History of The CAP Distinctive Grey/White Uniform -- Better Options?

Started by RADIOMAN015, June 26, 2010, 09:29:55 PM

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RADIOMAN015

Being relatively new to CAP, and trying to get an understanding about how we ended up with a white aviator shirt & grey pants, grey epaulets combination perhaps someone "in the know" could explain this a bit better, as to how this color combination evolved.

Personally, I would have thought that CAP would have stayed with it's colors as was in the original CAP logo (red, white, & blue),
(Interestingly the AF also actually provides the proper color codes for our logos at:  http://www.af.mil/art/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=5187)     

So perhaps we could have gone with blue pants, keep the white shirt, but have bright red epaulets (that match CAP's original logo red paint) as well as a bright red name tag with white lettering.

Maybe the Blue pants color as displayed in the logos would be difficult to get commercially.   Perhaps the current AF uniform pants sold in the BX would work best. 

Perhaps add a hat requirement, likely a flight CAP that would be like the new CAP red propeller lapel pin on the vanguard website.

Coat wise it could be the Blue flight jacket or any other blue style to include military jacket.  Anything military type coat/overcoat would have to have the red CAP epaulets.

I guess from my point, we need more bright color in our uniforms, and perhaps this greater distinctiveness would allow transition into a completely supplied BX uniform in the distant future.

RM

DakRadz

Upon reading this post, I thought this was a drive-by by a troll.

Then I saw it was Radioman. Really? Trying to start an argument? That's obvious, given you propose to add the Triangle Thingy to SM uniforms.

You say you're new to CAP. Hmm. In that case, I'll let the SM on CAPTalk argue with you on one condition- if you're new to CAP (and you retired from the RM, I believe I saw on another post) then leave cadet uniforms alone. You've proposed changes to them elsewhere. Yet you don't seem to have been a cadet. So leave our unis alone- we like them!

FW

The "whites and greys" were developed as an offshoot of the IACE blazer uniform.  This uniform goes back to the late 60's at least.  I don't remember when it became a "CAP distinctive " uniform. 

Our CAP Historian, btw, would love us to go back to red epaulets..... ahh, tradition :D

Persona non grata

What you propose would be stupid . Reading youur post ,I wonder why you are in CAP. Why dont you just get out all together and stop putting CAP down                                                                                                                                                 
Rock, Flag & Eagle.........

MSgt Van

Quote from: eaker.cadet on June 26, 2010, 10:45:12 PM
What you propose would be stupid .... Why dont you just get out all together and stop putting CAP down                                                                                                                                                 
Hey now, you kids play nice.  >:(

RVT

Quote from: FW on June 26, 2010, 10:36:15 PM
The "whites and greys" were developed as an offshoot of the IACE blazer uniform.  This uniform goes back to the late 60's at least.  I don't remember when it became a "CAP distinctive " uniform.

Makes sense - considering a previous version of the grey & white was the white shirt with the blazer nameplate.  Probably started with a hot weather version of the blazer uniform and evolved from that to what we have now.

On a similar idea - I'm guessing the Polo/golf shirt replaced the Guyaberra shirt.  I still have mine but I don't remember what pants were worn with it.  Probably grey....

ol'fido

If we did the blue pants, white shirt, and red epaulette slides would the Salvation Army object? ::) ::)
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

The CyBorg is destroyed

First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE no red epaulets, not unless we readopt pinks and greens!  That would be as bad as berry boards were! It looked OK with pinks and greens, but to imagine it with white, blue, or grey...

When I joined CAP in 1993, it was soon after the Air Force took our blue shoulder boards and metal rank away, something that I personally believe damaged CAP identity-wise, and we have never recovered from it (witness the often-acrimonious uniform debates of the past 20 years).

My first squadron, which I was a member of for six years, only wore AF type uniforms and wore them correctly, thanks to a sizeable percentage of prior-service commanders.  I never saw a white shirt, guyabera, polo shirt, etc., until I started attending Wing activities.  I only saw them in the CAP Bookstore catalogue.

G/W became a "CAP-distinctive" uniform somewhere around the mid-90s, when we got the grey shoulder boards (better than the bloody awful "berry boards," if not as good as blue) and the "U.S." cutouts (inexplicable to me that we can have those, but can't have blue epaulettes).  I think it was an attempt at compromise for those who can't/won't wear AF-style to have something to wear their CAP ribbons on, because they couldn't on prior non-AF unis.

The grey/white scheme completely baffles me.  It does not bring "aviation" to mind (civilian or military) and the only connection it has to CAP history is the aforementioned IACE setup.  Yet there are those who are very zealous for it and want CAP to ditch anything blue in favour of it...I don't get it...
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

spacecommand

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the orkin man yet!  ;)

JC004

Quote from: DakRadz on June 26, 2010, 09:49:06 PM
...
Then I saw it was Radioman. Really? Trying to start an argument? That's obvious, given you propose to add the Triangle Thingy to SM uniforms.
...

I can't believe anyone would propose adding the Triangle Thingy to the uniform considering how the members clearly feel about said Triangle Thingy.

There has been much discussion of the Triangle Thingy here and it became a topic offline among many after it disappeared from the magazine cover.  People were wondering (and hoping, apparently) that the disappearance signaled its demise, but my theory is that either they just continue the usual inconsistency that has gone on for years now or someone discovered there is no "A" in "volunteer."  Members here mentioned that as soon as it replaced the seal on the magazine cover but it generally takes some time for National to respond to things.

JohnKachenmeister

Radioman's dream uniform sounds like the costumes worn by the "Liberty Belles," the acapella singing trio that travels with USO tours to entertain troops.

That uniform looks way better on them than it would on me.
Another former CAP officer

HGjunkie

Quote from: DakRadz on June 26, 2010, 09:49:06 PM
Upon reading this post, I thought this was a drive-by by a troll.
It's possible considering he hasn't reposted.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RADIOMAN015

Regarding the arguements against making the various AF logistically supported Blue dress uniforms more distinctive.   My only effort in this debate/discussion is so that everyone in the organization can wear the same "blue" uniform.  That also includes utility uniforms being blue (unfortunately, BDU's & ABU's/ABD's (whatever) are not the way to go for a non combat organization specifically limited by AF Regulation). 

Those of you that bring up the federal law on uniform wear, need to remember that IF you are wearing everything like the military than that does come under a potential violation of the law.  HOWEVER, if you are wearing a "distinctive" blue type uniform, that leaves no question in anyones mind that you are NOT a military member than much of the regulation (e.g. weight, hair length, beards (neatly trimmed),  might be successfully argued as mute.    The grey in my opinion is not differentiating enough from a distance and even in close proximity.  Red is a better offset/distinctive color.  We already use this with cadet rank, so the transition to red background name tags (for all) & red rank epauletts for senior members would be consistent with our cadet uniform "uniqueness" and offer uniformity of appearance.

So If I own a appliance repair business and decided I'd like to wear the AF blue shirt & pants as my uniform.  IF I put a logo patch on it that's says "Mike's Applicance Repair" than it isn't a military uniform any more, it is just logistically something I've bought that I like.  Surely the Hock Shop can buy these goods for resale so there is a source other in AFFES/BX, even if CAP decided to go "rogue" from the AF with a "more distinctive" blue type uniform.

I really think the reason this is a "hot button" topic for many is that too many people in CAP focus on wearing a very close to "military"  uniform and just have a difficult time understanding their actual place.  The AF Regulations are very specific about Civil Air Patrol membership and what we are and are not.   Clearly CAP members are not in the military when performing CAP duties.    We can focus on all our missions in whatever "distinctive" uniforms can pass the muster with the USAF. However, again if the blue uniforms become much more distinctive as a Civil Air Patrol uniform (again not a military uniform, but logistically supported via AF channels),  perhaps the entire membership can wear it.  The USCG Aux seems to allow beards & heaviness; (this doesn't seem to get in the way with them directly supporting the USCG in many missions) why is there such inconsistency with auxiliaries?

Is the entire blue uniform wear issue a problem with the Air Force or is it a problem with Civil Air Patrol not presenting more significant uniqueness for blue uniform wear?

RM
       

RiverAux

QuoteThose of you that bring up the federal law on uniform wear, need to remember that IF you are wearing everything like the military than that does come under a potential violation of the law.
Keep in mind that the military can authorize people to wear just about anything and also that military auxiliary uniforms are protected with the exact same federal law as the "real military" uniforms are. 

BillB

Red for cadet rank?   Cite please.  There is no place in 39-1 where that is authorized. Under the old 52-16, cadets on staff at encampment could wear a background color cloth under the encampment rank insignia which was a temporary grade. But that policy was dropped when cadets could no longer have temporary grade, and must wear earned grade insignia.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

JoeTomasone

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
(Blah blah blah) ...would be consistent with our cadet uniform "uniqueness" and offer uniformity of appearance.
   

Ok, I finally call troll here, and leave the thread with one comment:

Since it's USAF that requires the distinctiveness, why can't you just let them decide what they consider distinct enough?

Now, back under your bridge.

Good boy.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
The grey in my opinion is not differentiating enough from a distance and even in close proximity.  Red is a better offset/distinctive color.  We already use this with cadet rank, so the transition to red background name tags (for all) & red rank epauletts for senior members would be consistent with our cadet uniform "uniqueness" and offer uniformity of appearance.

First off, cadets look more like the AF than SM's do.  Their collar stripes are AF with the shield superimposed on them, and they still have blue shoulder boards for officers.  In 17 years in CAP I have not seen red as a significant colour in cadet uniforms, other than on the hard shoulder boards for cadet officers...and that's just a thin stripe.

I don't understand what your fixation with red is.

Quite frankly, the whole "distinctiveness" thing is a red herring as far as I'm concerned, and there are Australia-size holes in AFI 10-2701.

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

"Confusion" can be many things to many people.  As I've said before, a big share of the blame, if any is given, should go to the Air Force for not making their membership familiar with what CAP is.  One two-hour session in BMT, with a PowerPoint, taught by a CAP member would go a long way toward that and would be a lot better than yet another two hours spent doing dorm maintenance.  Trainees learn about the ANG and AFRES.  There is absolutely no reason they should not learn about their Auxiliary.

That "distance/low-light" thing is a cop-out as far as I'm concerned.  If some E-1 who hasn't cleaned his/her glasses that day encounters a CAP officer and don't know who s/he is, it's up to the E-1 to take two minutes and ASK the CAP member rather than go whine to their first shirt that "someone's wearing our uniform and playing officer."

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
...even if CAP decided to go "rogue" from the AF with a "more distinctive" blue type uniform...

Good luck on getting that bird to fly with NHQ.

We had a perfectly fine, distinctive blue uniform with the CSU that could more easily be mistaken for a Soviet Air Force dress blue uniform or TSA uniform than anything the AF wears, especially with the modifications General Courter directed, and STILL they're deep-sixing it.  I think NHQ is allergic to anything blue that isn't the AF-type uniform, because they're so afraid that we're going to tick the AF off with anything blue and/or the fact that the CSU was a product of the previous Generalissimo.

Doing away with the modified CSU makes absolutely no sense.

I also don't buy the "it looks too much like the Army's blue uniform" argument.  If you can't differentiate the CSU from this (http://www.army.mil/asu/changes.html) you need your eyes checked, better education or just pay better attention.

NOAA and USPHS are not military (they are uniformed services, but not Armed Forces) and they wear uniforms nearly identical to the Navy.

http://www.noaacorps.noaa.gov/PersonnelPages/noaacorpsdirbailey.html
http://www.optoblog.com/2008/02/10/usphs-changes-uniform-rules/

I see those uniformed officers and I think "Navy" a lot more than most who see us think "Air Force."

For that matter, the NSCC looks a lot more like the Navy than we do the AF and I don't know of any hair-splitting among them about "distinctiveness."

http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/trifold-faq-officer-low.pdf

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
We can focus on all our missions in whatever "distinctive" uniforms can pass the muster with the USAF.

Agreed - to a point.  The point of disagreement is there are some in the USAF who still remember the fiascoes of the late '80s and don't want us looking anything like them and who frankly could care less about us.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
The USCG Aux seems to allow beards & heaviness; (this doesn't seem to get in the way with them directly supporting the USCG in many missions) why is there such inconsistency with auxiliaries?

Different service, different rules.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 27, 2010, 03:40:17 PM
Is the entire blue uniform wear issue a problem with the Air Force or is it a problem with Civil Air Patrol not presenting more significant uniqueness for blue uniform wear?

Ignorance on the AF's part and National being scared of anything blue.

Exiled from GLR-MI-011

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 27, 2010, 04:33:23 PM
Since it's USAF that requires the distinctiveness, why can't you just let them decide what they consider distinct enough?

Good luck on that one.

Outside of CAP-USAF and the relatively few AF personnel who have dealt directly with us, most of them don't even know who we are.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

AlphaSigOU

My beef with the corporate gray-and-whites:

No uniformity with the shirt and trouser specification. Don't just specify 'aviator' or 'medium gray'; specify a specific brand to be worn for the shirt (Van Heusen Aviator (available through Vanguard) or Pilot House Relaxed Oxford (my preference)) and a uniform color shade and style for the trousers or skirt (plain front heather gray with no cuffs, for example). I've seen so many variations of shirts and trousers that uniformity in the grays goes out the window.

The one attempt at wearing a blue corporate service uniform got eighty-sixed because of internal CAP politics. The Air Force didn't mind the uniform after some changes were made. It's going to be a sad day when that uniform sunsets - I may wind up making it into a banana republic dictator Halloween costume.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

arajca

I wouldn't specify a particular brand/model, except as an example. As with the trousers, specific features:
White shirt, functional epaulets, non-pleated pointed pockets with pointed full flaps, and full placket (the part where the button holes are).
That spec opens up where you get them from - I can't wear the Van Husen shirts because I have a large neck (19.5) and I need a tall shirt. Van Husen doesn't make them in that size.