Cadets in Assistant Duty Assignments

[Extremepredjudice]

You've indicated here that you are a cadet too young to go senior, so regardless of "what you do all day", it's not going to be very relevant in
terms of experience. 

uh-huh. Sir, I manage 20-200 people. I have done so for 4 years. For a total of over 7000 hours. If you think that gives weight let me know. That is just one thing I do all day.

you've been managing 20-400 people since you were 13 (at the oldest)...

20-200, yes. It is a position in juvenile justice.

[Eclipse]

?

[NCRblues]

I'm going to go ahead and throw the BS flag on this one.

A 13 year old is not going to be supervising 20-200 people. Nope....


and if so, please give me the number of the "justice" system you work for. I will have some strong words for those officials that would even think to allow that to happen.

[tsrup]

You've indicated here that you are a cadet too young to go senior, so regardless of "what you do all day", it's not going to be very relevant in
terms of experience. 

uh-huh. Sir, I manage 20-200 people. I have done so for 4 years. For a total of over 7000 hours. If you think that gives weight let me know. That is just one thing I do all day.

you've been managing 20-400 people since you were 13 (at the oldest)...

20-200, yes. It is a position in juvenile justice.

and this is a paid position?  And of which you were held personally liable and accountable for all 20-400 people?

[Extremepredjudice]

You've indicated here that you are a cadet too young to go senior, so regardless of "what you do all day", it's not going to be very relevant in
terms of experience. 

uh-huh. Sir, I manage 20-200 people. I have done so for 4 years. For a total of over 7000 hours. If you think that gives weight let me know. That is just one thing I do all day.

you've been managing 20-400 people since you were 13 (at the oldest)...

20-200, yes. It is a position in juvenile justice.

and this is a paid position?  And of which you were held personally liable and accountable for all 20-400 people?

No it isn't paid. Yes I am accountable.

The point of the program is for juveniles to be sentenced by their peers. It is extremely successful, and has now become an international program, with programs in the UK and france.

[NCRblues]

No, your not accountable.

From the National center of state courts.

"Teen courts are staffed by youth volunteers who serve in various capacities within the program, trained and acting in the roles of jurors, lawyers, bailiffs, clerks and judges. Teen courts usually function in cooperation with local juvenile courts and youth detention centers, middle and high schools, and/or community organizations such as the YMCA. Most teen courts are sentencing courts in which the offender has already admitted guilt or pled no contest."

From the National association of youth courts

"The average amount of training that most youth court volunteers receive is 10 hours."

From Missouri case law books

"These programs are administered
directly by juvenile courts or juvenile probation departments."

[Extremepredjudice]

No, your not accountable.

From the National center of state courts.

"Teen courts are staffed by youth volunteers who serve in various capacities within the program, trained and acting in the roles of jurors, lawyers, bailiffs, clerks and judges. Teen courts usually function in cooperation with local juvenile courts and youth detention centers, middle and high schools, and/or community organizations such as the YMCA. Most teen courts are sentencing courts in which the offender has already admitted guilt or pled no contest."

From the National association of youth courts

"The average amount of training that most youth court volunteers receive is 10 hours."

From Missouri case law books

"These programs are administered
directly by juvenile courts or juvenile probation departments."

I've recieved more than 10 hours of training.

I'd disagree on the accountable part, (personal experience dictates otherwise.) but hey, now you can't call my B.S.  :angel:

I still have a managerial position there. By the by, what you quoted is missing a lot of positions...

[lordmonar]

While I am sure that you are learning a lot with the youth court....and CAP.  You still have to learn that there is still a lot to learn.

You are setting yourself up for failure.

Don't be come the big frog in the little pond.

[tsrup]

Extreme,

From what you've described, you're a volunteer program that provides you with an opportunity to lead or manage a multitude of similarly aged and motivated individuals (which is in and of itself commendable)

Which can be said about any CAP cadet.

Or any CAP Senior Member, many of whom have been doing this for a lot longer than 4 years.


This isn't a debate on agesim, it is a debate on experience.  Generally when those who have had 20 years of experience tell you something isn't so, they very well could be right.  But when others agree, and you find your viewpoint in the minority, it's time to call it a day.  And right now you have easily over 60+ years of leadership experience in various facets of professional and volunteer organizations telling you that what you think is correct, isn't.


Unfortunately this is one of those cases where we hate to say it, but it is true:  You'll understand when you're older.  Not because you will physically be older, but because you will have gained an even larger and diverse experience.  Which I'm sure you will if you continue to stay as motivated as you are now.

Stick it out, and just chalk this up as another lessoned learned.  Even if you don't agree with it right away.

[JeffDG]

And another point you tend to learn from management in the real world is resource management.

Yep, we could spend a bunch of time on cool websites.  But the purpose of the website is simply to disseminate information.  The cool, fancy features tend to detract from it.

And the time spent on making the custom website, over the simple template website, is time that could have been spent furthering one of our actual missions.  Time is the most valuable commodity in existence, because everyone has a finite, unknown, quantity of it.  Website design is not a mission.  AE, CP and ES are.

[Extremepredjudice]

I'll say this again: I don't believe ITO is sooo important. I am merely using it as an example to support my thesis.
My thesis is, again: Cadets can run some SM positions without a SM mentor.

While I am sure that you are learning a lot with the youth court....and CAP.  You still have to learn that there is still a lot to learn.

You are setting yourself up for failure.

Don't be come the big frog in the little pond.

I assume you are saying I have a big ego. I was merely disproving Eclipse's claim that I had little or no experience with management. I gave you guys one of my experiences. Since I have a big ego, should I list them all? Maybe I should list more of my experiences with IT? I merely did what I thought was satisfactory to disprove what you guys are saying. That said, I know I need to watch and make sure I don't have an ego. The only thing I have an ego about is pool.

This isn't a debate on agesim, it is a debate on experience.  Generally when those who have had 20 years of experience tell you something isn't so, they very well could be right.  But when others agree, and you find your viewpoint in the minority, it's time to call it a day.  And right now you have easily over 60+ years of leadership experience in various facets of professional and volunteer organizations telling you that what you think is correct, isn't.

Isn't it possible, one, just ONE person, not me, just someone could do it? In the 26618 (as of 30 Nov 2011) cadets in CAP, I think one could handle it.

Besides, while you guys have a lot of experience with CAP and management, haven't you ever been wrong? Just once?

Unfortunately this is one of those cases where we hate to say it, but it is true:  You'll understand when you're older.  Not because you will physically be older, but because you will have gained an even larger and diverse experience.  Which I'm sure you will if you continue to stay as motivated as you are now.

Stick it out, and just chalk this up as another lessoned learned.  Even if you don't agree with it right away.

I'll understand that a cadet can't run a SM position when I am older. Say that aloud, it sounds absurd.

And another point you tend to learn from management in the real world is resource management.

Yep, we could spend a bunch of time on cool websites.  But the purpose of the website is simply to disseminate information.  The cool, fancy features tend to detract from it.

And the time spent on making the custom website, over the simple template website, is time that could have been spent furthering one of our actual missions.  Time is the most valuable commodity in existence, because everyone has a finite, unknown, quantity of it.  Website design is not a mission.  AE, CP and ES are.

As I said before:

I think you think I am some teenager that cares more about "cool factor" than functionality. I am the total opposite. Functionality is my main goal. It is my first thought when I sit down with customers. Coolness only affects my work when I am coding against friends.

I can put a site up in about 45 minutes. I will then update it, in about 4 hours. Than I may tweak it, depending on individual needs.
So call it 5 hours for a site. Not bad? If I want to test it (extensively, I test it as I go along), add another 30 minutes.

[lordmonar]

I'll say this again: I don't believe ITO is sooo important. I am merely using it as an example to support my thesis.
My thesis is, again: Cadets can run some SM positions without a SM mentor.

No they can't.  A cadet must always have supervision and the whole function of the cadet program is to provide cadets mentoring.

Are individual cadets capabile of doing and SM's job with out supervision or mentoring?  Sure.....but the point is not if they are capable....but what is allowed.

End of story.

Everything else that follows is just a reattack on this basic theme.  It does not matter how mature you are, what certs you have, what sort of work experince you have, how much managment experince you have or even how old you are......if you are cadet.....then you are a cadet.  That means you must have SM supervisions and by being a member of the cadet corps you will be getting menotring from a SM.

[Extremepredjudice]

I'll say this again: I don't believe ITO is sooo important. I am merely using it as an example to support my thesis.
My thesis is, again: Cadets can run some SM positions without a SM mentor.

No they can't.  A cadet must always have supervision and the whole function of the cadet program is to provide cadets mentoring.

Are individual cadets capabile of doing and SM's job with out supervision or mentoring?  Sure.....but the point is not if they are capable....but what is allowed.

End of story.

Everything else that follows is just a reattack on this basic theme.  It does not matter how mature you are, what certs you have, what sort of work experince you have, how much managment experince you have or even how old you are......if you are cadet.....then you are a cadet.  That means you must have SM supervisions and by being a member of the cadet corps you will be getting menotring from a SM.

Sir, we established supervision and mentoring are two different things. Never did I say they could do it without supervision.

So in a squadron with only a few SM, a capable cadet couldn't, under any circumstance, run a SM position? I bet you my whole salary with CAP that there is at least 1 cadet out there doing this, and doing a kick-ass job.

[tsrup]

I'll say this again: I don't believe ITO is sooo important. I am merely using it as an example to support my thesis.
My thesis is, again: Cadets can run some SM positions without a SM mentor.

No they can't.  A cadet must always have supervision and the whole function of the cadet program is to provide cadets mentoring.

Are individual cadets capabile of doing and SM's job with out supervision or mentoring?  Sure.....but the point is not if they are capable....but what is allowed.

End of story.

Everything else that follows is just a reattack on this basic theme.  It does not matter how mature you are, what certs you have, what sort of work experince you have, how much managment experince you have or even how old you are......if you are cadet.....then you are a cadet.  That means you must have SM supervisions and by being a member of the cadet corps you will be getting menotring from a SM.

Sir, we established supervision and mentoring are two different things. Never did I say they could do it without supervision.

So in a squadron with only a few SM, a capable cadet couldn't, under any circumstance, run a SM position? I bet you my whole salary with CAP that there is at least 1 cadet out there doing this, and doing a kick-ass job.

And fortunately regulations aren't written with the minority in mind.

As for said squadron, I don't know of one that exists, but I do know that if a wing was conducting it's operations in accordance with regulation, it is something that would go notices during the SUI and would be corrected.

[arajca]

So in a squadron with only a few SM, a capable cadet couldn't, under any circumstance, run a SM position? I bet you my whole salary with CAP that there is at least 1 cadet out there doing this, and doing a kick-ass job.

The issue is not one of capability. No one here is saying cadets cannot be capable of serving in a SM duty position. The issue whether or not it is allowed.

Cadets may not serve in any of the senior member staff positions listed in CAPR 20-1, Organization of Civil Air Patrol, but may serve as assistants to those officers.

This is the part YOU fail to understand, despite several senior members pointing it out to you.

[Extremepredjudice]

Well there is a contradiction then.

You guys have mentioned cadet safety, comms, IT, ES officers. So which is it? 

Also, the IT pamphlet mentions C/ITO not assistant, but full ITO. None of the others have mention.

So first you guys are contradicting yourselves, then the regs, forms, pamphlets are. 

[Spaceman3750]

Well there is a contradiction then.

You guys have mentioned cadet safety, comms, IT, ES officers. So which is it? 

Also, the IT pamphlet mentions C/ITO not assistant, but full ITO. None of the others have mention.

So first you guys are contradicting yourselves, then the regs, forms, pamphlets are. 

C/Anything is not a senior member staff position as listed in 20-1. It is a cadet position, not a SM position.

[lordmonar]

I'll say this again: I don't believe ITO is sooo important. I am merely using it as an example to support my thesis.
My thesis is, again: Cadets can run some SM positions without a SM mentor.

No they can't.  A cadet must always have supervision and the whole function of the cadet program is to provide cadets mentoring.

Are individual cadets capabile of doing and SM's job with out supervision or mentoring?  Sure.....but the point is not if they are capable....but what is allowed.

End of story.

Everything else that follows is just a reattack on this basic theme.  It does not matter how mature you are, what certs you have, what sort of work experince you have, how much managment experince you have or even how old you are......if you are cadet.....then you are a cadet.  That means you must have SM supervisions and by being a member of the cadet corps you will be getting menotring from a SM.

Sir, we established supervision and mentoring are two different things. Never did I say they could do it without supervision.

So in a squadron with only a few SM, a capable cadet couldn't, under any circumstance, run a SM position? I bet you my whole salary with CAP that there is at least 1 cadet out there doing this, and doing a kick-ass job.

Then I will bet you much more substantial salary that there is atleast one squadron commander out there who does not know how to do his job.

Like I said...it is not about capability.....but what is allowed by regulations and the aims of the cadet program.

[lordmonar]

Well there is a contradiction then.

You guys have mentioned cadet safety, comms, IT, ES officers. So which is it? 

Also, the IT pamphlet mentions C/ITO not assistant, but full ITO. None of the others have mention.

So first you guys are contradicting yourselves, then the regs, forms, pamphlets are. 

No....within the structure of the CADET organisation.....under the CADET commander he may have a CADET ES officer, a CADET Comm, A CADET IT guy.  They are only responsible for those parts of the overall program areas that falls within the CADET program.

The CADET Comms guy should not also be the Squadron Comms guys....he can be the Assitant Comms guy.....but that is all.

Like I said many posts ago.....any cadet can be tasked with specific tasks and/or be assigned as the Assitant to a SM officer....but he cannot.....cannot.....cannot be the primary staff officer.

END OF STORY....no contradiction, no violation of the regulations.

[SAR Officer]

My thought on this thread was to be a simple matter....I see there is lots of items being discussed from my thread.....
My question pertained to MENTORING as a assistant to the Senior counterparts.....I looked at 20-1 and had discussions with my staff on this MENTORING program for those Cadets that were interested in Senior positions working as Cadet assistants as Safety, Aerospace, Operations and ect. My function was to mentor the Cadets in learning Leadership and the roles of Senior staff....I actually encourage the Cadets to take interest in these positions - I am not asking them to do the Senior positions (Only Assist and Learn)....I limit the mentoring with staff positions so not to interfere with the Cadet programs side....My Senior officer are responsible for their assigned positions and understand that the Cadets will never be more than assistants for learning purposes until they become Seniors themselves....