History of The CAP Distinctive Grey/White Uniform -- Better Options?

[BGNightfall]

Actually, I can't see much of a downside to an airline-style coat for CAP.  The ones I have seen tend to be fairly conservative in cut and present a professional appearance without looking too "military".  Do I necessarily advocate altering our rank presentation to fit with the sleeve rings?  No.  There seems to be a great deal of backlash on these forums against that. 

An airline-style coat would likely be more middle of the road, especially if you go with the "ribbons on/ribbons off" styles that used to be in use on the aviator greys.  It would certainly be in keeping with our identity as an aviation organization.

[dmac]

I don't mind the uniforms at all.  The problem I have, is with what they are called. 

The word corporate --to describe these uniforms-- is (at best) dopey... And at worst idiotic.   

"Distinctive" is more appropriate, and is the term that should be used.     

This is just like the problem where Air Force uniforms are designated by CAP as Air Force Style uniforms.  Well sorry National; no such animal.  They are not (I say again not) Air Force Style uniforms. 

An Air Force Style uniform is the little green flightsuit-looking costume kids wear on Halloween.  Or the little blue service dress jackets on the stuffed teddy bears they sell at the BX.   

Then you obviously have never read AFI 10-2701. They use the term "Air Force Style uniform".

1.3. Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer
upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,
reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not
apply to CAP members.


1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air
Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific
missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn
by CAP members.



You may not like the term, but National is correct in using the term "Air Force Style".

Darrell R. McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
Vice Commander, NEWG

[TeamBronx]

Almost anything would be good as long as its not the blazer we already have. The blazer to me is a casual jacket and just doesn't look aviation like and certainly isnt military. On top of that cadets hate to see senior members in it.

I like the blazer combination.  It is flexible:  can be worn normally or with a bowtie for that semi-formal occasion.  Even the Grey/White combination needs to look neat and presentable in public.  I think it's easier to pull this off with the blazer combination than with the grey/whites.  If I had to represent CAP and meet with some outside people, I feel that the blazer would give a more dignified impression than the grey/whites.

The blazer combination is a cheaper uniform to purchase than most of those off-the-shelf fire department type uniforms referenced above.  If Vanguard became involved (in order to ensure standardization) the price would be even higher.

I think that cadets would like to see an overweight senior officer wearing the blazer uniform rather than the overweight senior trying to wear the air force style uniform or a disheveled grey/white uniform.  Even the Grey/White combination is difficult to keep neat with a belly roll.  I say this as a currently overweight member who sees my potbelly destroy the originally neat appearance of the grey/white uniform after a few hour's work.  I wear shirt stays to avoid this but I doubt that many seniors will routinely do this

[Eclipse]

A disheveled, ill-fitting, off-the-rack blazer looks no better than any other uniform, and for ceremonial occasions the blazer makes the members wearing it "different" from everyone else.

The secret to the belly roll is getting pants that fit, no matter that uniform you are wearing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The blazer combination is a cheaper uniform to purchase than most of those off-the-shelf fire department type uniforms referenced above.  If Vanguard became involved (in order to ensure standardization) the price would be even higher.

Sir, your opinion is noted and appreciated.  I'm sure you (or I) are not the first to grouse about the cost of uniforms in the C(ome) A(nd) P(ay).

However, I, and many others, believe that the blazer jacket to have nothing to do with our "branding," if you like, as an aviation orientated organisation, and it shows nothing of our Air Force tradition.

Plus, many who cannot wear the AF combination (full disclosure: I can and do, though I'm wearing the CSU until the very last second) want something formal that looks "military," on which they can wear the awards they've earned.  We had it with the CSU, and that got shot down.

I think the ideas being offered up are trying to standardise on something that builds on the grey-white, yet goes along with National's dictum of tiptoeing around anything that is too "Air Force-like."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Actually, I can't see much of a downside to an airline-style coat for CAP.  The ones I have seen tend to be fairly conservative in cut and present a professional appearance without looking too "military".  Do I necessarily advocate altering our rank presentation to fit with the sleeve rings?  No.  There seems to be a great deal of backlash on these forums against that. 

An airline-style coat would likely be more middle of the road, especially if you go with the "ribbons on/ribbons off" styles that used to be in use on the aviator greys.  It would certainly be in keeping with our identity as an aviation organization.

My only problem with an airline uniform is that very few of them have epaulettes.  I'm not in favour of the rings round the cuff either.

[Hawk200]

My only problem with an airline uniform is that very few of them have epaulettes.  I'm not in favour of the rings round the cuff either.

Blazer Nameplate. Put it on the right, ribbons on the left. Wings/badges over ribbons.

Use the above on an airline uniform. Easy. (Probably too easy).

[RVT]

Blazer Nameplate. Put it on the right, ribbons on the left. Wings/badges over ribbons. Use the above on an airline uniform. Easy. (Probably too easy).

Makes sense - but I just went poking around looking at airline pilots uniforms, and they all look similar to the CSU jacket

Why don't we just use the existing CSU coat over the white & grey?

No development cost, no time involved, existing stocks are probably still around in storage somewhere.  Saves a lot of waste, both of uniforms already bought and the unsold stock.  All that would get tossed is a pair of blue rank slides you are about to throw out anyway.

The people who want to keep the coat probably already have it.  Don't need to write new regs - the current configuration with grey rank slides would actually make MORE sense if used this way.

You get a very distinctive uniform that doesn't look like anything else.  The whole issue could be fixed with the stroke of a pen.

And now that I think about it - when the coat ceases to be a uniform item, it becomes a civilian jacket - and under the current regulations you can wear it over the whites & greys anyway  So all they really need to do is let you leave the existing insignia on it.

Seriously?  Nobody thought of this?

[Hawk200]

And now that I think about it - when the coat ceases to be a uniform item, it becomes a civilian jacket - and under the current regulations you can wear it over the whites & greys anyway  So all they really need to do is let you leave the existing insignia on it.

Civilian outergarments don't have insignia. Wearing the CSU coat after the phaseout would simply be wearing a phased out (and no longer authorized) uniform item.

[Eclipse]

And now that I think about it - when the coat ceases to be a uniform item, it becomes a civilian jacket - and under the current regulations you can wear it over the whites & greys anyway  So all they really need to do is let you leave the existing insignia on it.

Civilian outergarments don't have insignia. Wearing the CSU coat after the phaseout would simply be wearing a phased out (and no longer authorized) uniform item.

As long as you change the buttons.

For the record, unlike the blazer, the CSU jacket is not a "civilian garment" - it is a purpose-built uniform item for a specific service.  There is only one source for it - VG.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My only problem with an airline uniform is that very few of them have epaulettes.  I'm not in favour of the rings round the cuff either.

Blazer Nameplate. Put it on the right, ribbons on the left. Wings/badges over ribbons.

Use the above on an airline uniform. Easy. (Probably too easy).

You know, that idea did jump into my head...but I thought, "nah, too easy!"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Makes sense - but I just went poking around looking at airline pilots uniforms, and they all look similar to the CSU jacket

Why don't we just use the existing CSU coat over the white & grey?

It's been thought of and Photoshopped here before by those more creative than I am.

National, for reasons illogical but best known to themselves, are trying to put the CSU in the "it was the most horrible idea since CAP was founded" category.

Vanguard took the CSU coat down long before General Courter's ICL.  Unless you can find one used, you're pretty much SOL.

Not all the airline jackets are double-breasted:

http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/p_jacket.htm

http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/wp_jacket.htm

They also have pullover sweaters that would be good for us, since they are not USAF issue:

http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/flight_jsw.htm#sweaters

I still haven't figured out the issue of a headdress, unless we'd get a bunch of German Bundesluftwaffe ones, take off the German roundel on the front and put the flight cap device on it...

http://schools-wikipedia.org/images/586/58688.jpg.htm

[RVT]

As long as you change the buttons. For the record, unlike the blazer, the CSU jacket is not a "civilian garment" - it is a purpose-built uniform item for a specific service.  There is only one source for it - VG.

Well now the official source for it is probably Ebay.  I don't own any CAP distinctive uniforms and the only one I've ever seen anyone else use is the polo shirt.  I was approaching this from an efficiency point of view.

Just seems odd that the grey & white uniform now has rank, ribbons and badges on it - and the only uniform outergarment authorized for it is a blazer.  When you take your coat off its like Clark Kent turning into superman or something.

[RickFranz]

Blazer Why don't we just use the existing CSU coat over the white & grey?

No development cost, no time involved, existing stocks are probably still around in storage somewhere.  Saves a lot of waste, both of uniforms already bought and the unsold stock.  All that would get tossed is a pair of blue rank slides you are about to throw out anyway.

The people who want to keep the coat probably already have it.  Don't need to write new regs - the current configuration with grey rank slides would actually make MORE sense if used this way.

You get a very distinctive uniform that doesn't look like anything else.  The whole issue could be fixed with the stroke of a pen.

And now that I think about it - when the coat ceases to be a uniform item, it becomes a civilian jacket - and under the current regulations you can wear it over the whites & greys anyway  So all they really need to do is let you leave the existing insignia on it.

Seriously?  Nobody thought of this?

Now if we could just come up with a standard pant to with it.  It should also past the low light test as well...

[Eclipse]

Just seems odd that the grey & white uniform now has rank, ribbons and badges on it - and the only uniform outergarment authorized for it is a blazer.  When you take your coat off its like Clark Kent turning into superman or something.

If its a "blazer night" I don't wear any accouterments on the shirt under neath - not much point.

Though many people wear them as if they were, they are actually not the same uniform variant.

[RVT]

Though many people wear them as if they were, they are actually not the same uniform variant.

The white shirt worn only with the blazer nameplate was - but its gone.

[fyrfitrmedic]

All too true, and for that reason I don't see the confusion between the CSU and the AF uniform, unless one completely ignores such things as cut and insignia and only focusses on the fact that they are both blue.

How anyone could mistake a double-breasted jacket with six bright buttons and a silver braid for a single-breasted jacket with three subdued buttons and a blue braid is beyond me (not to mention the white shirt, different nametags, weird ribbons, and of course the "CAP" all over it).

The CSU looks more Navy than USAF, and probably more Fire department than military.

T minus 10 seconds for someone to be offended that the FIRE DEPARTMENT was MENTIONED...

9...

8...

7...

I resemble that comment - seriously, the TPU *does* look a lot like my fire department class-A uniform.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Hell's teeth, I'd even be good with this (with matching trousers and standard CAP blingage) with the aviator whites, replacing the very non-aviation looking blue blazer.http://www.americanuniform.com/fire_dress.htm

The Blazer uniform dates back to 1957 and fills a very specific purpose.  Even the CGA, with about 1/8 the uniform inventory that we have, has that.  We don't need to change that at all.

What you HAVE found though, is an off the shelf replacement for the CSU with no development time (since the only modification would be to take the badge fob off). and a built in defense for it - its already designated a fire/police uniform.  They can't complain that it looks like USAF.  And when you stick the CAP "bling" on it it won't look like a cop jacket either.

And we would wear that over the existing aviator white & grey - so you even avoid the "bring back / retain the CSU" problem.  And since its a civillain jacket, technically you already CAN wear it over the white& grey - just not put any insignia on it.

I've been off board for a few weeks now (encampment, etc), but I can't resist:    BOOM

You regulars know that I couldn't resist plugging what I and others think woudl be a great SM uniform.

[Lt Oliv]

Hell's teeth, I'd even be good with this (with matching trousers and standard CAP blingage) with the aviator whites, replacing the very non-aviation looking blue blazer.http://www.americanuniform.com/fire_dress.htm

The Blazer uniform dates back to 1957 and fills a very specific purpose.  Even the CGA, with about 1/8 the uniform inventory that we have, has that.  We don't need to change that at all.

What you HAVE found though, is an off the shelf replacement for the CSU with no development time (since the only modification would be to take the badge fob off). and a built in defense for it - its already designated a fire/police uniform.  They can't complain that it looks like USAF.  And when you stick the CAP "bling" on it it won't look like a cop jacket either.

And we would wear that over the existing aviator white & grey - so you even avoid the "bring back / retain the CSU" problem.  And since its a civillain jacket, technically you already CAN wear it over the white& grey - just not put any insignia on it.

I've been off board for a few weeks now (encampment, etc), but I can't resist:    BOOM

You regulars know that I couldn't resist plugging what I and others think woudl be a great SM uniform.

You know, I always hated the idea. But seeing it, it doesn't look too bad.

[HGjunkie]

Hell's teeth, I'd even be good with this (with matching trousers and standard CAP blingage) with the aviator whites, replacing the very non-aviation looking blue blazer.http://www.americanuniform.com/fire_dress.htm

The Blazer uniform dates back to 1957 and fills a very specific purpose.  Even the CGA, with about 1/8 the uniform inventory that we have, has that.  We don't need to change that at all.

What you HAVE found though, is an off the shelf replacement for the CSU with no development time (since the only modification would be to take the badge fob off). and a built in defense for it - its already designated a fire/police uniform.  They can't complain that it looks like USAF.  And when you stick the CAP "bling" on it it won't look like a cop jacket either.

And we would wear that over the existing aviator white & grey - so you even avoid the "bring back / retain the CSU" problem.  And since its a civillain jacket, technically you already CAN wear it over the white& grey - just not put any insignia on it.

I've been off board for a few weeks now (encampment, etc), but I can't resist:    BOOM

You regulars know that I couldn't resist plugging what I and others think woudl be a great SM uniform.

Looks bad without a really dark grey, or even blue pants and cover.