Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMCurrently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

The original implementation plan signed off on by the AF had that as the ultimate goal.  However, as we've seen in this thread in the feet-dragging and gnashing of teeth and CAP's usual glacial pace to accept or commit to change of any kind has us waaaayyyyyy behind.

I completely support the opening of NCO ranks to non-prior service members.  The vast majority of members do enlisted work.  We need to restrict the officer ranks more than we do. 

You can't expect to be associated with a branch of the military, wear its uniforms, use its symbols and titles and then waive your civilian union card when expected to actually conform to its rank structure. 

Want to be in a youth organization that basically has adults as den mothers or whatever?  Fine, there's a place for that.  CAP ain't it.  Instead of being everything to everybody in order to plead people in the door, we need to embrace what makes us unique. 

CAP embraces the use of military brevity and Air Force terminology in a manner that is distinctly non-reflective of actual military application.

Let's start with our organizational structure:

Our smallest unit, a Flight, is undefined as to what that flight consists of. In most cases, they're either start-up cadet units or "knocked down" squadrons that didn't have the leadership oversight and/or roster size to maintain squadron status.

Squadrons essentially act like Air Force wings or land-based battalions (maybe companies) in their structure. Literally all of the headquarters components and support staffing is entirely housed within the squadron structure with almost no support from higher headquarters to sustain the unit financially, logistically, or in any administrative or service support capacity. Aside from cadet squadrons, other unit types are not defined by a role (e.g., Search & Rescue Squadron, Aerial Reconnaissance Squadron, Communications Squadron, etc.). It's really whatever the squadron feels like doing based on its members' desires and locale's opportunity.

Then, there's the Group level which, in many CAP wings, is often non-functional beyond a layer of oversight. Most groups don't coordinate inter-squadron operations, and that's really, because, as previously stated, the squadrons are self-sustained. Squadron 1 isn't a Communications Squadron who needs to procure uniforms and meals from Squadron 2 while Squadron 3 handles administration and recruit processing.

Then we have CAP Wings which orchestrate some administrative and logistical services for squadrons, but it's really on an infrequent basis. In most cases, it seems that Wings really organize statewide activities, but they don't coordinate multiple squadrons to work together to fulfill mission requirements or tasks; and I think a lot of this has to do with the nature that, once again, squadrons are nearly independent and are not prescribed a specific role.

So while all of this may work for CAP in our organization's own way, we have to make a clear distinction that we are not actually modeled after military units. We share terminology, but not functional definitions nor execution.

So let's look a the member corps:

Cadet Programs is honestly the easiest to follow. It's literally a training cadre and support staff to manage an ROTC-type program. Pretty simple in its structure and intent.

But as someone above pointed out, very actually at that, most of our members do what a military branch would perceive as a typical enlisted role; maybe NCO, maybe junior enlisted. Take vehicle maintenance. Sure, there would be an officer-in-charge over the maintenance program, but most of the logistical requirements would be fulfilled through enlisted staffing. Most of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Before this gets crazy: None of this is intended to jab at any enlisted assignment or "grunt work." It's extremely important to support the greater organization as a whole.

However, in most cases, ANY member (other than a cadet) can not only perform the task, but he held as ultimately responsible for that functional area beneath the command level. Nothing restricts the role of Director of Cadet Programs for a wing to the requirement to be a CAP officer. Nothing restricts your squadron's Safety Officer or Logistics Officer from being an NCO. A Flight Officer, Staff Sergeant, or Second Lieutenant can all perform those functions.

But then we separate them into different professional development tracks and we start discussing, "Well, NCOs should have an NCO course, and officers should have an officer course." Wait a second...it's the same function. Why separate what/how they learn? In CAP, how is the Safety Officer being a Master Sergeant any different than the Safety Officer being a Captain? There is zero difference there.

So is the problem that we don't have a structure that really supports differentiating these roles? Is the problem that we don't have the resourcing to differentiate these roles? Or is the problem that most CAP officers couldn't even tell you the difference between the military application of an officer and NCO?

Or......is there event a problem at all?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMOr......is there event a problem at all?

<<*shack*>>

The reality is that, like many CAP situations, the insignia was approved before the plan was.

Quote from: Jester on March 31, 2021, 01:21:55 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMCurrently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

The original implementation plan signed off on by the AF had that as the ultimate goal.  However, as we've seen in this thread in the feet-dragging and gnashing of teeth and CAP's usual glacial pace to accept or commit to change of any kind has us waaaayyyyyy behind.

I completely support the opening of NCO ranks to non-prior service members.  The vast majority of members do enlisted work.  We need to restrict the officer ranks more than we do. 

You can't expect to be associated with a branch of the military, wear its uniforms, use its symbols and titles and then waive your civilian union card when expected to actually conform to its rank structure. 

Want to be in a youth organization that basically has adults as den mothers or whatever?  Fine, there's a place for that.  CAP ain't it.  Instead of being everything to everybody in order to plead people in the door, we need to embrace what makes us unique. 

The only reason there is an NCO "program" at all is because it was the pet project of a CAP National Commander. He used the power of his office to establish it and that's about as far as it got.
None of the stuff that needed to happen to grow it and to eventually open it to non-prior service members has ever happened because there is no real support for the program.
The intent now seems to be to let it dry up and die like a weed.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 04:28:48 PMThe intent now seems to be to let it dry up and die like a weed.

Which is exactly why:

- there's probably 3-4x as many NCOs as when I joined in 2016 (I don't have the numbers on hand but was told a number that's around 3-3.5x last year by the CAP/CCC)
- every event I attend I get sentiments asking where to seek out NCOs for recruitment (or CAP officers asking how to convert to NCO status)
- the only place I ever hear any negative feedback regarding what we do is CAPTalk (analogous to quite a few other things in CAP, all the whining is here, not in the real world)

CAP needs them as members, not NCOs, per se. That's the gist.

The discussion here is on the basis of the logic of the program and the assertion
that somehow a military NCO makes an uber-member walking in the door.

Outside the discussions here, most people are just looking for help, and
either believing, or being polite about, the rhetoric.

The other thing that needs to be said (or asked), is how, exactly, one
"seeks out NCOs" for recruiting in areas that have little to no military presence?
These idea simply don't scale, especially with the ongoing draw-downs.

Sure if you happen to be near a base, you'll have a higher number of military in
your units ranks due the same random / circumstantial recruiting as anyone else.

You know what?  Units on airports have more pilots, and ones near fire stations
have fire guys.

Look at it from the other vector - the "new NCO program" was sold literally as a
savior of CAP, and that these members were crucial to its future success.
If that were really the case, then CAP is cooked anyway, because the majority of units
have zero ability to recruit NCOs, or anyone else,  "per se". 

You git what you git and you don't throw a fit...

Also, 5 pages of thread (+10 years) and still not a single thing indicated that
a military NCO can do better or different then any other member.

It is good to know that I can walk away for 1 year and return to same conversation by the same few members.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMMost of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Not today. Today, all of that is now ran by civilian or contractor. All of my awards have been processed pre-approval and post-approval by civilian personnel. The only military presence was the commanders' signatures or giving that award recommendation form to the enlisted admin just so they can turn it over to the civilian personnel. The last year I have been heavily interacting with finance. The PAC is all civilian. IT is contracted out at bases except a few forward deployed bases. Anytime I have a computer issue, it is contact the Helpdesk or contact Mr/Ms So-and-so with Acme contracting.

Anyway, I just say this, for adult members, we keep the polo shirt (for meetings, SAR, flying, etc) and the aviator shirt & combo (for dress events). Get rid of all other uniforms. No military ribbons or badges, only CAP. Senior Members are referred to as Mr/Ms (or Airman) and eliminate grade insignia. If too much, then only commanders have officer rank (only when in that spot), everyone else is Mr/Ms or Airman. No more officer or NCO. For cadets, leave it as it is today.

Alright, see ya'll next year or so. I am sure, this same conversation will be continuing with the same few members.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PMIt is good to know that I can walk away for 1 year and return to same conversation by the same few members.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMMost of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Not today. Today, all of that is now ran by civilian or contractor. All of my awards have been processed pre-approval and post-approval by civilian personnel. The only military presence was the commanders' signatures or giving that award recommendation form to the enlisted admin just so they can turn it over to the civilian personnel. The last year I have been heavily interacting with finance. The PAC is all civilian. IT is contracted out at bases except a few forward deployed bases. Anytime I have a computer issue, it is contact the Helpdesk or contact Mr/Ms So-and-so with Acme contracting.

Emphasizes my point even more.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PMSenior Members are referred to as Mr/Ms...

Oh suuuuurreee...adopted the oppressive nomenclature of the misogynistic patriarchy.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PM(or Airman)

Air "man"?

I can't even.

Seriously though, I agree, and it'll never happen unless NHQ is willing to lose another 30%
of adult members overnight.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 05:57:00 PMCAP needs them as members, not NCOs, per se. That's the gist.

I'm having a hard time believing just how many times this needs to be repeated. Perhaps an example that goes the other way helps?

CAP has a chaplain corps, which 'hires' people from a particular candidate pool because there are actually missions inside CAP for which religious ministers are, on the basis of the training they undergo and/or their religious appointment, uniquely better qualified than other members to perform.

For example: pastoral care of the membership (and possibly others in the ES context, c.f. psychological first aid), implementing the character development program, leading religious rites of various kinds, supplementing the USAF chaplaincy, etc.

The structure of the organization should respect and reflect the responsibilities of the people within it. To that extent, the chaplain corps make some kind of basic sense to me.

On the other hand, the CAP NCO corps doesn't have any distinctive responsibilities and creating it just seems to run into the edge of Occam's razor.

Let me be entirely clear here: we should be recruiting and retaining all the senior members we can use to support the missions of CAP on the basis of a clear-eyed understanding of what senior members do. If service NCOs are an untapped resource from that perspective, we should absolutely tap that resource.

If allowing service NCOs who join CAP to 'retain' their grades and uniforms helps with recruiting and retaining good senior members, then maybe that's a good enough reason to do it all by itself (although why you'd keep other people from joining the NCO 'track' is mysterious).

In that case, the NCO program can be nothing more than an equivalency program between 'officer' and 'NCO' grades and be written into ten lines of a regulation.

However, at the moment, it's a bunch of ill-described duty assignments and factually-dubious assertions about the assumed skillsets of former service NCOs coupled with time-in-grade / temporary promotion / tenure requirements that differ completely from CAP "officer" grades, limits to number of promotion spots authorized at various echelons (got two great TSgts that you'd like to promote in your squadron? tough - squadrons are only authorized one promotion spot for MSgt), limitations on command responsibilities and other stuff that just doesn't seem to achieve anything.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 31, 2021, 08:12:02 PMCAP has a chaplain corps, which 'hires' people from a particular candidate pool because there are actually missions inside CAP for which religious ministers are, on the basis of the training they undergo and/or their religious appointment, uniquely better qualified than other members to perform.

For example: pastoral care of the membership (and possibly others in the ES context, c.f. psychological first aid), implementing the character development program, leading religious rites of various kinds, supplementing the USAF chaplaincy, etc.

The structure of the organization should respect and reflect the responsibilities of the people within it. To that extent, the chaplain corps make some kind of basic sense to me.

I'm in agreement with all of your points with the exception of Character Development.

While I have a great relationship with some of our Chaplains in CAP, I also want to advocate that I am vehemently opposed to the notion that Chaplains are better suited and more capable to discuss, from a non-secular standpoint, moral standards and applications within the cadet corps, namely Character Development forums.

Most of these topics are actually adolescent-focused concepts that can easily be facilitated by untrained persons with virtually the same level of quality and consistency. I'll grant the idea that, sure, there may be some specificity in youth outreach in the training curriculum for pastorship/clergy, but I don't think that's a strong enough point for the entirety of the CD program. At its core, it's really a team-building and ethics study set, and it's distinctly non-religious.

On that notion, I don't want to turn this into a topic about the Chaplain Corps or secular vs. non-secular programming.

But my point is that, much like the NCO Corps, we seem to bottleneck certain aspects of CAP because "That's how we do it."

Someone made a great statement on another thread a month or so ago regarding mentoring new members when they said, and I'm paraphrasing, that the best mentors are often those who are unassigned as a mentor but rather build a relationship with an individual based on expertise and mutual personality similarities.

If there is any real core value to the NCO Corps in CAP, maybe it's that. Military NCOs can be great relationship-builders and mentors for other military NCOs. People gravitate to where they're comfortable, and while we tell everyone that stepping out of your comfort zone works wonders, that either comes with literal authority making that happen or by building enough trust and confidence in those around you to be consciously willing to make that leap. But it's a lot like other prior service members who often have a natural bond and camaraderie just by having that affiliation alone; they gravitate to one another because they share that background.

BUT...in this type of organization...is that bond enough to cause them to stay? At some point, the relationships aren't enough for success. It's definitely part of the equation, but a great unit doesn't function solely on relationship building. It requires competency of the leaders, task assignment and management, and the ability to maintain a corps of individuals to fulfill all of the duties required to make that unit function. And in this organization, grades don't really make much of a difference there. I think it can be a long shot to say that even professional development (eherm...E&T) is even strong enough to make that difference since most members will never reach Level 4 or 5.

Bringing in NCOs (or even new officers for that matter) help to provide manpower resources. But is it enough to maintain retention on that notion?

Most NCOs I've come across on the outside want to be treated as NCOs. Most E-4s who never were actual NCOs want to be treated like NCOs but didn't even have that background (sure, maybe a taste of it...and fair enough, they can grow into it; after all, they're the next closest thing, right?). CAP, in most of my experience, does not offer an opportunity to be treated as an NCO in a manner that is identifiably different from an officer because the positions are literally the same function.

So while we can boast about bringing in a number of NCOs into a unit, I'm curious as the retention in one or two years. Obviously, each unit will be different. But I'm not sold that getting to wear stripes is the only thing that makes them stay. It takes far more than grade to retain members here.

I've known several CAP NCOs who started as NCOs, became officers to hold a command position, then reverted back to being an NCO once their command service was over. Come on, at that point, what's the darned difference, guys?

OK ... I'll ask what might be a dumb question.  All this talk of recruiting NCOs.  Is this really specific to them working with 13 and 14 year old Cadets? Recruiting them for that purpose?  On the senior side, I would see it as just recruiting "warm bodies" to train in specialities and increase membership.

Another thing to remember is that not all NCO's are the same.
Totally depends on which branch of service and what their job (aka MOS/AFSC/RATE) was.
If you were an Infantry NCO in the Army or Marines then you probably have lots of practice in leading large groups of people. But if you were an Air Force SSGT working in the COMM/NAV Shop or a Navy PO3 on a submarine you probably don't have that experience.
So just because they were an NCO doesn't mean they are any better for CAP then any other adult we recruit.

Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2021, 08:58:44 PMOK ... I'll ask what might be a dumb question.  All this talk of recruiting NCOs.  Is this really specific to them working with 13 and 14 year old Cadets? Recruiting them for that purpose?  On the senior side, I would see it as just recruiting "warm bodies" to train in specialities and increase membership.

That is why we recruited them. Their ability to teach BMT subjects such as military customs and courtesies far exceeds that our non-prior-service members. That said, they are also filing in files that are not cadet-oriented as well.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 09:05:42 PMSo just because they were an NCO doesn't mean they are any better for CAP then any other adult we recruit.

See above. Non-prior service folks simply have a harder time getting up to speed in the arena of military customs and courtesies and drill and ceremonies.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 09:53:47 PMTheir ability to teach BMT subjects such as military customs and courtesies far exceeds that our non-prior-service members. That said, they are also filing in files that are not cadet-oriented as well.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 09:55:09 PMSee above. Non-prior service folks simply have a harder time getting up to speed in the arena of military customs and courtesies and drill and ceremonies.

Here is where you are apparently equating a local challenge with the justification for a national program.

It takes non-prior adults about 10 minutes to figure out customs and courtesies at the level CAP requires,
and while it's certainly more prevalent in the CP, it's not "BMT level" and when it is, that's where the problems start.

You also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMHere is where you are apparently equating a local challenge with the justification for a national program.

Nope. Cadet Programs is nationwide.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMIt takes non-prior adults about 10 minutes to figure out customs and courtesies at the level CAP requires, ...

ROTFLMAO. Sorry, no disrespect intended, but you can believe that if you want. But it ain't true.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PM...and while it's certainly more prevalent in the CP, it's not "BMT level" and when it is, that's where the problems start.

Odd. Very odd. Encampments are designed to be BMT light in regards to military C&C and D&C.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMYou also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Denigrating your local units is fine, we are having amazing success with our local Guard and Resrve units. YMMV.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 10:29:18 PMEncampments are designed to be BMT light in regards to military C&C and D&C.

They are literally not.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMYou also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Bob, unless you're actually a member of said unit you probably need to stop talking.
Because the Guard and Reserve of today is totally different from the "weekend warriors" of the sixties.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 11:04:05 PMBob, unless you're actually a member of said unit you probably need to stop talking.
Because the Guard and Reserve of today is totally different from the "weekend warriors" of the sixties.

No one said they weren't, but that doesn't change the reality, and there are always exceptions in both directions.