variety as possible for the members. To give you a Wing-level example, when we selected our cadet of the year, the committee members came from all over the state, had all different backgrounds, had a 30+ year age range from the youngest to the oldest, and we included a mix of male and female officers. That's more difficult to do at the local level, but it's not impossible, especially if you have Group/Wing folks that live nearby.

A lot of people join CAP as a family, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. The unit leadership just needs to be mindful of this, and account for it by recusing themselves in decisions that directly affect their kids, etc. It's not required by regulation per se, but it's a good idea.

Also, nobody should be "waiting in line" for staff appointments. No one is entitled to the C/CC position, and the culture of the unit should be such that the cadet staff selections are based on merit. This isn't a university, you don't get legacy preferences.

[MIKE]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while their little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

[lordmonar]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while there little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

Then the small units would not exist.

Secondly.....it is just CAP.....and cadet program at that.

[JeffDG]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while their little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

So, you support limiting the careers of senior members who happen to recruit their children into the cadet program?

[Eclipse]

This is another higher HQ failing.

Good CCs will be good CCs regardless of who is under their command, and bad ones will be bad.

I've seen the "family units" that run roughshod over other members and cause people to quit, and
"family units" where everyone is held to the same standard and they are a credit and an asset to CAP.

In the former, it's able to continue because the next higher HQ has decided to allow it to happen / continue and
doesn't care, or doesn't have the where-with-all to intervene.

[lordmonar]

This is another higher HQ failing.

Good CCs will be good CCs regardless of who is under their command, and bad ones will be bad.

I've seen the "family units" that run roughshod over other members and cause people to quit, and
"family units" where everyone is held to the same standard and they are a credit and an asset to CAP.

In the former, it's able to continue because the next higher HQ has decided to allow it to happen / continue and
doesn't care, or doesn't have the where-with-all to intervene.

And that by extension is the problem with any unit that "goes off the reservation" be it on the ES, CP, uniform or what have you.

If higher HQ is not making periodic visits to the unit (not inspections!) and watching what is going on....then problems fester and turn into major problems.

But No.....there is no need for a regulation that says "SM X can't be the CC because of little Johnny is a cadet".

[Walkman]

Does your unit have term limits for c/CC? We have a policy from the previous CC that each c/CC serves a one year term to make sure the opportunity for leadership is available.

[a2capt]

Typical for us is 6-8 months or so for a Cadet Commander, and it works quite well, with school schedules and other commitments.

[HGjunkie]

If my new staff instructions are approved, my unit will be doing 1yr C/CC stints.

[Rosco P]

I totally agree with Mike it needs to be regulated and not open to interpretation. It is a human nature to provide protection and give the best position to our own kids. However in the process we tend to forget or ignore that there could be others that could do better job. Come on like I said it is human nature. If we have clear rules of engagement their very margin of error when it comes down to nepotism. Don't get me wrong there are some parent that are good to make a difference when they have a staff position. But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

[Eclipse]

But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

That after honest consideration they are the best candidate?

Are you discounting the possibility that with a Unit CC as their parent, a given cadet might be more ensconced and involved in CAP then the average
cadet whose parents don't even know what CAP is?

My wife is a committee member of my kids' Boy Scout troop.  They are much more involved, and more properly, then 1/2 the kids in
their troop because she takes the time to find out about the merit badge clinics, actually read the rules and regs, and is generally more
knowledgeable then most parents who are barely slowing down enough to let their kids out for the meeting.

She's also there for every meeting, which means so are they, and things like "following up and through" are accomplished.  It would be the same
case if I was a CAP unit CC and my kids were in the unit - I'm the most knowledgeable person in the room CAP-wise (in theory), and so I'm going to
hold my kids to the same expectations.  They should, by design, be the top-tier cadets of that unit.

Especially considering the volunteer paradigm, and how short-handed CAP units are across the board, anything that would artificially
limit participation would shoot CAP in the foot. 

"Why did the unit fold?  Didn't Jim want the job, and wasn't he a Spaatz and a Wing-level DCP with two commands under his belt?"

"Yeah, but his kids are in, and he didn't want to limit what they could do, so they just moved to another squadron..."

If there are integrity or nepotism issues, that's a command failing.  There are plenty of places the program needs more structure and
less gray, but this is just absolving higher HQ from doing their jobs.

[lordmonar]

I totally agree with Mike it needs to be regulated and not open to interpretation. It is a human nature to provide protection and give the best position to our own kids. However in the process we tend to forget or ignore that there could be others that could do better job. Come on like I said it is human nature. If we have clear rules of engagement their very margin of error when it comes down to nepotism. Don't get me wrong there are some parent that are good to make a difference when they have a staff position. But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

So.....how would that regulation read?

Capt Gooddad's son move up the ranks and is now in position to be the C/CC.  So do we say Capt Gooddad you got to step down from being commander or do we say Cadet Gooddad you can't be C/CC.....sorry that's the way it's got to be....because we just don't trust your dad to be fair.

The message we send to the community is that we try to put the best resource in the best position to give the best CP experience to everyone in the program.

Sure.....it does not work out that way.  But oversight it the answer not just some regulation.   It is hard enough to find good people to volunteer their time for this program.   Group and Wing should be monitoring all squadrons to make sure that they are doing the program as written and providing the best Cadet Program to all of their cadets....no matter who they are.

[/rant]

[MSG Mac]

In my experience the Cadet Staff is usually chosen by a review board that interviews each cadet for a position. The Command Staff is usually done by the DCC and the Senior Staff, Other staff members by the selected Command staff. Can there be a question of integrity when Mom or Dad is the Commander, certainly, but no more than a Wing King having his wife or children serving as Squadron Commanders or even being cadets under his command. I have even seen a Wing CC step down to be succeeded by his wife, unusual yes, lack of integrity? No. 

[Walkman]

If CC Dad just walks in one night and says "Hey, my son is the new c/CC" without any other process, yep that's a bad deal. BUT, if CC Dad is a good leader, involves a review board with other leaders & cadet staff and the child comes out as the best choice, then I've got no problems.

I would think that a good CC is going to have earned a reputation for doing this the right way and if their kid did end up in a leadership spot, people wouldn't automatically assume the worst.

[Rosco P]

It makes it worst when both parents are in CAP. I have see it and it does not look good. Specially other parents will join in expecting the same. If you ask me, only if you ask me....that is the wrong way to attract senior members, but it has happened before and it is still happening. Specially when parents get together and they think they know what CAP is all about. I can tell you that they rather be at CAP than the boys scouts and the reason is because they have their own personal agenda. I think that is the root of the issue and the integrity. How can you mentor a cadet when the parent has a either a higher rank or a staff position?? This is not about good commander or how hard the cadet get it. It is about a conflict of interest and proper training

[Eclipse]

It makes it worst when both parents are in CAP.

"Worse"? Seriously, what's your real issue here?

Now both parents aren't allowed to be in CAP either?

There's apparently no room for a family to work and play together, and actually be knowledgeable and capable?

This is not about good commander or how hard the cadet get it. It is about a conflict of interest and proper training

Which one is that again?

Another question?   How long have yo been in CAP and what's your scope of involvement?
Are you upset because of a specific situation related to someone you know personally?

Like any large organization, there are plenty of "klinkers", but these are the exceptions, not the rules.
I know far more one-off members who are useless or worse then families where the relationships caused issues.

[Walkman]

Sounds like that there was a bad experience with a couple that really ran roughshod over things. Not entirely inconceivable.

My wife has been thinking about joining off and on. She most likely will wait until she's finished with school or when our youngest son is old enough in a few years to become a cadet. I'm looking forward to sharing CAP with her.

[a2capt]

LOL .. "worse".. one family with several members in CAP .. when I commented that even one more joined, the reply was along the lines of "yes, I had to join because if we wanted to do anything as a family, the rest of them were always at some CAP event on that weekend.. so I figured .. "

There's nothing wrong with any of it, if it's not being abused, and that same kind of abuse can happen without the relationship. Go after the problem, and you'll be fine.

[Walkman]

.. one family with several members in CAP ..

Right now in my unit we have:
Grandpa
His Son-in-law with his four kids
Grandpa's Grandaughter from another line

For a total of 7. They are all neighbors. And they are all awesome.

[Rosco P]

really,  I mean does it matter how long I have been in CAP? How about 9 years. Yes I have been 9 years and I have even attended region staff college and that was one of the questions that came about. How much does CAP knows about it since no one will spit upwards and or is it accepted as a behavior and silent practice. The question really becomes about integrity of all those who allows it to happen just because there is no regulation and is it fair to the rest of the cadets and how much conflict of interest there is....

[Eclipse]

Yes, your longevity in CAP as well as your scope of involvement matters in this context because
it will color your perceptions.  Members who serve and stay at the unit level tend to get a perspective
that their unit is "typical", for better or worse.

For the record it is an "accepted behavior" and it is not a "silent practice", primarily since there
is no reason to hide things as it's not against any regulations.  It's not like being the cousin of
the County Treasurer and staying on the "down low" when you get a patronage job.

There is no general integrity issue having members in the same unit, there is plenty of favoritism and
cliques in CAP to go around absent of family ties.  There's also the issue that when people volunteer
their time, they want to enjoy the effort, which means they will tend to lean towards friends and
compatriots before inviting outsiders, this is understandable, and a line a good commander must always walk.

There is only a conflict of interest when there is a conflict of interest.

And in those cases, there is a command structure and a compliant process to deal with it.

If it doesn't affect you directly, then you don't likely have grounds for a complaint, and if those affected
choose not to pursue the process, then that's on them.

If it does affect you directly, and you have chosen not to file a complaint, then it's on you.

[Walkman]

I know several husband/wife members and haven't personally seen anything that would call out their integrity. It's a very broad statement to say that any family members that join together are all going to play the "favorites" game and that they are without core values. Can it affect the unit dynamic? Sure, if people make poor decisions. But you can't paint everyone with such a broad brush and give it dark undertones. My experience to this point (~7 years in 2 wings) hasn't shown such a negative trend.

[Panache]

I can tell you that they rather be at CAP than the boys scouts and the reason is because they have their own personal agenda.

I suspect that "Mom & Dad in CAP" aren't the only ones with a personal agenda here...

[lordmonar]

really,  I mean does it matter how long I have been in CAP? How about 9 years. Yes I have been 9 years and I have even attended region staff college and that was one of the questions that came about. How much does CAP knows about it since no one will spit upwards and or is it accepted as a behavior and silent practice. The question really becomes about integrity of all those who allows it to happen just because there is no regulation and is it fair to the rest of the cadets and how much conflict of interest there is....

You are absolutely right....it is about integrity.

But you are assuming that we have to treat ALL family members as lacking in integrity.

They key to the "problem" is oversight and individuals using their integrity of not remaining silent and reporting abuses up the chain.

I know that there have been and will always be parents who think they can 'bend" the rules or do what ever they want to help out little Johnny.  But you are proposing a rule that would create a lot of unintentional consequences.

Like I asked before.....how would this new rule read?

Does Cadet Johnny get barred from leadership slots because his parents have high leadership in the squadron/group/wing....or do we forego the services of able, dedicated and willing SM's because their kids are in the program?

Where do we draw the line?

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

I'm willing to entertain your idea......but I need something more concreate then "there needs to be a rule."

[Eclipse]

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

An admin, personnel, or test control officer could do the same or more background "damage" for their kid or friends as a CC could do in the light of day.

[lordmonar]

Is it just the CC slot or Leadership Officers and Deputy Commander for Cadets too?   What about if they are a wing/group staff officer?   Little Johnny can't be an Encampment flight commander or higher because his mom is the Encampment Director or Chief TAC Officer?

An admin, personnel, or test control officer could do the same or more background "damage" for their kid or friends as a CC could do in the light of day.

Agree....we discussed this before about the unwritten rule about parents proctoring their own cadet's test.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How can you mentor a cadet when the parent has a either a higher rank or a staff position??

I do it on a weekly basis.
The CC's son is an Airman.
The Deputy CDC has a C/Chief daughter.
The CDC has a C/Capt C/CC son.

I'm just a lowly Leadership Officer/Testing Officer doing my job.

[capcadet16]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT I have that problem in my squadron, there should be some regular promotions that don't happen beacause the cadet likes their current position.

[lordmonar]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT I have that problem in my squadron, there should be some regular promotions that don't happen beacause the cadet likes their current position.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you advocating that "I like being the First Sergeant....so I don't want to be promoted to 2d LT" or variations on that theme?

[capcadet16]

No, I was saying it also happens im my squadron, sorry for not being clear enough.

[Storm Chaser]

I think we already have enough regulations to ensure a fair treatment of all members. I don't believe we need additional regulation or, worst, a blanket prohibition. That would adversely affect many units, especially small ones.

[Larry Mangum]

I have been in CAP for 19 years, and made it a rule early on to not serve in the same unit as my kids, after I had been in several years.  That rule had to go away for me almost 4 years ago, when I was asked to take over a squadron or it faced closing.  That resulted in me commanding a unit, with 4 of my kids in it. I dealt with it by making sure my staff knew that none of them were to be treated any different than any other cadet. I also excused myself from setting on any review board that they came before, both for promotion and leadership position.

It meant going with the review board recommendation, even when I knew it was not the best choice. But that was necessary to ensure that not only the senior staff but the cadets knew that I took our core values seriously and that I expected everyone to live up to those values.

[lordmonar]

As an integrity issue......there are ways to not only be unbiased and fair....but to appear unbiased and fair.

As a great rule of thumb...I got not problem with a "rule of thumb" parents should not supervise, should not proctor tests, should not make promotion/decoration approvals....for their kids.

But there is a big difference between "it's a good idea" and making it mandatory.   Just as in Larry's case......if it was Mandatory.....the unit would have folded.   If we can't make Larry's kid the C/CC because Larry is the DCC or CC.....then are we not harming Larry's kid by denying him the leadership opportunity?    If we make Larry's kid the C/CC does Larry have to step down as DCC or CC?   That means we may be putting a less then optimal individual as commander.   That does not sound right.

But we have in place a very good IMHO system to make and receive redress for grievances.   In stead of making new rules that just tie our hands in places where the current rules are working....let's just use the system as is.

If you think something unethical is going on in your unit, if you think that you are not being treated fairly, report it up the chain of command.  If we got a parent CC/DCC who has lost touch with their ethical guide stones.....we got a wing/group commander and staff who can come down and observe what is going on and fix it.

But they can't fix what they don't know about.

[Garibaldi]

I may have said it in another thread, but my dad and I were in the same unit. In fact, he transferred in from another unit.

I was a typical teenager, full of piss and vinegar.

My dad made it absolutely clear to me, and to the other cadets on staff, that when we got out of the car for a meeting, or an activity, we were not related in any way, shape or form. They were not to run to him with their problems with me (of which there were plenty), and I was not to run to him for help whenever I felt "mistreated" due to my attitude (this was back wayyyyyy before CPPT, when we would "creatively" deal with discipline issues ourselves). Until we got back in the car to go home, I had no father, and he had no son.

Of course, they went to him all the time with "horror stories" about what I did and what I said, and he always told them the same thing: deal with it yourselves. Just don't kill him, because of the paperwork.

I never, not once, told him what went on, mainly because of it being my fault that they "were hard on me". And I will not.

My point is, you can be involved but not too involved. I do not like parents having positions of authority over their kids, or in positions where they can directly influence their careers.

Shall I relate the story of the 15 year old Spaatz cadet and her DCC mom or not, again?

Two extremes. Complete "indifference" versus complete indulgence.

[Heavy Flying Guy]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

[Tim Medeiros]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

There was a point in time when one could join as a cadet as long as you were in 6th grade.  We had some cadets in the program as young as 10.  Additionally, rules have since been clarified that the 56 day wait time is between achievements AND awards, before it was just between achievements (by the letter of the reg).  Even without a CDC mom, one could earn the Spaatz Award by 15 with time like that.

[Flying Pig]

I work for an LE agency where all the brass seems to be married to each other and the Sheriffs son is a detective!    As far as CAP goes, when I was a cadet i was part of two squadrons... Sq45 and Sq 59 in CAWG.   Just because of length of time they had been there, at one point each one was commanded by parent/child combos.   In my experience with both, I was personal friends with all of them and their kids got NO love when it came to CAP.  So individual experiences may vary.

After my time as a Sq Commander was up, my main motivation for staying in CAP was that my son was a cadet.  He later decided CAP wasn't for him and that pretty much sealed the fate of my involvement with CAP for a while.  Had he stayed in, Im sure at some point he would have been a Cadet Commander.  I could have easily been the DCC or other staff position regarding the cadet program.   The reasons arent mysterious.  As a father/son combo, we would have been VERY active in CAP.  Every activity I went to as a Senior, I would have exhausted every possible avenue to make sure he could attend and I would have made sure he attended every cadet activity possible.  All of that equals a pretty diverse and experienced cadet.  Probably a lot more so than a cadet who's parents view CAP as boy scouts. 

[NIN]

An admin, personnel, or test control officer could do the same or more background "damage" for their kid or friends as a CC could do in the light of day.

Agree....we discussed this before about the unwritten rule about parents proctoring their own cadet's test.

Unwritten? Heck, my squadron's testing policy actually said that a testing officer could not proctor his or her own children's tests (see attached).

We also had some checks and balances built in there to prevent testing strangeness, but they weren't 100% automatic or obvious. At one point my Deputy for Cadets, doing a periodic supervisory "once over" of the testing logs and documentation, noticed that there were some irregularities in the ways tests were being administered. 

We looked a little closer and noted that over about a 9 month period, there were over 90 tests administered (logged) to the cadets of the squadron, and of those, nearly 40 had some kind of "issue" (not on a testing night, the testing officer administered a test to his kids, the test headers were missing out of the personnel file, etc.)   The TO acted like it was "no big deal," but when I showed him what I'd found, he knew that I'd caught him trying to pull a fast one.  Cadets testing on weekends & non-meeting weeknights, etc.  Strangely, the cadets testing on "off" nights were either his kids or his son's girlfriend. Curious. (in one instance, the testing officer's son took a test and the testing officer's initials on the log were blank. The TO swore on his mother's grave claimed the alternate testing officer administered that one, but on closer examination of our sign-in sheets, the ATO was not at that meeting that night. Always sign in, folks!!)

Suffice to say, he stopped being the testing officer.

[Eclipse]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

There was a point in time when one could join as a cadet as long as you were in 6th grade.  We had some cadets in the program as young as 10.  Additionally, rules have since been clarified that the 56 day wait time is between achievements AND awards, before it was just between achievements (by the letter of the reg).  Even without a CDC mom, one could earn the Spaatz Award by 15 with time like that.

The youngest Spaatz cadet in CAP history was 13.  She joined with the homeschool 6th-grade waiver and fast-promoted before the 56-day rule. 

A one-time special case we won't see again.

[Garibaldi]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

Back in Arkansas, we had a mom/daughter team. The mom was all about aerospace education and got her daughter in as soon as she was able to. She promoted every 2 months. Like clockwork. 100% on all her exams. I was DCC at the time, and the mom was leadership officer.

She was a nightmare, to say the least. Everything she did, she did for further glory of her agenda. She got the cadet rolls up from 12 active to around 50 within a few months. Of course, they didn't last long.

Meanwhile, daughter was a nightmare to herself. Every time she was told to do something, she begrudgingly roller her eyes an gave attitude. At 13, she has become a C/MSGT, heading for her Mitchell

I had 2 cadets heading towards the same goal at the same time. They were outstanding cadets, headed to AFROTC in the fall, so getting their Mitchell would help immensely. Since she was also a testing officer, their SDAs were always wrong. Nothing right, do it over again. Meanwhile, daughter sails through her first one with no issues at all. I still have the paper copy somewhere.

Complaints arise about how they are being treated, CC is not backing me up at all. She has made the squadron look good, and having a young, shining example of cadethood as her daughter will be a good thing. She sails through the program, 100% on everything. EVERYTHING. And her attitude was regressing as fast as she was progressing.

I ended up quitting as DCC over this. Not getting backup, having everything I tried to do overruled "for the good of the outfit". She ended up taking over, and daughter became not only the first Spaatz cadet in the unit, but the youngest in Wing history.

ES was being shoved in a closet because every weekend she had something AE related going on, and "she didn't want to burn out the cadets." My aunt fanny.

Ends up, lots of bad things happen, daughter's attitude towards everything culminated in a chewing out by me, and me getting chewed out by the CC, over a flagrant safety violation (she decided to close the hangar door because the sun was in her eyes, and didn't follow any of the posted safety protocol, jeopardizing several cadets' lives). Mom was angry that I yelled at her little angel. So I left for 6 years.

I got my revenge. Her younger daughter eventually ended up a pot head, and the nightmare one became a lesbian, last I heard, way against the parents' religious sensibilities.

[PHall]

So how is the fact that she became a lesbian your revenge?  Please explain.

[THRAWN]

So how is the fact that she became a lesbian your revenge?  Please explain.

I think it has to do with the last line...karma and all that...

[Garibaldi]

So how is the fact that she became a lesbian your revenge?  Please explain.

I think it has to do with the last line...karma and all that...

Her fundamentally religious mother was adamantly against homosexuality, so not really MY revenge but karma biting her in the hoo ha

[PHall]

So how is the fact that she became a lesbian your revenge?  Please explain.

I think it has to do with the last line...karma and all that...

Her fundamentally religious mother was adamantly against homosexuality, so not really MY revenge but karma biting her in the hoo ha

You do know there are a number of gay people out there who are very religious, right?
As in ordained Minister religious...

[Garibaldi]

So how is the fact that she became a lesbian your revenge?  Please explain.

I think it has to do with the last line...karma and all that...

Her fundamentally religious mother was adamantly against homosexuality, so not really MY revenge but karma biting her in the hoo ha

Forget it. I am sorry I even went off on the subject in the first place.

[NIN]

Phil, most of the ultra-fundie religious types consider homosexuality to be an abomination. Therefore you don't tend to find a lot of tremendously fundamentalist religious types who are also gay.

There's a difference between being a right wing conservative and gay ( I know plenty, some are former cadets ), and some of the more extreme religious fundamentalism.  There just isn't any comparison.

Kind of like you don't find a lot of hardcore fundamentalist Islamic types who enjoy the occasional BLT...

I have seen the parental agenda pushers, the parent joins and their little angel can do no wrong, and they basically crap on everybody else.

Over the years, however, the number parents I've seen join who have been harder on their kid, and have gone out of their way to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, is far far higher than the number of people I have seen who tried to give their kid an improper leg up.

[Edit: Words are hard. Grammar. Spelling]

[LATORRECA]

This posting can be a little rough to follow, English is my second language, good luck.,

    I have seen two cases one good and one bad.
  When I was a cadet in the PR wing, I saw the son of the wing commander going trough the ranks so quick, that one day he was one rank and a month later was another. He also was one of the most decorated cadets, I ever seen. Take in count this is in 1994 no computers or e service was available. Eventually he never received the spatzz because he was never able to past the test and daddy couldn't influence that. The influence of his father reflect on the cadets attitudes, the cadet was arrogant, and had no leadership ability at all and his awards multiply every wing conference, I went. He won the cadet of the year for the wing while daddy was on the seat. What an influence!
   The second case took place in a composite squadron, SC. I was the DCC at the time and a family brought their two oldest sons. One was really great while the other was out of shape. After a while their parents got involved in the program and I was very clear with them, no favoritism will take place while I'm in charge of the cadet program.
   Time pass, the one out of shape was a little immature and I had my doubts on his physical shape and ability of him passing the CPFT. So, I did not recommend him for promotion and hold it. I did a CAP Form-50 on the cadet. I explain him in front of his parents, what his short falls were and what he need it to do in order to improve. Eventually the kid got promoted and better his attitude and physical fitness. A year later, I had to stepped down due to my military commitment. Before I left the unit, I brought the father whom at the time was my ADCC and I explained him, about been fair and no favoritism could take place. It was the way to go.
  3 years later, the two cadets are spatzz recipients but they fail, struggle, and suffer whoever they learned
Ll and put a lot of hard work into the program. Eventually the mother became the CC and the program kept flourishing with several Mitchell's and Earhart's. Also, the unit has flourish not just with in its own area but also in the wing and region. Both cadets have been in the units c/CC's whoever they have their fare share of complains and issues. However, the cadets work hard and nothing was given to them.
     The program can function with parents as CC's and c/CC. The program has it flaws but what those individuals need is mentoring as soon they come in. Seniors and cadets alike.  Good luck to all.

[Heavy Flying Guy]

15 year old Spaatz Cadet and DCC mom? That smells suspicious. Explain?

Back in Arkansas, we had a mom/daughter team. The mom was all about aerospace education and got her daughter in as soon as she was able to. She promoted every 2 months. Like clockwork. 100% on all her exams. I was DCC at the time, and the mom was leadership officer.

She was a nightmare, to say the least. Everything she did, she did for further glory of her agenda. She got the cadet rolls up from 12 active to around 50 within a few months. Of course, they didn't last long.

Meanwhile, daughter was a nightmare to herself. Every time she was told to do something, she begrudgingly roller her eyes an gave attitude. At 13, she has become a C/MSGT, heading for her Mitchell

I had 2 cadets heading towards the same goal at the same time. They were outstanding cadets, headed to AFROTC in the fall, so getting their Mitchell would help immensely. Since she was also a testing officer, their SDAs were always wrong. Nothing right, do it over again. Meanwhile, daughter sails through her first one with no issues at all. I still have the paper copy somewhere.

Complaints arise about how they are being treated, CC is not backing me up at all. She has made the squadron look good, and having a young, shining example of cadethood as her daughter will be a good thing. She sails through the program, 100% on everything. EVERYTHING. And her attitude was regressing as fast as she was progressing.

I ended up quitting as DCC over this. Not getting backup, having everything I tried to do overruled "for the good of the outfit". She ended up taking over, and daughter became not only the first Spaatz cadet in the unit, but the youngest in Wing history.

ES was being shoved in a closet because every weekend she had something AE related going on, and "she didn't want to burn out the cadets." My aunt fanny.

Ends up, lots of bad things happen, daughter's attitude towards everything culminated in a chewing out by me, and me getting chewed out by the CC, over a flagrant safety violation (she decided to close the hangar door because the sun was in her eyes, and didn't follow any of the posted safety protocol, jeopardizing several cadets' lives). Mom was angry that I yelled at her little angel. So I left for 6 years.

I got my revenge. Her younger daughter eventually ended up a pot head, and the nightmare one became a lesbian, last I heard, way against the parents' religious sensibilities.

This is the first time something I've posted has escalated into a talk about homosexuality and religion.

[SarDragon]

Isn't it more fun than that other topic that most threads seem to drift to? 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Which one other topic? Uniforms? Uniforms??? There, I have changed it now!!!

[jeders]

Which one other topic? Uniforms? Uniforms??? There, I have changed it now!!!

No, all you've done is connect the topics. This is how you change it:

I believe that whenever a parent in CAP has a child in CAP, the cadet should get an extra ribbon showing just how special they are.

[Garibaldi]

Which one other topic? Uniforms? Uniforms??? There, I have changed it now!!!

No, all you've done is connect the topics. This is how you change it:

I believe that whenever a parent in CAP has a child in CAP, the cadet should get an extra ribbon showing just how special they are.

Can they put the ribbon on their ABUs when we get them? If they get a lot of "feel good" and "showing up" ribbons they can wear a bright blue sash with the ribbons and medals on them, right?

[jeders]

Which one other topic? Uniforms? Uniforms??? There, I have changed it now!!!

No, all you've done is connect the topics. This is how you change it:

I believe that whenever a parent in CAP has a child in CAP, the cadet should get an extra ribbon showing just how special they are.

Can they put the ribbon on their ABUs when we get them? If they get a lot of "feel good" and "showing up" ribbons they can wear a bright blue sash with the ribbons and medals on them, right?

Absolutely.

[MSG Mac]

Which one other topic? Uniforms? Uniforms??? There, I have changed it now!!!

No, all you've done is connect the topics. This is how you change it:

I believe that whenever a parent in CAP has a child in CAP, the cadet should get an extra ribbon showing just how special they are.

Can they put the ribbon on their ABUs when we get them? If they get a lot of "feel good" and "showing up" ribbons they can wear a bright blue sash with the ribbons and medals on them, right?

Absolutely.

You should be ashamed

[Luis R. Ramos]

Am I    ?

Not!    

How about you, Garibaldi or Jeders?

Are you    or  ?

[Garibaldi]

Am I    ?

Not!    

How about you, Garibaldi or Jeders?

Are you    or  ?

You know me better than that!

[lordmonar]

Bahh!  A ribbon!  They should get a black shoulder cord!

[Luis R. Ramos]

With the BDUs!