CAP Talk

In this post COVID year, we are assessing the results of our July 2020 decision to recruit to the NCO Corps. We had over half a dozen interested current and prior service NCOs in our initial pipeline. Now 8 months later we have three in our unit and active. Our unit CC raves about the amazing work they do and our cadets are thriving with their robust ability to explain, demonstrate, train and coach military customs, courtesies, and drill and ceremonies, even during a challenging year. We are growing and the NCO corps has certainly passed the first six months of existence in our unit with flying colors!

The process is simple, the rewards are real. Join in and see what can happen!

What duty positions are you using them in?

What's your advertising strategy?

Quote from: Jester on March 26, 2021, 12:50:53 PMWhat duty positions are you using them in?

Cadet programs and Recruiting and Retention. But they have performed so many additional admin duties that it is hard to enumerate them all. Amazing teammates!

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 26, 2021, 01:44:21 PMWhat's your advertising strategy?

Personal visits to the veterans groups and recruiting and local NG units.

If you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam

In one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes and the third would probably not have joined.

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam

Something we heard, again and again, is "I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. Why would I want to be an officer?"

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:01:46 PM

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam

Something we heard, again and again, is "I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. Why would I want to be an officer?"

OK, thanks. good data points.

 I was wondering if they'd have joined without (or if our "officer" ranks would be a barrier), and that's seemingly a solid answer as to an affinity bias. Or, "our cultural fit", to use another phrase for the same thing. It is interesting to me from a recruiting standpoint (setting aside performance, since the actual volunteer jobs are identical, and since we haven't any solid empirical data either way on cadet outcomes).

It could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint, with the null hypothesis being that recruiting and retention rates between former military NCOs and former military officers are statistically not different (apples to apples, the grade being the variable).

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint

As pointed out previously, it's not like "NCO"s have any meaningfully defined duties that are different from "officer" senior members, other than to advise on the NCO program and coordinate with other echelons thereof; so I think that's just about the only purpose right now.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PMIn one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes

Former military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 10:50:07 PMFormer military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?

Former USAF NCO who became a SM and earned his bars. Once he was aware that the NCO slot was available, he chose that route.

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint, with the null hypothesis being that recruiting and retention rates between former military NCOs and former military officers are statistically not different (apples to apples, the grade being the variable).

V/r
Spam

Active duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 10:50:07 PM

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint

As pointed out previously, it's not like "NCO"s have any meaningfully defined duties that are different from "officer" senior members, other than to advise on the NCO program and coordinate with other echelons thereof; so I think that's just about the only purpose right now.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PMIn one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes

Former military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?

Could be a situation like I might have done - join CAP and go up through the ranks as an officer, join the military and become an NCO, and then revert to CAP NCO. I chose to remain an officer.

Just a thought.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 11:24:25 PMActive duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.

Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, I understand the point that Spam is trying to make is something more like 'if letting NCOs join as "NCOs", rather than making them join as "officers", helps with recruitment/retention, then perhaps that justifies CAP's otherwise non-existent NCO program on its own'.

I think it's great that you're having good luck recruiting NCOs. However, the fact of the matter is there's nothing distinctive in CAP that differentiates the responsibilities of CAP NCO-grades from officer-grades. It's the exact same professional development program, for example, and the duties of CAP NCO-grades are as unlike those of military NCOs as those of CAP officer-grades are unlike those of military officers.

The old saw about "I'm an NCO, I work for a living" is more-or-less meaningless inside of CAP, with respect to CAP mission responsibilities.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 11:47:19 PM

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 11:24:25 PMActive duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.

Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, I understand the point that Spam is trying to make is something more like 'if letting NCOs join as "NCOs", rather than making them join as "officers", helps with recruitment/retention, then perhaps that justifies CAP's otherwise non-existent NCO program on its own'.

I think it's great that you're having good luck recruiting NCOs. However, the fact of the matter is there's nothing distinctive in CAP that differentiates the responsibilities of CAP NCO-grades from officer-grades. It's the exact same professional development program, for example, and the duties of CAP NCO-grades are as unlike those of military NCOs as those of CAP officer-grades are unlike those of military officers.

The old saw about "I'm an NCO, I work for a living" is more-or-less meaningless inside of CAP, with respect to CAP mission responsibilities.

You are correct. That said, the reality is that the NCO program is a distinctive (both by uniform and by qualification) corps that has a unique utility. Every CAP NCO is prior or current service NCO. Therefore they are a "known" component of the organization as a whole.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 12:33:56 AMthe reality is that the NCO program is a distinctive (both by uniform and by qualification) corps that has a unique utility.

Cite please.

Just a single thing that any member can do, or not do, differently or preferably better, based on their insignia.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 12:33:56 AMEvery CAP NCO is prior or current service NCO. Therefore they are a "known" component of the organization as a whole.

The organizaiton knows they were in the military, that's it.

Last I checked, the military services requires you be at least 17, which means NCOs, per se,
have no specific experience or training dealing with adolescents, any more, or less
then anyone else off the street.

CAP doesn't do the kind of SAR a PJOC would, and it doesn't need fieldcraft.

NCOs are not likely to be pilots on the whole.

"Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, ..."

My comments were not stereotyping - they are anecdotes based on my own experience.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMThe organizaiton (sic) knows they were in the military, that's it.

Last I checked, the military services requires you be at least 17, which means NCOs, per se,
have no specific experience or training dealing with adolescents, any more, or less
then anyone else off the street.

I have never seen a 17yo NCO. NCOs do have specific training in being leaders.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMCAP doesn't do the kind of SAR a PJOC would, and it doesn't need fieldcraft.

Odd, who brought up fieldcraft? Then again, ground navigation is a course we do teach, right?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMNCOs are not likely to be pilots on the whole.

Some are - some are not, so what?

Re: 17 yo NCOs - not happening in today's military. Even having accelerated promotions, the amount of training/schooling necessary for that would take someone past his/her 18th birthday. Even in my time, it would have been almost impossible.

Quote from: SarDragon on March 27, 2021, 01:20:46 AMRe: 17 yo NCOs - not happening in today's military. Even having accelerated promotions, the amount of training/schooling necessary for that would take someone past his/her 18th birthday. Even in my time, it would have been almost impossible.

I don't think he meant 17 year old NCOs.  He was talking about how we are different in that CAP has 14 year old prepubescent little kids as Cadets.  And NCOs have zero experience leading that age group.

^ Thank you.

Still waiting on that "one thing" - it's been 15+ years here and still nada.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 02:43:36 AM^ Thank you.

Still waiting on that "one thing" - it's been 15+ years here and still nada.

That "one thing" is work. The current service NCOs also have access to their own network. The resources our NCO team have brought to bear have been astounding. But if you don't want to deal with it, like your aversion to social media, don't.

My report is the success we have had. And it is real.

If letting interested people keep the bling they're used to from their military days helps recruit great members, it's probably worth it. My only concern is that a new member who thinks they "had" to keep their stripes because they're better than officers or feel they've "earned them" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how CAP works. That could come back to bite them in the rear pretty hard down the road as they come to grasp that regardless of your bling, everyone does everything regardless of insignia. Hopefully the NCO indoc process pushes pretty hard that, hey, great you're a NCO, we're thrilled you're here but being a NCO really won't matter in the context of CAP.

I've seen it on multiple occasions with prior military folks coming into CAP and getting all wrapped around the axel trying to stick to the military processes they are used to, thinking only certain people are supposed to do certain things, and my favorite, thinking we adhere to most military customs (one prior service army guy told a cadet not to salute him at an FTX because, "you don't salute officers as it tells the snipers who to shoot first." Dude, if we're worried about snipers out here, we're gonna have to redo the ORM matrix).

While integrating a NCO into the cadet program or regular squadron duties isn't any different than any other member, NHQ continues to push special NCO assignments that have no clear job duties other than "to be NCOs" which is neither helpful to the units being assigned NCO nor to the NCO who likely wants to contribute in a meaningful manner.

Lastly, as someone who has worked with plenty of NCOs inside and outside of CAP, there is nothing I would assume about their capabilities just because they're wearing stripes. Their capabilities vary as much as the people in any other profession.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 03:14:55 AMThat "one thing" is work. The current service NCOs also have access to their own network. The resources our NCO team have brought to bear have been astounding.

The question that is being asked is not "what good are [former] service NCOs in CAP?".

The question is "why is it important that those NCOs are recruited into CAP as CAP NCO-grades?". Or, alternatively put, "what is the purpose of the CAP NCO program?".

You keep answering the first question with responses about the distinctive experience, values, network etc. of people who are/have been military NCOs. We're actually looking for an answer to the other question. i.e. why is it important that when SMSgt Jane Goodfellow joins CAP, she is appointed at the grade of SMSgt rather than 1st Lt?

Now, there are all kinds of bad reasons, as Fubar explains so eloquently in the post above. We're hoping you have some good ones. To make it abundantly clear, the answer should be of the form "CAP NCOs can do ..." not "Current and former service NCOs can do ..."

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 27, 2021, 12:36:46 PMThe question is "why is it important that those NCOs are recruited into CAP as CAP NCO-grades?". Or, alternatively put, "what is the purpose of the CAP NCO program?".

1 - The NCOs prefer remaining NCOs.
2 - Their ability to relate to the cadets, especially with regards to customs, courtesies and drill and ceremonies is FAR superior to other CAP members.
3 - In many cases their service-related connections are valuable.
4 - Their NCO service training has been reflected in their volunteer service. It shows in their professionalism and extraordinary work ethic.

#1 is the basic "why", but it also allows them to be seen as NCOs, and that distinction has a value all its own.

Finally, why keep asking? I am reporting on our positive experience with the program. You are free to ignore it. It works, it adds value in recruiting, retention and overall efficiency, but it is not mandantory.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 01:54:05 PMFinally, why keep asking?

... because there doesn't actually seem to be a good answer? ... because we don't get it?

CAP is an organization of limited resources, particularly at the National level, and the volunteer membership has a reasonable right to ask questions about effectiveness. You offered an update on '[the] NCO Program ... from the field', and you shouldn't be surprised if people ask questions about what the program actually means to you, particularly if that program doesn't make sense to them.

If you didn't expect questions, then I suggest that you've been on CAP Talk long enough to know that your expectation was ill-formed.

In your list of reasons, #2 through #4 are all, still, answering the same wrong question. #1 gets closer to the heart of the matter but begs the question. It assumes that there's an NCO role in CAP to which being a service NCO has some kind of continuity. As discussed, ad nauseam, there is not. There is only CAP senior membership, which is just the same as NCO or officer grade.

If "remain [an] NCO" just means "wear a uniform that more closely approximates the one I wore in the service, and have a CAP grade that sounds like the grade I had in the service" then that's totally fine. The NCO "program" is just a recruitment hook, as has previously been suggested. There's nothing innately wrong with that.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 27, 2021, 02:17:22 PMIn your list of reasons, #2 through #4 are all, still, answering the same wrong question. #1 gets closer to the heart of the matter but begs the question. It assumes that there's an NCO role in CAP to which being a service NCO has some kind of continuity. As discussed, ad nauseam, there is not. There is only CAP senior membership, which is just the same as NCO or officer grade.

OK, so ignore the NCO program. Ignore the success. Since there is no distinction wrt to grade, why not eliminate all of them? (BTW the answer is the cadet program would suffer, and the cadet program benefits when seeing active CAP NCOs, but you discount that, so, OK - ignore the whole thing.)

Well first up, Johhny, I want to thank you - you did answer MY question fully (regarding recruiting). 

Secondly, I feel that it is important to recognize that all our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only (I got some flak for using the perjorative label "pretend" w.r.t. CAP Colonels and SNCOs in another earlier thread, so I apologize and I'll avoid that in the future). Regardless of hurt feelings, any CAP repeat CAP grade is purely honorary... none of our "officers" hold a commission from the Congress of the United States, and none of our "NCOs" or formerly warrants hold similar warrants or delegated authority from the Departments of the Air Force or other branches. If you WERE an AD Lt Col, you NOW are a CAP honorary Lt Col, and same as a former NCO.

So, from that perspective, when there are zero differences in terms of the job duties in local billets, and CAP "officers" and "NCOs" are treated exactly alike in terms of responsibility and duty performance, the only resulting difference would be seeing a different uniform. So we're back to that. It is all about uniforms, and attitudes, only.

If the use of a uniform and a honorary rank works well to recruit people, just as it presumably does for dentists and CFIs, then to return to my original point, I would support the NCO corps program wholeheartedly. We need people with motivation.

However, finally, the prejudiced statements about perceived worth of "officers" and the divisive statements about the work ethic of other members, are inappropriate for training instructors, and if that truly is emblematic of the lack of respect being demonstrated in front of receptive cadets, then I would absolutely shut the NCO program down regardless of any improvement in recruiting, before they infect impressionable cadets. I don't believe that's a typical mindset although I've seen/heard it in CAP before, sadly, and that's a watch item for me among my squadrons. I too have heard the "work for a living" cracks, and the "don't salute me in the field" sniper comments, oddly enough, but pushing a culture of disrespect is UNSAT. Further, I've spoken with literally dozens of great cadet SNCOs over my several decades in CAP who stuck/stagnated and refused to progress to their Mitchell and beyond because they had been infected with the "cult of noncom" instead of a balanced professional ethos. They had learned a disrespectful and disdainful attitude towards becoming a cadet officer (which is the stated program goal, to turn cadets into cadet officers). That is a CP mission fail brought about by these attitudes which unless carefully countered, is actually detrimental to the program.

Thanks for your feedback and best wishes for growing a healthy program.

V/r
Spam

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cadet

Definition of cadet2a: one in training for a military or naval commission [emphasis added "commission"]

especially : a student in a service academy

^^^ This, all day...except...

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 04:24:54 PMall our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only

Untrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

The only "honorary" grade(s) are the ones presented to (generally older) members as lifetime capstones or
in recognition of some singular achievement (often outside of CAP).

Just because CAP grades do not confer authority, per se, that doesn't make them "honorary".

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 04:39:44 PM^^^ This, all day...except...

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 04:24:54 PMall our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only

Untrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

The only "honorary" grade(s) are the ones presented to (generally older) members as lifetime capstones or
in recognition of some singular achievement (often outside of CAP).

Just because CAP grades do not confer authority, per se, that doesn't make them "honorary".

Fair enough from that point of view.

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 04:24:54 PMany CAP repeat CAP grade is purely honorary...

I disagree. They represent achievements - real achievements. To call them "purely honorary" is not at all accurate.

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 04:24:54 PMHowever, finally, the prejudiced statements about perceived worth of "officers" and the divisive statements about the work ethic of other members, a

No where did I denigrate other members, I referred to the positive aspects of the NCOs. You read more into that than I said.

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 04:24:54 PMSo, from that perspective, when there are zero differences in terms of the job duties in local billets, and CAP "officers" and "NCOs" are treated exactly alike in terms of responsibility and duty performance, the only resulting difference would be seeing a different uniform. So we're back to that. It is all about uniforms, and attitudes, only.

It is about my actual experience. Your mileage may vary.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 04:39:44 PMUntrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

Right; outside of the tiny fraction of adult membership that will wear eagles or stars, CAP grade does have meaning but that meaning is essentially "degree of progress within the senior member professional development program or possession of a mission-related skill".

My questions for all of the naysayers and critics:

1 - What experiences have you had with CAP NCO's?
2 - Have you or anyone in your unit reached out to the recruiting stations and NG and Reserve units in your area?

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 05:25:31 PMNo where did I denigrate other members, I referred to the positive aspects of the NCOs

When you wrote (I paraphrase, loosely) "A has a level of professionalism, specialized knowledge and superior work ethic that is amazing; my experience with B has been very different. B tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly", did it not occur to you that you might be seen to praising A at the expense of B?

It seems several readers have taken that impression.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 27, 2021, 05:59:35 PMIt seems several readers have taken that impression.

They may have chosen to attribute a negative spin to what I reported. I'd suggest that, in the future, they assume respect as well as showing it.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 05:37:47 PMMy questions for all of the naysayers and critics:

1 - What experiences have you had with CAP NCO's?
2 - Have you or anyone in your unit reached out to the recruiting stations and NG and Reserve units in your area?

I'm not sure that I'm a naysayer, but I am a critic (of everything) so:

1. Since joining in 1983 I've seen CAP NCOs go (as a recognized thing), and come back. In the context of every member wanting to feel valued and special, they understandably have a desire to be recognized (as specialists, in this case as cadet specialists). However, as I've observed them, their performance as a group has not significantly varied from other members. It is in this respect analogous to other "specialist" groups within CAP (e.g. Hawk Mountain and BB graduates, with special attitudes and special uniforms but really, just normalized performance). I've not observed any particular performance linked to the stripes, as you might expect a USAF/USN weapons school "patch wearer" graduate to be incrementally better/expert at their job. As I say, on occasion I've run across the corrosive elitist attitude which required corrective command action, but that hasn't ever reached the level of systematic problems (yet). But, as with all "special" people, this is a watch item for me as a CAP commander.

2. Yes, numerous times over the years - while commanding units on and off bases. I've worked with numerous AD and former NCOs (and officers) as fellow CAP members. With many of these we had to draw their background out of them, and it wasn't a Big Thing (i.e. they could care less about grade/status, they just wanted to fly or teach). Thus, I was interested in your specific focused recruiting via selling and presenting to vets groups, and the resulting retention and other factors. Thanks.

V/r
Spam

PS, Johhny, you may not hear it, but we do. Your statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias, which if culturally spread through cadets is indeed a problem in an officer training program:

""I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. "
"a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly."

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 06:53:08 PMPS, Johhny, you may not hear it, but we do. Your statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias, which if culturally spread through cadets is indeed a problem in an officer training program:

Not a bias, an actual set of experiences. None of which I share with the cadets.

Now, maybe you could be the first to answer the questions I posed above?

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 06:23:54 PMThey may have chosen to attribute a negative spin to what I reported. I'd suggest that, in the future, they assume respect as well as showing it.

It is very sad to see a criticism of your colleagues wrapped up in an appeal to our core values like that.

There was no disrespect implied in my question; and it came after giving the largest possible margin for the benefit of doubt. In the spirit of improvement and with all respect, allow me to suggest simply that if your intent is to give credit for the qualities of one group, then doing so without contrasting another is the better way to go.

This idea that a military NCO is especially suited to be a "Cadet Specialist" has no factual or experiential  basis.

Military NCOs do not receive any special training in dealing with adolescents, not even Drill instructors, and in most cases I've seen the idea that they are somehow uber-mensches with cadets is exactly the opposite of reality.

One example being the offed heard encouragement to delay promotion in order to savor the non-existent "Chief Experience".

A late 20's year old E5 without kids of his own doesn't have any particular skills or experience in regards to a 14 year old who won't get a haircut and tells him to take his White Claw and go salute himself.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 07:00:06 PM

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 06:53:08 PMPS, Johhny, you may not hear it, but we do. Your statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias, which if culturally spread through cadets is indeed a problem in an officer training program:

Not a bias, an actual set of experiences. None of which I share with the cadets.

Now, maybe you could be the first to answer the questions I posed above?

... ?
I literally answered you by the numbers, above.
And, you certainly are sharing the bias and the experiences with cadets here on CT.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 27, 2021, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 06:23:54 PMThey may have chosen to attribute a negative spin to what I reported. I'd suggest that, in the future, they assume respect as well as showing it.

It is very sad to see a criticism of your colleagues wrapped up in an appeal to our core values like that.

There was no disrespect implied in my question; and it came after giving the largest possible margin for the benefit of doubt. In the spirit of improvement and with all respect, allow me to suggest simply that if your intent is to give credit for the qualities of one group, then doing so without contrasting another is the better way to go.

Fair enough.

My heads spins reading these long threads trying to make heads or tails of them.

How many years now have y'all been debating this NCO issue?

Obvious it'll always be an issue. Will forever be differing opinions.

Happy to be a CAP civilian volunteer. Simpler, easier, just get my jobs done down here in the trenches.

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 07:16:19 PMI literally answered you by the numbers, above.

My apologies, I did not see your response.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 07:08:05 PMThis idea that a military NCO is especially suited to be a "Cadet Specialist" has no factual or experiential  basis.

Military NCOs do not receive any special training in dealing with adolescents, not even Drill instructors, and in most cases I've seen the idea that they are somehow uber-mensches with cadets is exactly the opposite of reality.

One example being the offed heard encouragement to delay promotion in order to savor the non-existent "Chief Experience".

A late 20's year old E5 without kids of his own doesn't have any particular skills or experience in regards to a 14 year old who won't get a haircut and tells him to take his White Claw and go salute himself.

You ignored what I said. Almost NONE of our SMs have the skills and experience you denigrate the NCOs for not having. What I said was:

"2 - Their ability to relate to the cadets, especially with regards to customs, courtesies and drill and ceremonies is FAR superior to other CAP members."

And I stand by that opinion.

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 06:53:08 PM2. Yes, numerous times over the years - while commanding units on and off bases. I've worked with numerous AD and former NCOs (and officers) as fellow CAP members. With many of these we had to draw their background out of them, and it wasn't a Big Thing (i.e. they could care less about grade/status, they just wanted to fly or teach). Thus, I was interested in your specific focused recruiting via selling and presenting to vets groups, and the resulting retention and other factors. Thanks.

Too soon to have a personal opinion on retention. Anectdotal evidence suggests little difference from the norm. What was interesting was their reaction to the idea that there was a spot "reserved" for them based on their experience and training.

Quote from: Spam on March 27, 2021, 07:16:19 PMYour statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias...

NOT an "anti-officer bias", rather personal experience with prior service officers who enter at their retirement grade (typically MAJ or LTC) and then exhibit the behavior I spoke of. And they have, in my experience, left the program after a year or two of NOT understanding that we are not the military.

Contrariwise the current and former Wing VC in my prior Wing are prior service NCOs who, in spite of their silver oak leaves, out-work any ten other members.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 11:26:37 PMContrariwise the current and former Wing VC in my prior Wing are prior service NCOs who, in spite of their silver oak leaves, out-work any ten other members.

Proof that it's not the rank you wear in CAP and each person, regardless of background, can  bring something to the table in their own way. Some don't bring anything to the table, regardless of their military service, or rank they held/hold.

Good Lord, you recruited retired NCOs from the Viet Cong, as well?
You certainly know your target audience!

;D ;D ;D

Cheers!
Spam

Quote from: Stonewall on March 28, 2021, 12:05:08 AMProof that it's not the rank you wear in CAP and each person, regardless of background, can  bring something to the table in their own way. Some don't bring anything to the table, regardless of their military service, or rank they held/hold.

Of course, no one denies that. My point is that current and prior service NCOs are a vertical that we can recruit from that is often untapped and who bring a number of baked-in qualifications that have real value.

Ohhhhhhh this again.  Hooraaaaaaaayyyyy.

As far as NCOs not having any special skills/talents, etc with cadets I notice that we seem to win an awful lot of wing/region Sorensons, including the last 2 national ones.  A lot of annual awards in technical areas like comms too.  Interesting for such a small segment of the membership. 

I realize that this is the pancake breakfast and we do it every month, but come on already. 

1 - Sorenson?

2 - You'd try to show that NCOs are uber-members via the "of the nominated awards"?

So if a teacher wins an award from his teachers union, that doesn't document demonstrable improvement in his students outcomes, if my Dachshund wins the cute dog show prize that doesn't mean she is the smartest and can run fast, and if a rich guy wins an election that doesn't mean he's the best qualified person to lead. Award selections are very often based on who got put in and who is approving or voting - subjective, rather than on empirical criteria.

Which doesn't prove anything pro or con: we haven't seen any evidence based on other than anecdotal evidence that being an NCO makes a difference to cadet outcomes one way or the other. What I am hearing in this thread thats new (and worthwhile, to me) is some (anecdotal) evidence as to a good recruiting technique for members, which may be useful in and of itself.

Which is a good thing, when it works, right?

V/r
Spam

[edit: yes, we do have a Dachshund, a rescue in fact, who occasionally reminds me of the CT Wing patch. Its a good thing she's so cute because she's dumb as a brick, definitely not a SAR dog].

Shrug.  I can't control who is put in and who isn't.  The only thing I can assume is that the ones who are put in are doing better work than their peers. 

For a population that is 10% or less of the senior membership, I just notice a trend in that particular indicator of quality.

I don't think that the cadet program is an officer training program, it's a phased, progressive leadership program.  NCOs model and demonstrate NCO leadership, which is something we lack as an organization. 

In my squadron, the squadron NCO is part of the command team with the commander and both deputies.  The NCOIC of cadet programs works with the deputy commander for cadets, handling the tactical level items (training schedules, quarterly training plans, cadet feedbacks) while the CDC handles operational/strategic items and interfaces with the commander. 

That's the same concept we teach cadets and expect them to perform.  Walk the walk and model it on the senior side.

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMShrug.  I can't control who is put in and who isn't.  The only thing I can assume is that the ones who are put in are doing better work than their peers. 

For a population that is 10% or less of the senior membership, I just notice a trend in that particular indicator of quality.

From my perspective, having experienced the controversial [mis]use of the old CAP-MAP data in the 80s and 90s to reward favored units and individuals, and the favoritism I've seen in discarding actual performance data in favor of personal bias for annual "best of" awards, I have learned to have little confidence in the CAP award system, unless I know for a fact that the selection team were evaluating actual comparative data rather than old boy/girl systems. So, with respect, I don't see that trend you observe as a valid index of worth. I just can't assume it, based on experience. Sorry...

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMI don't think that the cadet program is an officer training program, it's a phased, progressive leadership program.  NCOs model and demonstrate NCO leadership, which is something we lack as an organization.

Agreed, it is a progressive program, in which cadets learn direct (NCO) leadership, and then move on to indirect (officer) leadership. That progression means that we don't have built in off ramps and we don't endorse "parking" people at C/SNCO grades. There is no program element for "professional CAP Cadet NCO". Those who linger/stop there are stalling out. CAPR 60-1 lists officership as a Phase III requirement, defining the cadet program as an officer training program, and further states in "CHAPTER 5. CADET ADVANCEMENT, 5.1.1. Core Curriculum. The set of learning activities all cadets participate in along their journey toward the Spaatz Award constitutes the core curriculum". So, yes, the cadet program is in fact an officer training program in fact, and always has been (c.f. the former "cadet contract" to complete the program).

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMIn my squadron, the squadron NCO is part of the command team with the commander and both deputies.  The NCOIC of cadet programs works with the deputy commander for cadets, handling the tactical level items (training schedules, quarterly training plans, cadet feedbacks) while the CDC handles operational/strategic items and interfaces with the commander.

That's the same concept we teach cadets and expect them to perform.  Walk the walk and model it on the senior side.

That's a great model there, I would say. It is exactly what I've done for decades, having the Cadet First Shirt present at all staff meetings. It also goes hand in hand with the goal of socializing him/her to indirect leadership principles as the next step in his progression. It fits well with participative leadership principles, and the concepts of openness and fairness (to ensure that the enlisted cadets have visibility into policy making, analysis, goal setting, and even personnel decisions by the Commander based on analysis and recommendations by cadet staff through the C/CC).

With the new "Org of CAP" revision, I was displeased to see that position definitions were removed (including cadet PDs). Every six months when in command billets, when we rotated cadet staff jobs, I historically had printed off one pagers for the selectees *(including the C/1SGT) and we'd have a staff meeting to read them out and set expectations/establish a battle rhythm. I really wish that we still had that resource of official position descriptions to help guide us.

Good discussion. Thanks Jester!

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMI don't think that the cadet program is an officer training program, it's a phased, progressive leadership program.  NCOs model and demonstrate NCO leadership, which is something we lack as an organization. 

Exactly!

Quote from: Spam on March 29, 2021, 02:02:25 PMWith the new "Org of CAP" revision, I was displeased to see that position definitions were removed (including cadet PDs). Every six months when in command billets, when we rotated cadet staff jobs, I historically had printed off one pagers for the selectees *(including the C/1SGT) and we'd have a staff meeting to read them out and set expectations/establish a battle rhythm. I really wish that we still had that resource of official position descriptions to help guide us.

Good discussion. Thanks Jester!

V/r
Spam

Supposedly when 20-1 was renumbered as 30-1 there was supposed to be a corresponding CAPP 30-1 with duty positions.  That hasn't materialized to my knowledge.

I hand out the one-page duty descriptions from the cadet staff handbook stapled to a 60-90 when I put a cadet in a new duty position, then tell them we'll talk about it next meeting.  Seems effective.

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMThe only thing I can assume is that the ones who are put in are doing better work than their peers. 

You would do well to disavow yourself of this notion.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 04:42:21 PM

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 01:14:23 PMThe only thing I can assume is that the ones who are put in are doing better work than their peers.

You would do well to disavow yourself of this notion.

Maybe yes, maybe no, but what I'm not going to do is automatically crap on the achievements of every award winner just because they were unfortunate enough to be recognized by their leadership. 

Your wing just had a posting for a new commander and from what I can tell you meet the criteria.  Please step up and fix this problem because the automatic assumption that the award program has no integrity is pretty problematic in an organization that constantly touts that awards are one of the ways we "pay" volunteers.

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 04:55:14 PMPlease step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

Again I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMAgain I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Are you sure that's the right word?

Warrant Officer insignia is still grade, and professional development "grade" is just as irrelevant
and subjective as everything else.

If grade is unimportant to the mission, just making up different grade doesn't solve the problem.

Those in leadership positions don't need grade, either. No one in CAP who is unclear on who is in charge
is going to figure it out based on insignia.  If you need to know, you know, and if you don't know,
you likely don't need to know.

Protip: It's the dude everyone is looking at / asking / blaming, depending on circumstance.

Eliminating grade does, and is the only "solution" to this issue. Which isn't an issue.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 05:04:47 PM

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 04:55:14 PMPlease step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

Yeah as soon as I typed it I realized it was too close to being a solution.

Have fun griping on CAPTalk I guess.

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 09:12:59 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 05:04:47 PM

Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2021, 04:55:14 PMPlease step up and fix this problem...

That's funny right there.

Yeah as soon as I typed it I realized it was too close to being a solution.

Have fun griping on CAPTalk I guess.

Yeah, except it's not.  First, the idea that the only thing that happens is "griping on CAPTalk"
is either naïve or insulting.  Dealer's choice.

Second, with deference to the above, I've made my stance on what CAP needs to
do loud, clear, and in detail both here and elsewhere in person. CAP, has indicated it
has no interest in those ideas, or basically change at any level.  It wants
station-keepers and doorholders. 

At some point both the wall and the forehead are tired of the conversations.

Third - http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23638.msg423339#msg423339

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMNo need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 29, 2021, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMNo need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 10:10:36 PMNo one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

Huh?

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 29, 2021, 10:24:17 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 10:10:36 PMNo one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

Huh?

Not to speak on his behalf, but I think his point is that grades in CAP indicate nothing to the average member.

You walk into a room as a 1st Lt. In that same room, there are three lieutenant colonels, a major, two captains, six first lieutenants, a second lieutenant, two technical sergeants, and three new seniors without grade. They're wearing a mix of polos with grey slacks, Class B Blues, whites, and one is in some semi-identifiable unauthorized attire. Of those individuals, one captain is a squadron commander, and one first lieutenant is also a squadron commander. One of the lieutenant colonels reports to that same captain back at their home unit, and the rest are a mixture of wing staffers and former squadron commanders still hanging around the local unit headquarters. At that moment, you realize that none of their grades actually indicate anything.

CAP does not run via an "Up or out" philosophy.

Quote from: SarDragon on March 29, 2021, 08:27:08 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMAgain I'll just point out that if Rank is unimportant to the Mission, we should all be wearing Warrant Officer Insignia based on our progression through the Professional Development Grades (Level 1 = Warrant Officer, Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer II, Level 3 = Chief Warrant officer III, Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer IV, Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer) and only those in proscribed leadership positions should wear Officer Rank while in the position and revert back to their Warrant Grade on completion of the assignment.

No need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Are you sure that's the right word?

Thank you, I think "prescribed" was the word I was looking for.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 10:10:36 PM

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 29, 2021, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMNo need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

That's the best answer right there.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 30, 2021, 01:52:34 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on March 29, 2021, 10:10:36 PM

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 29, 2021, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 29, 2021, 06:44:49 PMNo need for NCOs and/or Officer Ranks then, a more inclusive CAP then.

Inclusive? How so?

No one has the opportunity to feel superior on the basis of irrelevant outside activities.

That's the best answer right there.

Like:
USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

There's a measuring tape shortage which will hopefully be restocked now that the Suez Canal is back open. Until then...can we close this thread down already?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 30, 2021, 03:11:12 PMThere's a measuring tape shortage which will hopefully be restocked now that the Suez Canal is back open. Until then...can we close this thread down already?

In the midst of the standard CAPtalk noise, there really is some good stuff in here.

:)

Let's all just stay on-topic and keep the snarkiness out of it and we'll continue for now. Just a general announcement to all.

~9907

Currently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMWhat I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

I asked that question to one of the more senior CAP NCOs. His answer, to the best of my recollection, was, "We are working on that. BUT there are those that want to shut down the NCO program and so most of our political capital (he said resources, iirc) is being used to survive."

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMWhat I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

The primary role and function of an NCO in the military is to serve as a link or bridge
between the enlisted personnel and the Office Corps, and to serve as motivation and leadership
in training the troops in their charge.

For those just tuning in...

There.

Are.

No.

Enlisted.

Personnel.

In.

CAP.

And.

Never.

Will.

Be.

Until that changes, there is no program nor mission purpose for the NCOs to fulfill,
and any shoed-horned mental gymnastics used to characterize them as "Cadet Specialists"
or "advisors to command" is a retconning of a Goode Idea that wasn't well thought out
before implementation.

A brand new member with zero CAP experience (who happens to be an Army NCO) who can't spell WMIRS is going to advise
CAP leadership on what, exactly?

On how to wear a uniform the organization doesn't allow them to wear?

Drill for adults?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 01:54:07 AMUntil that changes, there is no program nor mission purpose for the NCOs to fulfill,

OK, you hang on to that attitude. Ignore the NCO program.

Those of us who have embraced it will reap the rewards.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMCurrently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

The original implementation plan signed off on by the AF had that as the ultimate goal.  However, as we've seen in this thread in the feet-dragging and gnashing of teeth and CAP's usual glacial pace to accept or commit to change of any kind has us waaaayyyyyy behind.

I completely support the opening of NCO ranks to non-prior service members.  The vast majority of members do enlisted work.  We need to restrict the officer ranks more than we do. 

You can't expect to be associated with a branch of the military, wear its uniforms, use its symbols and titles and then waive your civilian union card when expected to actually conform to its rank structure. 

Want to be in a youth organization that basically has adults as den mothers or whatever?  Fine, there's a place for that.  CAP ain't it.  Instead of being everything to everybody in order to plead people in the door, we need to embrace what makes us unique. 

CAP embraces the use of military brevity and Air Force terminology in a manner that is distinctly non-reflective of actual military application.

Let's start with our organizational structure:

Our smallest unit, a Flight, is undefined as to what that flight consists of. In most cases, they're either start-up cadet units or "knocked down" squadrons that didn't have the leadership oversight and/or roster size to maintain squadron status.

Squadrons essentially act like Air Force wings or land-based battalions (maybe companies) in their structure. Literally all of the headquarters components and support staffing is entirely housed within the squadron structure with almost no support from higher headquarters to sustain the unit financially, logistically, or in any administrative or service support capacity. Aside from cadet squadrons, other unit types are not defined by a role (e.g., Search & Rescue Squadron, Aerial Reconnaissance Squadron, Communications Squadron, etc.). It's really whatever the squadron feels like doing based on its members' desires and locale's opportunity.

Then, there's the Group level which, in many CAP wings, is often non-functional beyond a layer of oversight. Most groups don't coordinate inter-squadron operations, and that's really, because, as previously stated, the squadrons are self-sustained. Squadron 1 isn't a Communications Squadron who needs to procure uniforms and meals from Squadron 2 while Squadron 3 handles administration and recruit processing.

Then we have CAP Wings which orchestrate some administrative and logistical services for squadrons, but it's really on an infrequent basis. In most cases, it seems that Wings really organize statewide activities, but they don't coordinate multiple squadrons to work together to fulfill mission requirements or tasks; and I think a lot of this has to do with the nature that, once again, squadrons are nearly independent and are not prescribed a specific role.

So while all of this may work for CAP in our organization's own way, we have to make a clear distinction that we are not actually modeled after military units. We share terminology, but not functional definitions nor execution.

So let's look a the member corps:

Cadet Programs is honestly the easiest to follow. It's literally a training cadre and support staff to manage an ROTC-type program. Pretty simple in its structure and intent.

But as someone above pointed out, very actually at that, most of our members do what a military branch would perceive as a typical enlisted role; maybe NCO, maybe junior enlisted. Take vehicle maintenance. Sure, there would be an officer-in-charge over the maintenance program, but most of the logistical requirements would be fulfilled through enlisted staffing. Most of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Before this gets crazy: None of this is intended to jab at any enlisted assignment or "grunt work." It's extremely important to support the greater organization as a whole.

However, in most cases, ANY member (other than a cadet) can not only perform the task, but he held as ultimately responsible for that functional area beneath the command level. Nothing restricts the role of Director of Cadet Programs for a wing to the requirement to be a CAP officer. Nothing restricts your squadron's Safety Officer or Logistics Officer from being an NCO. A Flight Officer, Staff Sergeant, or Second Lieutenant can all perform those functions.

But then we separate them into different professional development tracks and we start discussing, "Well, NCOs should have an NCO course, and officers should have an officer course." Wait a second...it's the same function. Why separate what/how they learn? In CAP, how is the Safety Officer being a Master Sergeant any different than the Safety Officer being a Captain? There is zero difference there.

So is the problem that we don't have a structure that really supports differentiating these roles? Is the problem that we don't have the resourcing to differentiate these roles? Or is the problem that most CAP officers couldn't even tell you the difference between the military application of an officer and NCO?

Or......is there event a problem at all?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMOr......is there event a problem at all?

<<*shack*>>

The reality is that, like many CAP situations, the insignia was approved before the plan was.

Quote from: Jester on March 31, 2021, 01:21:55 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 31, 2021, 12:13:04 AMCurrently we accept prior or active military officers, who are eligible for CAP grade matching earned military grade, up to lieutenant colonel.

We also provide a  path for non-prior military to earn appointment or promotion within CAP officer grades.

At various points in time, (going back to the 1970s, if not earlier) a similar situation existed with active or former military NCOs.

I think it's only right that NCOs who have served receive the same consideration from CAP as officers.

What I don't understand is why the NCO  corps in CAP  is treated differently after the point of initial appointment. Non prior military CAP members can't choose to pursue service as a CAP NCO, and the reasons underlying this don't seem to be based on the needs of CAP or its members.

We clearly recognize different organizational needs than the regular military. As a general rule, the regular military requires  all officers to earn a bachelor's degree. In CAP, one can rise at least to colonel without holding any degree.

Please note that I am simply emphasizing a difference here, not criticizing anyone's  level of education!

I can see that USAF  senior NCOs and their peers from the other services have worthwhile knowledge and experience to bring to CAP. We should welcome those who seek to join us.

What I don't understand is why a CAP senior member without previous military service can't pursue appropriate training to prepare the for similar roles, starting as staff sergeant,  particularly with the guidance and example of such accomplished NCOs to help them prepare.

The original implementation plan signed off on by the AF had that as the ultimate goal.  However, as we've seen in this thread in the feet-dragging and gnashing of teeth and CAP's usual glacial pace to accept or commit to change of any kind has us waaaayyyyyy behind.

I completely support the opening of NCO ranks to non-prior service members.  The vast majority of members do enlisted work.  We need to restrict the officer ranks more than we do. 

You can't expect to be associated with a branch of the military, wear its uniforms, use its symbols and titles and then waive your civilian union card when expected to actually conform to its rank structure. 

Want to be in a youth organization that basically has adults as den mothers or whatever?  Fine, there's a place for that.  CAP ain't it.  Instead of being everything to everybody in order to plead people in the door, we need to embrace what makes us unique. 

The only reason there is an NCO "program" at all is because it was the pet project of a CAP National Commander. He used the power of his office to establish it and that's about as far as it got.
None of the stuff that needed to happen to grow it and to eventually open it to non-prior service members has ever happened because there is no real support for the program.
The intent now seems to be to let it dry up and die like a weed.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 04:28:48 PMThe intent now seems to be to let it dry up and die like a weed.

Which is exactly why:

- there's probably 3-4x as many NCOs as when I joined in 2016 (I don't have the numbers on hand but was told a number that's around 3-3.5x last year by the CAP/CCC)
- every event I attend I get sentiments asking where to seek out NCOs for recruitment (or CAP officers asking how to convert to NCO status)
- the only place I ever hear any negative feedback regarding what we do is CAPTalk (analogous to quite a few other things in CAP, all the whining is here, not in the real world)

CAP needs them as members, not NCOs, per se. That's the gist.

The discussion here is on the basis of the logic of the program and the assertion
that somehow a military NCO makes an uber-member walking in the door.

Outside the discussions here, most people are just looking for help, and
either believing, or being polite about, the rhetoric.

The other thing that needs to be said (or asked), is how, exactly, one
"seeks out NCOs" for recruiting in areas that have little to no military presence?
These idea simply don't scale, especially with the ongoing draw-downs.

Sure if you happen to be near a base, you'll have a higher number of military in
your units ranks due the same random / circumstantial recruiting as anyone else.

You know what?  Units on airports have more pilots, and ones near fire stations
have fire guys.

Look at it from the other vector - the "new NCO program" was sold literally as a
savior of CAP, and that these members were crucial to its future success.
If that were really the case, then CAP is cooked anyway, because the majority of units
have zero ability to recruit NCOs, or anyone else,  "per se". 

You git what you git and you don't throw a fit...

Also, 5 pages of thread (+10 years) and still not a single thing indicated that
a military NCO can do better or different then any other member.

It is good to know that I can walk away for 1 year and return to same conversation by the same few members.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMMost of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Not today. Today, all of that is now ran by civilian or contractor. All of my awards have been processed pre-approval and post-approval by civilian personnel. The only military presence was the commanders' signatures or giving that award recommendation form to the enlisted admin just so they can turn it over to the civilian personnel. The last year I have been heavily interacting with finance. The PAC is all civilian. IT is contracted out at bases except a few forward deployed bases. Anytime I have a computer issue, it is contact the Helpdesk or contact Mr/Ms So-and-so with Acme contracting.

Anyway, I just say this, for adult members, we keep the polo shirt (for meetings, SAR, flying, etc) and the aviator shirt & combo (for dress events). Get rid of all other uniforms. No military ribbons or badges, only CAP. Senior Members are referred to as Mr/Ms (or Airman) and eliminate grade insignia. If too much, then only commanders have officer rank (only when in that spot), everyone else is Mr/Ms or Airman. No more officer or NCO. For cadets, leave it as it is today.

Alright, see ya'll next year or so. I am sure, this same conversation will be continuing with the same few members.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PMIt is good to know that I can walk away for 1 year and return to same conversation by the same few members.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2021, 02:57:43 PMMost of the people who handle awards processing, financial reimbursements, IT helpdesks...virtually everything that "keeps CAP running behind the scenes" would be enlisted duty.

Not today. Today, all of that is now ran by civilian or contractor. All of my awards have been processed pre-approval and post-approval by civilian personnel. The only military presence was the commanders' signatures or giving that award recommendation form to the enlisted admin just so they can turn it over to the civilian personnel. The last year I have been heavily interacting with finance. The PAC is all civilian. IT is contracted out at bases except a few forward deployed bases. Anytime I have a computer issue, it is contact the Helpdesk or contact Mr/Ms So-and-so with Acme contracting.

Emphasizes my point even more.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PMSenior Members are referred to as Mr/Ms...

Oh suuuuurreee...adopted the oppressive nomenclature of the misogynistic patriarchy.

Quote from: LSThiker on March 31, 2021, 06:11:38 PM(or Airman)

Air "man"?

I can't even.

Seriously though, I agree, and it'll never happen unless NHQ is willing to lose another 30%
of adult members overnight.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 05:57:00 PMCAP needs them as members, not NCOs, per se. That's the gist.

I'm having a hard time believing just how many times this needs to be repeated. Perhaps an example that goes the other way helps?

CAP has a chaplain corps, which 'hires' people from a particular candidate pool because there are actually missions inside CAP for which religious ministers are, on the basis of the training they undergo and/or their religious appointment, uniquely better qualified than other members to perform.

For example: pastoral care of the membership (and possibly others in the ES context, c.f. psychological first aid), implementing the character development program, leading religious rites of various kinds, supplementing the USAF chaplaincy, etc.

The structure of the organization should respect and reflect the responsibilities of the people within it. To that extent, the chaplain corps make some kind of basic sense to me.

On the other hand, the CAP NCO corps doesn't have any distinctive responsibilities and creating it just seems to run into the edge of Occam's razor.

Let me be entirely clear here: we should be recruiting and retaining all the senior members we can use to support the missions of CAP on the basis of a clear-eyed understanding of what senior members do. If service NCOs are an untapped resource from that perspective, we should absolutely tap that resource.

If allowing service NCOs who join CAP to 'retain' their grades and uniforms helps with recruiting and retaining good senior members, then maybe that's a good enough reason to do it all by itself (although why you'd keep other people from joining the NCO 'track' is mysterious).

In that case, the NCO program can be nothing more than an equivalency program between 'officer' and 'NCO' grades and be written into ten lines of a regulation.

However, at the moment, it's a bunch of ill-described duty assignments and factually-dubious assertions about the assumed skillsets of former service NCOs coupled with time-in-grade / temporary promotion / tenure requirements that differ completely from CAP "officer" grades, limits to number of promotion spots authorized at various echelons (got two great TSgts that you'd like to promote in your squadron? tough - squadrons are only authorized one promotion spot for MSgt), limitations on command responsibilities and other stuff that just doesn't seem to achieve anything.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 31, 2021, 08:12:02 PMCAP has a chaplain corps, which 'hires' people from a particular candidate pool because there are actually missions inside CAP for which religious ministers are, on the basis of the training they undergo and/or their religious appointment, uniquely better qualified than other members to perform.

For example: pastoral care of the membership (and possibly others in the ES context, c.f. psychological first aid), implementing the character development program, leading religious rites of various kinds, supplementing the USAF chaplaincy, etc.

The structure of the organization should respect and reflect the responsibilities of the people within it. To that extent, the chaplain corps make some kind of basic sense to me.

I'm in agreement with all of your points with the exception of Character Development.

While I have a great relationship with some of our Chaplains in CAP, I also want to advocate that I am vehemently opposed to the notion that Chaplains are better suited and more capable to discuss, from a non-secular standpoint, moral standards and applications within the cadet corps, namely Character Development forums.

Most of these topics are actually adolescent-focused concepts that can easily be facilitated by untrained persons with virtually the same level of quality and consistency. I'll grant the idea that, sure, there may be some specificity in youth outreach in the training curriculum for pastorship/clergy, but I don't think that's a strong enough point for the entirety of the CD program. At its core, it's really a team-building and ethics study set, and it's distinctly non-religious.

On that notion, I don't want to turn this into a topic about the Chaplain Corps or secular vs. non-secular programming.

But my point is that, much like the NCO Corps, we seem to bottleneck certain aspects of CAP because "That's how we do it."

Someone made a great statement on another thread a month or so ago regarding mentoring new members when they said, and I'm paraphrasing, that the best mentors are often those who are unassigned as a mentor but rather build a relationship with an individual based on expertise and mutual personality similarities.

If there is any real core value to the NCO Corps in CAP, maybe it's that. Military NCOs can be great relationship-builders and mentors for other military NCOs. People gravitate to where they're comfortable, and while we tell everyone that stepping out of your comfort zone works wonders, that either comes with literal authority making that happen or by building enough trust and confidence in those around you to be consciously willing to make that leap. But it's a lot like other prior service members who often have a natural bond and camaraderie just by having that affiliation alone; they gravitate to one another because they share that background.

BUT...in this type of organization...is that bond enough to cause them to stay? At some point, the relationships aren't enough for success. It's definitely part of the equation, but a great unit doesn't function solely on relationship building. It requires competency of the leaders, task assignment and management, and the ability to maintain a corps of individuals to fulfill all of the duties required to make that unit function. And in this organization, grades don't really make much of a difference there. I think it can be a long shot to say that even professional development (eherm...E&T) is even strong enough to make that difference since most members will never reach Level 4 or 5.

Bringing in NCOs (or even new officers for that matter) help to provide manpower resources. But is it enough to maintain retention on that notion?

Most NCOs I've come across on the outside want to be treated as NCOs. Most E-4s who never were actual NCOs want to be treated like NCOs but didn't even have that background (sure, maybe a taste of it...and fair enough, they can grow into it; after all, they're the next closest thing, right?). CAP, in most of my experience, does not offer an opportunity to be treated as an NCO in a manner that is identifiably different from an officer because the positions are literally the same function.

So while we can boast about bringing in a number of NCOs into a unit, I'm curious as the retention in one or two years. Obviously, each unit will be different. But I'm not sold that getting to wear stripes is the only thing that makes them stay. It takes far more than grade to retain members here.

I've known several CAP NCOs who started as NCOs, became officers to hold a command position, then reverted back to being an NCO once their command service was over. Come on, at that point, what's the darned difference, guys?

OK ... I'll ask what might be a dumb question.  All this talk of recruiting NCOs.  Is this really specific to them working with 13 and 14 year old Cadets? Recruiting them for that purpose?  On the senior side, I would see it as just recruiting "warm bodies" to train in specialities and increase membership.

Another thing to remember is that not all NCO's are the same.
Totally depends on which branch of service and what their job (aka MOS/AFSC/RATE) was.
If you were an Infantry NCO in the Army or Marines then you probably have lots of practice in leading large groups of people. But if you were an Air Force SSGT working in the COMM/NAV Shop or a Navy PO3 on a submarine you probably don't have that experience.
So just because they were an NCO doesn't mean they are any better for CAP then any other adult we recruit.

Quote from: etodd on March 31, 2021, 08:58:44 PMOK ... I'll ask what might be a dumb question.  All this talk of recruiting NCOs.  Is this really specific to them working with 13 and 14 year old Cadets? Recruiting them for that purpose?  On the senior side, I would see it as just recruiting "warm bodies" to train in specialities and increase membership.

That is why we recruited them. Their ability to teach BMT subjects such as military customs and courtesies far exceeds that our non-prior-service members. That said, they are also filing in files that are not cadet-oriented as well.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 09:05:42 PMSo just because they were an NCO doesn't mean they are any better for CAP then any other adult we recruit.

See above. Non-prior service folks simply have a harder time getting up to speed in the arena of military customs and courtesies and drill and ceremonies.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 09:53:47 PMTheir ability to teach BMT subjects such as military customs and courtesies far exceeds that our non-prior-service members. That said, they are also filing in files that are not cadet-oriented as well.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 09:55:09 PMSee above. Non-prior service folks simply have a harder time getting up to speed in the arena of military customs and courtesies and drill and ceremonies.

Here is where you are apparently equating a local challenge with the justification for a national program.

It takes non-prior adults about 10 minutes to figure out customs and courtesies at the level CAP requires,
and while it's certainly more prevalent in the CP, it's not "BMT level" and when it is, that's where the problems start.

You also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMHere is where you are apparently equating a local challenge with the justification for a national program.

Nope. Cadet Programs is nationwide.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMIt takes non-prior adults about 10 minutes to figure out customs and courtesies at the level CAP requires, ...

ROTFLMAO. Sorry, no disrespect intended, but you can believe that if you want. But it ain't true.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PM...and while it's certainly more prevalent in the CP, it's not "BMT level" and when it is, that's where the problems start.

Odd. Very odd. Encampments are designed to be BMT light in regards to military C&C and D&C.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMYou also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Denigrating your local units is fine, we are having amazing success with our local Guard and Resrve units. YMMV.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 10:29:18 PMEncampments are designed to be BMT light in regards to military C&C and D&C.

They are literally not.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 10:10:06 PMYou also realize, right, that in many guard and reserve units the level of customs and courtesies, not to mention
drill ever used makes CAP look like the The Olde Guarde right?

Bob, unless you're actually a member of said unit you probably need to stop talking.
Because the Guard and Reserve of today is totally different from the "weekend warriors" of the sixties.

Quote from: PHall on March 31, 2021, 11:04:05 PMBob, unless you're actually a member of said unit you probably need to stop talking.
Because the Guard and Reserve of today is totally different from the "weekend warriors" of the sixties.

No one said they weren't, but that doesn't change the reality, and there are always exceptions in both directions.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2021, 11:03:11 PM

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 31, 2021, 10:29:18 PMEncampments are designed to be BMT light in regards to military C&C and D&C.

They are literally not.

Wrong. Look you hate the NCO program, and social media. We all get that. But while you are entitled to your own opinions, facts are not yours to make up.

We have had great success with social media. We are starting to have great success with the NCO program. Another two years as Squadron of Distinction under our belt, so maybe we are doing a lot of things right.

In the two years since I escaped the Wing from H*LL, my unit has grown from 76 members to 125. My ideas have added a little bit of octane to an already robust unit with a great leadership cadre. If you have any desire to excel as a leader, you could do as they did and try new ideas. If all you care to do is carp, complain and denigrate, maybe it is time for you to let new blood lead?

I appreciate your experience, thank you for your service and honor that service. You have added real value for me on many topics. This thread is not one of those times.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 30, 2021, 03:11:12 PMThere's a measuring tape shortage which will hopefully be restocked now that the Suez Canal is back open. Until then...can we close this thread down already?

Has the resupply arrived already?

It's only been a day...

Fork. Done. Click. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.