NCO Program update from the field

[Eclipse]

Please step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

[Shuman 14]

Again I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

[SarDragon]

Again I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Are you sure that's the right word?

[Eclipse]

Warrant Officer insignia is still grade, and professional development "grade" is just as irrelevant
and subjective as everything else.

If grade is unimportant to the mission, just making up different grade doesn't solve the problem.

Those in leadership positions don't need grade, either. No one in CAP who is unclear on who is in charge
is going to figure it out based on insignia.  If you need to know, you know, and if you don't know,
you likely don't need to know.

Protip: It's the dude everyone is looking at / asking / blaming, depending on circumstance.

Eliminating grade does, and is the only "solution" to this issue. Which isn't an issue.

[Jester]

Please step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

Yeah as soon as I typed it I realized it was too close to being a solution.

Have fun griping on CAPTalk I guess.

[Eclipse]

Please step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

Yeah as soon as I typed it I realized it was too close to being a solution.

Have fun griping on CAPTalk I guess.

Yeah, except it's not.  First, the idea that the only thing that happens is "griping on CAPTalk"
is either naïve or insulting.  Dealer's choice.

Second, with deference to the above, I've made my stance on what CAP needs to
do loud, clear, and in detail both here and elsewhere in person. CAP, has indicated it
has no interest in those ideas, or basically change at any level.  It wants
station-keepers and doorholders. 

At some point both the wall and the forehead are tired of the conversations.

Third - http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23638.msg423339#msg423339

[JohhnyD]

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

[Eclipse]

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

[JohhnyD]

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

Huh?

[TheSkyHornet]

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

Huh?

Not to speak on his behalf, but I think his point is that grades in CAP indicate nothing to the average member.

You walk into a room as a 1st Lt. In that same room, there are three lieutenant colonels, a major, two captains, six first lieutenants, a second lieutenant, two technical sergeants, and three new seniors without grade. They're wearing a mix of polos with grey slacks, Class B Blues, whites, and one is in some semi-identifiable unauthorized attire. Of those individuals, one captain is a squadron commander, and one first lieutenant is also a squadron commander. One of the lieutenant colonels reports to that same captain back at their home unit, and the rest are a mixture of wing staffers and former squadron commanders still hanging around the local unit headquarters. At that moment, you realize that none of their grades actually indicate anything.

CAP does not run via an "Up or out" philosophy.

[Shuman 14]

Again I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Are you sure that's the right word?

Thank you, I think "prescribed" was the word I was looking for.

[Shuman 14]

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

That's the best answer right there.

[JohhnyD]

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

That's the best answer right there.

Like:
USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

[TheSkyHornet]

There's a measuring tape shortage which will hopefully be restocked now that the Suez Canal is back open. Until then...can we close this thread down already?

[JohhnyD]

There's a measuring tape shortage which will hopefully be restocked now that the Suez Canal is back open. Until then...can we close this thread down already?

In the midst of the standard CAPtalk noise, there really is some good stuff in here.

[CAP9907]

Let's all just stay on-topic and keep the snarkiness out of it and we'll continue for now. Just a general announcement to all.

~9907

[ZigZag911]

Currently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

[JohhnyD]

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

I asked that question to one of the more senior CAP NCOs. His answer, to the best of my recollection, was, "We are working on that. BUT there are those that want to shut down the NCO program and so most of our political capital (he said resources, iirc) is being used to survive."

[Eclipse]

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

The primary role and function of an NCO in the military is to serve as a link or bridge
between the enlisted personnel and the Office Corps, and to serve as motivation and leadership
in training the troops in their charge.

For those just tuning in...

There.

Are.

No.

Enlisted.

Personnel.

In.

CAP.

And.

Never.

Will.

Be.

Until that changes, there is no program nor mission purpose for the NCOs to fulfill,
and any shoed-horned mental gymnastics used to characterize them as "Cadet Specialists"
or "advisors to command" is a retconning of a Goode Idea that wasn't well thought out
before implementation.

A brand new member with zero CAP experience (who happens to be an Army NCO) who can't spell WMIRS is going to advise
CAP leadership on what, exactly?

On how to wear a uniform the organization doesn't allow them to wear?

Drill for adults?

[JohhnyD]

Until that changes, there is no program nor mission purpose for the NCOs to fulfill,

OK, you hang on to that attitude. Ignore the NCO program.

Those of us who have embraced it will reap the rewards.