Cadets Involvement in SAR

[capchiro]

I read that 99% of all ELT searches are non-distress and 1% are distress related.  Does that really qualify for search and rescue?  Also, CAP doesn't really support search and rescue for cadets, which really sends a mixed signal to cadets and seniors both.  Having worked non-distress and distress situations, I am have mixed feelings about allowing cadets to do more than scene security on distress missions.  sometimes, they are pretty ugly,  Unfortunately there are not many finds that have survivors and the ones that do, probably require more advanced medical care than our cadets are qualified to perform.  I appreciate the excitement generated by SAR, but it does provide a deliema for squadrons, seniors, cadets, and squadron commanders.  Unfortunately, a few years ago, we had some cadets and maybe some younger senior members that were responding to ELT searches with blue lights and speeding...This was not the image we want to display.  As mentioned earlier, some cadets go out to ELT searches that are UDF missions with 72 hour packs, including hunting knives, etc.  If one looks at the equipment requirements for UDF type missions, one will find that this is overkill.  Perhaps a better use for the money spent on equipment would be to spend it on flight lessons or FAA private pilot ground school training instead.  After all, we are an aviation oriented outfit and we are to encourage avaition careers and interests....Just my humble opinion, as usual....     

[Matt]

*sighs*

I would have to beg to differ on certain points.  Not on the fact that most crashes are quite grizzly, the mainly are.

Qualified for SAR, yes, qualified as SAR, no.  SAR is not only ELT searches, but also incorporated missing persons.  And please don't forget our reinstatement of Disaster Relief.  The gruesome-twosome hurricanes have brought back a major part of ES, that being Disaster Relief (DR).  DR in a sense incorporates SAR, or limited SAR value (i.e. going door-to-door ensuring that personnel are alright after a hurricane).

Sending cadets out on the missions.  I'm not sure how you train personnel but I would as soon have a cadet GTM or UDF Team Member as their SM counter-part.  I cannot speak for other units, groups, or wings, but I know that we train our cadets JUST as well as our senior members because of the fact they the may be placed on alert and respond to missions.

As for a blue light or a red light special - I know for certain my squadron commander would kick my A** from Wisconsin to Georgia if myself or the GT would use one; furthermore, he'd be just in doing so.  I'd be lying if I said I hadn't heard of occasions, I have, and I don't much like that image portrayed on CAP, same as you.

ELT searches are over 99% of the time non-emergency.  The occasion that it may be crucial is that where there are survivors, however, statistics, sadly are not in that favor.  They really do not deserve an on-board red (blue) light special.  If an officer volunteers to give you one because they feel there is imminent danger, then I would say follow them, it's a better bet.

On the subject of medical training.  50/50 shot at a senior being more and better trained than a cadet.  It's not a real good basis to say that SM's have more medical training than cadets.  Well, as a figurative question, what if there was an 18 year old cadet who was also a National Guardsman, who, on one weekend a month was a Corpman, I'd count Battle Field medicine a smidge higher than my friend who is just under being an EMT who is a SM.

As for the "Rambo" knives on missions.  Nope.  I'd have to say leave 'em at home or take 'em to scout camp.  Here in the real world, we aren't sleighing Charlie.  I have a nice Ka-Bar in which I use as a pizza cutter, I kid you not.  I have only seriously carried it when I was on a scout trek in New Mexico (Philmont).  I won't lie; I do have it in my bag for the more than rare occasion it may be needed, but that's where it stays and I have yet to take it out or don it in the field.

72hr Gear on UDF missions.  Perhaps training of personnel to use common sense is necessary.  Ok, if you're going on a SAREX which is UDF based, go nuts, but if you're getting the nice 11PM call, get your uniform on, grab your "go" bag and well... go.



As you can see by my signature, I am a cadet.  I take to heart someone saying that I cannot do something simply because I am a cadet.  I understand that there are limitations in certain quals, and that there is a reason for such (i.e. IC, AL, etc.), but I have busted my rear earning my ratings and anyone who has trained with me would most likely concur with that.  I am a goof, but when it comes to this business I'd like to say that I keep my focus and know how to get a job done.  Cadet or Senior alike, if you have earned a rating, then you have, in theory, demonstrated the knowledge, ability, and charisma to carry out the mission at hand.

Sincerely,

Matt Kopp, c/2d Lt, CAP
WI-002, c/DOS

[Pace]

As a former cadet who was a fully rated and mission qualified ground branch director, I couldn't agree more.  If you've gone through the training and proven your abilities to a set standard and demonstrate a certain level of maturity (team leader's discretion), then you're set to go in my book.  In fact, the more I deal with senior members on ground teams, the more I find I prefer cadets.  Cadets know how to listen; mostly anyway.  Crusty 40-50 year old senior member lieutenant ground team trainees (or God forbid GTL trainees) think their age makes them more qualified than a 25 year old Operations Section Chief with 5-10 years of experience in CAP ES, so they tend not to listen ("I know what I'm doing..." kind of attitude).

There are times when CAP has no control over what the minimum age will be.  For example, if we're working for FEMA, minimum age is 18.  No questions asked.  When the ball is in our court, however, I have no problem letting a fully qualified ground team member of any age on my team as long as they have the maturity to treat the mission seriously.

[capchiro]

I respectfully reserve the right to disagree, however, I do appreciate your enthusiasm and dedication.  I think you will find more combat medics in the senior program than in the cadet program, plus doctors, nurses, paramedics, and EMT's.  That being said, CAP first aid training is inadequate for actual life threatening emergenicies in the field of a disasterous nature.  Our first aid training is basically at the level to be able take care of each other if we are injured during training or on a mission and it is very basic.  I know some members have taken extensive medical first aid training, but that is not part of the required training and is not the standard.  Please forgive my feelings that SAR is not a substantial part of the CAP cadet program, but, when you have over thirty years experience in CAP, you come to see an overall picture of the program and what it truly offers the cadets and seniors.  It is a fantastic program and certainly helps develop mature, polite, intelligent, patriotic, self-reliant, self-disciplined, well-rounded young people.  The fact that if offers some direction and excitement to some cadets that "thrive" on SAR is a good thing, but, it is just not the basis of CAP and/or the CAP cadet program.  The Air Force is putting money into aircraft and various photographic/video equipment for disaster relief.  They are not putting money into SAR ground search equipment, unfortunately.  If you want a radio, chances are you will purchase one, if you want a 24/72 hour pack, you will buy it and stock it...this is just not a priority of the program...I could go on, and on, but you get my drift...now, with all of that being said, does anybody have any advice on where/how to find an ELP'er, since the company making them, isn't?  I know they say they have a new one on the way, but that has been the word for the last year.... I am truly one of you guys, but I want my cadets to know what the program is truly about and that SAR is just kind of an exciting side thing (for cadets), that is not a requirement and that they need to concentrate on leadership, aerospace education, morale leadership, and PT/testing, first and then as an option, and if they have the time, to work on SAR training.  I truly appreciate the dedicated cadets that work SAR and some of my best ground team members over the last 20 years have been cadets (after all, ever try to get a 40-50 year old out of bed at 11:00 p.m., and especially if there is an opportunity for that  cadet to miss school the next day...), but I digress....       

[SarDragon]

Regarding L-pers, they appear once in a while on eBay, but they are usually older models, often needing crystals for 121.775. Prices are sometimes unreasonable, with an old unit selling for more than the most recent new ones. Also, these units are frequently incomplete. I haven't seen any in a couple of months.

Currently, the company is not doing upgrade work on the older units, and limited repair. Click here for the latest from L-Tronics.

[Chris Jacobs]

I think that I need to add to this because this has been my big complaint in the past.  Not just in ES but in CAP in general.  i know that right off the bat that you can't trust every cadet in the whole nation to be up to the same level as the rest.  but many of the cadets that i work with are more qualified and better at what they do in ES than many senior members that i have met.  although on the same note i have many cadets under my comand that i would not trust to do much.  i think that cadets are a lot of the time over looked for what they can do and are not given credit for the jobs they can handle.  in my experiences cadets do not seem to be as welcomed into the ES program as much as i think they should.  a lot are very qualified at what they do, and expanding on the example above about the medical qualifications, i have a cadet that is currently working toward his EMT.  i don't know of to many senior members that even have that.  i know that in my squadron i hold much higher radio qualifications than many senior members, and a lot of the time come to me for help.  i think that cadets are also better in many circumstances because they are young and able bodies.  I know a lot of senior members with bad backs, or no real drive to go and sleep in the cold on the ground.  but i have never met a cadet with a bad back, or for some odd reason, a cadet that has ever complained too badly about the cold.  i know that personally i love getting out side in the morning and freezing a little as long as we are doing ES.  I think that cadets in general are sometimes overlooked by senior members as not being on the same level as them but i feel strongly that some cadets are more mature, smarter, and better at what they do than some senior members.  i also know that some senior members realize this and specifically give cadets a lot of power because they know the cadet will do the job right.  i appreciate these senior members and hope that more can learn from them and learn to use the endless pool of cadets for ES and many other important jobs in CAP.

[Xeno]

think that I need to add to this because this has been my big complaint in the past.  Not just in ES but in CAP in general.  i know that right off the bat that you can't trust every cadet in the whole nation to be up to the same level as the rest.  but many of the cadets that i work with are more qualified and better at what they do in ES than many senior members that i have met.

Same here. The fact of the matter is, I have more cadets interested in SAR/ES then actually flying. I agree that cadets GTs should limited or regulated at least a little bit in the types of missions they perform, To be honest I don't really want my 13-15 year old cadets responding to fatalities, I don't want to put that pressure on them, I don't want them to have to see that. But, I believe it [the ES program] is necessary because, in the wake of disasters like Katrina I know that inevitably there may come a time when we don't have enough people on site to do the job. Some day we may have to use cadets. With this is mind, I want my people to be confident in knowing that they can get the job done and, as a leader, I want to be able to trust them to take the job seriously.

[Matt]

here's a hum-dinger...

Just got an email from CAC (about a week ago) stating that an individual would like to see more cadet involvement in base ops and that they would like to see a draft for a selection process of cadets to work hand-in-hand with SM's.

I personally find this to be a confusing point for a couple reasons.  The first being that I was trained by SM's who believe in cadets in ES.  Second, around here cadets DO work hand-in-hand with seniors.


What do you all think....

[capchiro]

Since ES is not mandated or supported for the cadet program, it is optional and each squadron defines the amount of ES available to their cadets, if any.  One of the above posts notes that the cadets would rather do ES than fly.  That is a problem for an Air Force supported organization that has aerospace and aviation as some of it's main goals.  If the cadet program is properly followed, it does not leave a lot of time for ES training for cadets, with the exception of weekend activities.  As far as natural disasters and non-natural disasters (perhaps as an aftermath to terrorism) there is a possibility of harm to cadets working around dangerous areas, etc.  The other big problem is the age variance of cadets, ie., 12 to 21.  How do you deny a mature 13 year old from participating on a mission, when you have an immature 16 year old participating because he has gotten qualified at a weekend encampment?  Unfortunately, the maturity of any cadet that enjoys or thinks ES is fun should be questioned.  Maturity tells us that wars, disasters and ES scenes are not fun or games...they are disasters and we all know that war has been called h*ll for a good reason.  Although ES is a necessity, it has never been deemed to be an integral part of the cadet program.  I have good reason to believe that taking cadets on ES missions ending up with downed aircraft and fatalities may turn them off of aviation...This is not what CAP or the Air Force wants....just my humble opinion.

[CAPSeahawk8]

Having been a cadet for six years in a squadron heavily involved in ES, I can say that cadet involvement in integral to the completion of the ES mission. The vast majority of ground personnel are cadets with the sprinkling of senior members. The majority of which are aircrews or mission base staff (of which i do all three). I was a cadet in a different time when we were about completing missions not protecting cadets from what the might see on the news. Sheltering them from everything will not protect them in the long run. I have several distress finds to my credit as a cadet, all of which involved fatalities. My fellow cadets had a much better time with the situation than most of the adults. We are so saturated by images of war and death that you would be surprised what the cadets can deal with..... life. As for time in the weekly meetings, there is not enough for ES. It requires to much time to become truly proficient in the tasks. My cadets now will train whenever and wherever they can to can more experience and qualifications. Twelve just earned there DR ribbon with V device for hurricane work. But thats my opinion...... I could be wrong........doubtful.


1st Lt Andy Wiggs
DOS/Cape Fear Comp Sqn
DOS/Group 3 NC Wing

[Pylon]

Not that I personally am adding my opinion here, but while discussing this issue, recall the AFI that organizes CAP:

Air Force Instruction 10-2701, Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol says in para 1.1.1.5:

CAP senior members are the primary personnel to respond to emergencies or disasters.

[Horn229]

but lets also remember we don't follow USAF regs.

[Chris Jacobs]

Senior members may be the primary resource but why not get the cadets involved and utilize them in areas where we struggle to get senior members.  instead of turning down missions due to lack of personnel and not tapping the cadet pool.  we should tap both pools and take on every mission possible.  If AFRCC calls us and we have to call them back saying we don't have the man power today that is not right.  especially when not all of our ressources have been checked.

[flyguy06]

I understand what Harry is saying. What you have to understand is different states do things differently. In Georgia. Most cadets are interested in Ground Team and ES OPS. and he is rifght. A lot of them wan to do this hooah Ranger stuff. They do go to encampments with enough gears to live inthe field for a month. I to think its uneccessary. What Harry istrying to say is ES was never ment to be such an integralpart of the cadet program. The cadet program is geared to teach youth to be leaders in an aerospace environment. If you read CAPM 52-16, very little of it is directed toward ES. Look at the National Cadet Competition. Nothing in it pertains to ES. Only recently have NCSA's been ES realted. Except for PJOC which was around when I was a cadet.

It really depends on what you want to emphasize in your unit. In my Squadron, Ilike to emphasize aviatiion. We have a ot of pilots and so we want to play on flight training. Most of ourcadets want to be pilots anyway. We really dont have the resources for a ground team anyway.

Its not that Seniors dont want cadets onmissions or think they are capable, but its just not really part of the cadet programaccording to CAPM 52-16. Its an "extra" thatt we allow cadets to participate in. A lot of these young people ae very impressionable as Iused to be when I was 18 years old.

[Matt]

Exactly, so we should impression them to continue in all of CAP's programs.  The CP does encompass all three missions, so why not allow them to train, even if it is on weekends, it's still a nice relief from the CP... then again, sometimes it may be too much of a relief 

[Chris Jacobs]

I agree.  All of the cadets in my squadron that are heavily involved in ES are also the ones that are heavily involved in the cadet programs (color Guard, staff positions...).  Cadets should be allowed to participate as much as they want as long as they give their advancement in the cadet programs side nearly equal effort.  so if that means that they spend 10 hours a week on ES, then they need to spend at least 7 hours in the cadet programs for either studying or so on. 

I think another thing that needs to be realized is that ES is a great place for the cadets to test their skills that they learn in the cadet program.  they are put in situations where they have to have good communication skills, team work, and discipline.  they must take care of their gear or it will become nonfunctional.  it is no longer having to take care of your uniform or gear just to make it look good but it then has a function that it must be up kept for.  i think that ES is a great proving ground for all that they have learned in the cadet program.

[arajca]

Exactly, so we should impression them to continue in all of CAP's programs.  The CP does encompass all three missions, so why not allow them to train, even if it is on weekends, it's still a nice relief from the CP... then again, sometimes it may be too much of a relief 

The CP does not encompass all three missions. Cadets may participate in all three missions, but the CP only encompasses the Cadet Program mission. As for allowing them to train, go for it. It provides valuable skills for them.

As for deploying cadets on ES missions, some of the restrictions come from the requesting agency(s). Because of some potential hazards, FEMA generally restricts personnel on their missions to people aged 18 and older. In my experience, most 18+ year old cadets are college students and generally are not available for deployment. Some law enforcement adn SAR agencies have the same rules.

[flyguy06]

Here is my opinion.
Should cadets be part of ES? yes, it is an activity that teaches leadership.

Does ES take away from the cadet program. Yes. The cadet program is an "AVIATION" based program, but you have units that dont do anything related to aviation. Its all ground team, first aid, rescue techniques, camping communications. Nothing dealing with flying airplanes or careers in aviation. Isn't that the main purpose of CAP? To train youth to be leaders in an aerospace environment.

Its cool to go out do all that camping and rapelling and stuff ( I am an Infantry officer, I do it all the time), but bottom line, thats NOT the main purpose of the cadet program like it or not.

[Five-seveN]

Personally, from my years in the ES field i have found that cadets are more willing to learn the ES field, and also have more time to do so. i have seen cadets shoot up threw the ES ranks with more skill than most seniors, why, its almost like they want it more. now on GTs... cadest should never lead a GT and if they do it would be with a senior. cadets on a find, and on/ in crash sites..... OK big deal, its a big car wreck,..... whats the issue, i work with other SAR orgs and one fire rescue team, and i have seen worse... cadets know what to do, they dint want to see whats in side, personally i think there are way too many soft liberal high ranking officers in CAP with no crust or back bone, lesson by a cadet... i have served on probably more missions then most cadets amid seniors and currently hold GBD in CTWG, AND IM GOOD. also I'm a cadet, cadets lead the way, they always do, they always will, this is a cadet program, if seniors want to get all soft and go south,... i know the Boy Scouts are lookin' for some new adults. thanks for helping me prove my point .....

C/Maj Russell

[flyguy06]

That was a very mature respnoce c/MAJ Russell. I see why you are the Top GTM guy

[CAPRANGER]

Good afternoon.  Recently, I have just viewed this thread, and I am disgusted.  My Cadet Commander and I, I'm the Deputy Commander, are both Cadets, YES Cadets.  We are extensively trained in the field of ES.  I am qualified in GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET, and EMT-P.  He is qualified in GBD, GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET.  I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and he went to Rhode Island Ground Search and Rescue.  In addition, I am a Firefighter.  Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.  At 0700 hrs, we got a call for a ELT search, and departed to the airport to see if maybe an aircraft had a dead battery and such.  We did not have luck, and set out into the rural area to search.  After an hour of searching, we got a call from AFRCC stating the mission had turned 911T or "REDCAP".  There was an overdue Robinson Helicopter that was goign from PA to RI, and they lost contact with it near our are at 1000 ft, it did three 360 turns, and lost contact.  Make a long story short, we found the site after hours of trading throught mud, prickers, looking after Senior Members who were lost, didn't know what they were doing etc.  We went in, shut the device off, and assesed the damage.  Pilot was DOA-impact, and the passenger was DOA-had tried to live by crawling out.  We took care of the problem, quickly and efficiently.  We did the job of a Senior?  No way?  Are Cadets REALLY that good??!!  We must be.  We understand that CAP is an avaiation agency if you will.  In addition, we also understand that CAP has three missions, each one supporting the other two.  With this in mind, Cadets have every right and responsibility to be on an ES Team, as a grumpy old Senior, who dosen't know his left foot from his right.  If we're primarily an aviation agency, and our goal is to get cadets to have careers in the military or aerospace industry, then how do we explain that much less than 25% of cadets enter military service, and even much less enter the aerospace industry?  The reason is it's not something that young men and women find interesting these days.  They are interested in learning how to do ES Operations, how to survive in the woods, etc.  Not because it's "fun", but because it's applicable to their lives.  Everday you won't even get close to flying, but there's that chance that any day, no matter what, you may be stuck in the woods with nothing, and your training, AS A CADET, will determine your survival or your sudden demise.  We put our cadets through "hell traning".  Why do we do this?  We do this so they are physically prepared, and definitely prepared mentally for any situation, REGARDLESS of age.  After our training, cadets put seniors to shame, as they should.  Seniors can stay in their vehicles while cadets perform acts of bravery and courage.  Cadets have been, and always will be leaders of ES.  This is not because of regulation, but of reality, and it's time to face it.  Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.  Cadet are ready, willing  and able bodies, ALL the time.  The understand the danger, but do it for their community, state and nation.  Cadets do ES, because you "Flyboys" are too scared and wimpy to walk through woods and see actual devastation face to face.  Cadets aren't afraid.  They know the danger, and accept it for what it is, because they believe in what's right.  You won't hardly see an AE event in your local paper with cadets, but you WILL see an ES event with cadets.  As we go evermore into this generation, CAP is being tasked more and more with ES, HLS, etc.  The better we train our cadets to do these jobs, the more our nation will thrive from Civil Air Patrol's ES Capabilities, to keep them safe and protected, with cadets on the frontlines.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
Deputy Commander
Danielson Composite Squadron

[Five-seveN]

Flyguy06, the post i posted would have only insulted the "Soft liberal officers", but its true, and there is honnestly no room for debate on this, GSAR has to be taken new level, rubbing out the "Softies" as we call and replace them with people that want to get their hads dirty, while knowing all the regs... like my self, i thinkm no actly, i know what im talkin about. thank you for your post.

C/Maj Russell

[Horn229]

Good afternoon.  Recently, I have just viewed this thread, and I am disgusted.  My Cadet Commander and I, I'm the Deputy Commander, are both Cadets, YES Cadets.  We are extensively trained in the field of ES.  I am qualified in GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET, and EMT-P.  He is qualified in GBD, GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET.  I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and he went to Rhode Island Ground Search and Rescue.  In addition, I am a Firefighter.  Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.  At 0700 hrs, we got a call for a ELT search, and departed to the airport to see if maybe an aircraft had a dead battery and such.  We did not have luck, and set out into the rural area to search.  After an hour of searching, we got a call from AFRCC stating the mission had turned 911T or "REDCAP".  There was an overdue Robinson Helicopter that was goign from PA to RI, and they lost contact with it near our are at 1000 ft, it did three 360 turns, and lost contact.  Make a long story short, we found the site after hours of trading throught mud, prickers, looking after Senior Members who were lost, didn't know what they were doing etc.  We went in, shut the device off, and assesed the damage.  Pilot was DOA-impact, and the passenger was DOA-had tried to live by crawling out.  We took care of the problem, quickly and efficiently.  We did the job of a Senior?  No way?  Are Cadets REALLY that good??!!  We must be.

So you're saying there wasn't any Senior Members with you? And from what I've gathered from your post, it was just the two of you? Well for acting so cocky, you could at least look at the reg and see that you are required to have at least 4 people on a GT, and a senior member.

We understand that CAP is an avaiation agency if you will.  In addition, we also understand that CAP has three missions, each one supporting the other two.

Wrong, the Cadet program does NOT support ES. ES is optional to cadets, not required.[/quote]

With this in mind, Cadets have every right and responsibility to be on an ES Team, as a grumpy old Senior, who dosen't know his left foot from his right.

Again, you are wrong. If a GTL doesn't want any cadets on their team, they cannot say that they have the right to be, because they don't!

If we're primarily an aviation agency, and our goal is to get cadets to have careers in the military or aerospace industry, then how do we explain that much less than 25% of cadets enter military service, and even much less enter the aerospace industry?  The reason is it's not something that young men and women find interesting these days.

Hmm, the majority of cadets I talk to either want to go to an academy, enlist, be a pilot or to simply have fun.

They are interested in learning how to do ES Operations, how to survive in the woods, etc.  Not because it's "fun", but because it's applicable to their lives.

How is it applicable in our everyday lives? Do people use L-Pers everyday? Do People go on missing person searches every day? Out of the X number of years that you've been in CAP how many mission have you gone on? I'll say 20. 20 mission in say 4 years, is that at "everyday" thing? Ya, I didn't think so.

Everday you won't even get close to flying, but there's that chance that any day, no matter what, you may be stuck in the woods with nothing, and your training, AS A CADET, will determine your survival or your sudden demise.

Uh....

We put our cadets through "hell traning".  Why do we do this?

"hell training" And you call yourself a cadet officer? A cadet officer should lead people, not put cadets through "hell training". We are NOT special forces, and we never will be. The SERE instructors are trained in pushing people to their limits, to see who can actually handle certain situations. YOU are not a SERE instructor, quit acting like you are one.

We do this so they are physically prepared, and definitely prepared mentally for any situation, REGARDLESS of age.  After our training, cadets put seniors to shame, as they should.  Seniors can stay in their vehicles while cadets perform acts of bravery and courage.

What's so "courageous" about jumping out of a 2WD 12passenger van with an L-per? Oh wait, NOTHING!

Cadets have been, and always will be leaders of ES.

This is a joke, right? Tell me this whole post have been one big joke.

This is not because of regulation, but of reality, and it's time to face it.  Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.

You know, there's this little thing called Respect for authority you should have learned before you took you Curry test. You really need to go re-read that section of the chapter, as you have crossed the line right here.

Cadet are ready, willing  and able bodies, ALL the time.  The understand the danger, but do it for their community, state and nation.

No, cadets are not ready "all the time", and they really don't understand the danger at all, until they've been through it.

Cadets do ES, because you "Flyboys" are too scared and wimpy to walk through woods and see actual devastation face to face.  Cadets aren't afraid.

Then they do NOT belong on a GT. They should understand full well what they may encounter, and anyone with that big bad cocky attitude you've been displaying through your post should stay at home. There is no room in the field for a head as big as yours, cadets that are as cocky as you need a refresher in the reality of what CAP ES really is.

They know the danger, and accept it for what it is, because they believe in what's right.

Cadets are 12-20 years old. Unless they've seen dead bodies face to face they will never know if they're ready for it. And this Macho hero "believe in what's right" is a load of crap. There is NOTHING heroic about ramp checks!

You won't hardly see an AE event in your local paper with cadets,

Then the Squadron Commanders need to do some reorganizing of the weekly meeting schedules to get some AE work in.

but you WILL see an ES event with cadets.  As we go evermore into this generation, CAP is being tasked more and more with ES, HLS, etc.

\

HLS? Cadets don't do CD missions, there's no way cadets under the age of 18 will ever do HLS.

The better we train our cadets to do these jobs, the more our nation will thrive from Civil Air Patrol's ES Capabilities, to keep them safe and protected, with cadets on the frontlines.

We are not a combatant organizations, we don't go shooting terrorists in the head, we don't restrain people, we don't rappel from choppers, we don't do EMS, we don't even report the weather!

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
Deputy Commander
Danielson Composite Squadron

So you're a C/2d Lt now? What happened to being a "C/COL"?

[Cmdbuddy]

 Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.

I must have missed something here...

Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.

Actually, it's shortened for senior members.  Meaning they're senior to you, a cadet. 

Grow up.  Your post was disgusting.

[Pace]

I'm not sure if I should get pissed off or start laughing at the over-inflated ego and ignorant arrogance.

-Daniel Pace, Senior Citizen, CAP

[usafsf]

Good afternoon.  Recently, I have just viewed this thread, and I am disgusted.  My Cadet Commander and I, I'm the Deputy Commander, are both Cadets, YES Cadets.  We are extensively trained in the field of ES.  I am qualified in GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET, and EMT-P.  He is qualified in GBD, GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET.  I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and he went to Rhode Island Ground Search and Rescue.  In addition, I am a Firefighter.  Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.  At 0700 hrs, we got a call for a ELT search, and departed to the airport to see if maybe an aircraft had a dead battery and such.  We did not have luck, and set out into the rural area to search.  After an hour of searching, we got a call from AFRCC stating the mission had turned 911T or "REDCAP".  There was an overdue Robinson Helicopter that was goign from PA to RI, and they lost contact with it near our are at 1000 ft, it did three 360 turns, and lost contact.  Make a long story short, we found the site after hours of trading throught mud, prickers, looking after Senior Members who were lost, didn't know what they were doing etc.  We went in, shut the device off, and assesed the damage.  Pilot was DOA-impact, and the passenger was DOA-had tried to live by crawling out.  We took care of the problem, quickly and efficiently.  We did the job of a Senior?  No way?  Are Cadets REALLY that good??!!  We must be.  We understand that CAP is an avaiation agency if you will.  In addition, we also understand that CAP has three missions, each one supporting the other two.  With this in mind, Cadets have every right and responsibility to be on an ES Team, as a grumpy old Senior, who dosen't know his left foot from his right.  If we're primarily an aviation agency, and our goal is to get cadets to have careers in the military or aerospace industry, then how do we explain that much less than 25% of cadets enter military service, and even much less enter the aerospace industry?  The reason is it's not something that young men and women find interesting these days.  They are interested in learning how to do ES Operations, how to survive in the woods, etc.  Not because it's "fun", but because it's applicable to their lives.  Everday you won't even get close to flying, but there's that chance that any day, no matter what, you may be stuck in the woods with nothing, and your training, AS A CADET, will determine your survival or your sudden demise.  We put our cadets through "hell traning".  Why do we do this?  We do this so they are physically prepared, and definitely prepared mentally for any situation, REGARDLESS of age.  After our training, cadets put seniors to shame, as they should.  Seniors can stay in their vehicles while cadets perform acts of bravery and courage.  Cadets have been, and always will be leaders of ES.  This is not because of regulation, but of reality, and it's time to face it.  Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.  Cadet are ready, willing  and able bodies, ALL the time.  The understand the danger, but do it for their community, state and nation.  Cadets do ES, because you "Flyboys" are too scared and wimpy to walk through woods and see actual devastation face to face.  Cadets aren't afraid.  They know the danger, and accept it for what it is, because they believe in what's right.  You won't hardly see an AE event in your local paper with cadets, but you WILL see an ES event with cadets.  As we go evermore into this generation, CAP is being tasked more and more with ES, HLS, etc.  The better we train our cadets to do these jobs, the more our nation will thrive from Civil Air Patrol's ES Capabilities, to keep them safe and protected, with cadets on the frontlines.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
Deputy Commander
Danielson Composite Squadron

Hmm OK you cocky little [mess], lets see, You feel that your all that because your a cadet and you do ES correct? well I have a different outlook about what you feel. I have been a cadet for well over 8 years(compared to your 2, and if for some reason you've been a cadet longer then 2 years and still a "C/2d Lt" (not C/2LT stupid  cadet you have the wrong abbreviation), then you have some rethinking to do of your career in CAP.

before you start judging me about being a current SM, I received all of my ES ratings as a Cadet, and I have well over 13 fully qualified ratings Compared to your 4. I will tell you, that if you EVER had the PRIVLIDGE of working with myself, or my good friend Nick Horn, on a SAR Mission, that you would be DECERTIFIED immediately from the wing level, due to your lack of following regulations. I guarantee that myself, and my friend have been on more missions then you have in your lifetime, and actually KNOW what to do on them, instead of just "rushing and rolling" your way up to a site because you think your all "HUA" about this SAR Stuff. you honestly need to slap yourself in the face and just quit CAP right now, because we don't need arrogant jerks like yourself ruining the program for everyone else. If you have any complaints about my attitude in responding to you, feel free to tell me them, because guess what, I'm active duty military and really don't give a crap about what you feel you cocky little cadet.

[whatevah]

now now... no need to call anybody descriptive names.

[usafsf]

sure there is, and if he was in person it'd be a lot more descriptive and upfront lol

[Cmdbuddy]

sure there is, and if he was in person it'd be a lot more descriptive and upfront lol

Without the filters.

[usafsf]

trust me christie, after speaking to me, this cadet would be crying, and would WANT to quit cap, if not would be forced to quit

[Five-seveN]

Personaly his post was right on, well the "Senior citizens" thing was a lil bit out there but, hes right, in some cases, cadet always are ready why... because we dont have work to hang us up, we are more set to go because, lol we read regs, and attend actual GSAR Schools that make somthing out of your self for plain fun. and in not including NESA becasue they get nothing done the whole week. ... if cap is more AE, then why dosen't nationals pay for flight lessons for cadets. HELLO it comes down to  somthing all you people for get about... and thats this...$... you honnestly think that every cadet is gunna' fork over cash to do all this stuff, LOL! thats the joke, and thats imature. cadets are givin a free choice to learn about what they want, u cant jam AE in their face all the time, whats so cool about AE any way? flight, history, ok how about this, we do our AE stuff, we read those books from nationals, thats our needed dose of AE, and o-flights, and maby the Rocketry program sometimes. face it, all of you that fight it, ES has the lead in people and members, why, because you cant go save some persons life by knowing the 3ed law of motion or knowing the affective combat range of a F-117. i personaly as C/CC permote and have to permote all CP, AE and ES, and all of your that say " they have nothing to do with eachother"...... im about to blow you out of the water.

ES is under fire by CP and AE fanatics, thats ok, Psst, did ya know AE has almost every thing to do with ES Mr Smarty Pants?

Fact: ES and AE work to gether to aid the Flight Operations on a mission! lol wow

Fact: AE informs cadets how to look for a downed pilot is survival training, and where the ELT is located on the AC, lol ES never taught me that AE did!

Fact:hmm, SARSAT and COSPAS has AE all over it, and ES right... exactly... getting shocking yet?

Fact in AE they teach you proper flight pattern around an airport, well most AC that go down, go down in the pattern, with AE i wouldnt have been able to track down this one, one time..... oops, ES strikes Agin, with ES's help.

Fact: AE taught me about the " bilistics Parachute" system, now i know how to arange my GT so they are far away from that loaded cannon.... ES and AE works like air under a jets wings.

Fact: ok the fact is i just porved you all wrong, im not cocky, just listening to all of you moan about this makes me laugh.


oh, do i need to get into how CP, AE and ES all fit in to one... ok thanks it was fun! , BTW AE is fun, and with out it, Es would never work so when cadets take part in ES training they are learning AE also. and this cant be argued.

C/Maj Russell

GBD CTWG
Mission Obs.

[CAPRANGER]

Thanks for the reply!  Anxious to tear you apart now!  If you want to tear apart, don't read into it.  There wasn't ONLY 2 Cadets, there was about 25, and one senior in the back, and who wasn't GTL qualified, to satisfy requirements.  I was speaking from terms of those who were in charge on the mission, not the actual people.

If you say ES is optional to cadets, it is to Seniors as well.  Every program supports each other, they all relate in one way or another, including CP-ES.  Why is this?  Because CP can help cadets become responsible, learn values, integrity, etc, as needed on a mission.  No one ever said ES was required, it is optional, but cadets tend to do a better job at it.

Seniors could say that, but if the cadet is qualified, they DO have every right to be there.  In in the case I'm talking about, the SM just drives.  Seniors think they rule the world, and they have all this power, in actuality, they don't.  That's why we have an IG.

Whether or not you talk to people who want to go in, or service academy and such is immaterial.  Talk means nothing, actions mean everything.  You can have a cadet say they want to get their Mitchell by January, whcih is a good goal, but if they are still a SSG by next November, they've done nothing.  It's facts and statistics I go by, and facts are that less than 25% enter service.

I wasn't talking about missions on an everday basis.  I'm talking about cadets personal lives.  There are those who do outdoors activities, hunting, fishing, hiking, etc.  They LIKE ES, because the training they receive can help them in the everday "real world", whereas, AE, can't help them ever.

Let me guess, you are a Cadet, amybe Cadet turned Senior?  Have you ever been in the military?  Let me know if you have.  We don't haze our cadets, EVER.  What we do though, is prepare them for the challenges that lie ahead.  If they want to be a part of our ground team, they work at it.  It's not easy, we test and test, until they get it right perfectly, so they have less of a chance of making that mistake in the field.  We want cadets who are ready physically and mentally, not those who are "softies" and/or went to NESA.  We have stopped cadets from going to NESA, permanently.  In our squadron, we can do as we like, not take instruction from a push over such as yourself.

I'll tell you what's courageous, risking our lives for other people, and our own team.  I have stories, but you seem to be too thickheaded to listen to our point of view.

If you think I've crossed the line, fine.  Do you really think I care?  You opinion dosen't tell me what to do.

In conclusion, our squadron can take any squadron on in an ES FTX.  We have the most qualified people around, including those who commanded regional GSAR schools.  Before you think you're the best, and let me guess, you went to NESA?  If you did, it REALLY shows.  A bunch of "softies".  We're not here to argue, but show you, cadets are the backbone of ES, and SHOULD NOT be treated differently if they know there material, and are physically and mentally prepared.  We have that in our squadron, and we're PROUD!

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

[Cmdbuddy]

Thanks for the reply!  Anxious to tear you apart now!  If you want to tear apart, don't read into it.  There wasn't ONLY 2 Cadets, there was about 25, and one senior in the back, and who wasn't GTL qualified, to satisfy requirements.  I was speaking from terms of those who were in charge on the mission, not the actual people.

25 cadets and one senior?  How did they get there?

[Cmdbuddy]

You can have a cadet say they want to get their Mitchell by January, whcih is a good goal, but if they are still a SSG by next November, they've done nothing. 

I guess you would know about that since you've been in for over 6 years (according to your other posts) and you're only a C/2d Lt

[Five-seveN]

Good Post Lt,  but the comment about "What's so "courageous" about jumping out of a 2WD 12passenger van with an L-per? Oh wait, NOTHING!" made by the AF Airman First calss is a bit out there, Obviously he vever jumped out of that 2WD van in to rubble over his head because a cat 5 wipes out most of a city. thats courage, thanks Airman for serving for us, your the man!

C/Maj Russell

[CAPRANGER]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

[CAPRANGER]

The way we got there was with one van, and a few POV's because some of our members live out of state.  Later another van showed up, but the senior member left.  In regards to being a C/2LT....Well, when you actually make something with your life, it's tough to be a CAP Junkie all the time.  Through military training, college, and Fire Dept.  I'm proud of my accomplishments, and that's all that matters, CAP has been a big part of my life, but there are definitely more things more important in life than CAP.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP

[usafsf]

Good Post Lt,  but the comment about "What's so "courageous" about jumping out of a 2WD 12passenger van with an L-per? Oh wait, NOTHING!" made by the AF Airman First calss is a bit out there, Obviously he vever jumped out of that 2WD van in to rubble over his head because a cat 5 wipes out most of a city. thats courage, thanks Airman for serving for us, your the man!

C/Maj Russell

hey ass, im not the one who stated the thing about jumping out the van go re-read it

[Cmdbuddy]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

A corporal at 18?  Fishy... What batallion and company were you in at Benning?  What unit are you in at the 82nd and what's your position there?

[CAPSGT]

Warning #2 to all involved in this thread:  CUT THE PERSONAL ATTACKS

Knowing a lot of the people involved in this thread, I think a lot of you will agree with most of what is being said on some level.

CAPRANGER & Five-seveN:  If you really read into what you are responding to, you will see that everyone is truly attacking your the attitude behind your posts.  

Understand that most of what you guys are saying are generalizations against groups.  Not all senior members are old and incompetent.  At the same time, not all cadets are automatically SAR Gods.  While your particular area may have many incompetant seniors, and a lot of good cadets, it is not true everywhere.  MDWG used to have many cadets who were the wing's top ES performers, but not so much anymore.

Nobody, cadet or senior member has a right to participate in Emergency Services.  Qualification only means that you can be permitted to go on a mission.

I'm not sure what the IG comment has to do with anything, but IGs still report to commanders.  They merely investigate facts and make recommendations.

My observation when it comes to ES personnel is this.  The ones that are extremely cocky and tell people how great they are, usually aren't that good.  It's the "quiet professional" that steals the show in action.  I recently served as the GBD for MER SAR College, where I had 5 instructors helping me (including C/Maj Horn).  The cockiest of all my instructors was the one who I will not ask to return if I am the GBD again.  I would gladly have C/Maj Horn back, he just has a tendency to return arrogance when people get arrogant.

And last thing, I resent being called a senior citizen.  I mean c'mon, I'm only 22!

[Five-seveN]

Hey Airman, right but like a typical noob, u put " NOTHING"  and didnt think about how smart some of us SAR master are, lol, Fool, you obviouslyhavent seen 5 miles of what was a town in ruin, well maby on your lil tv on CNN ( Comunist Net work"and i guess you dont have a V on your DR award, i thought i was talkin to some one with some actual SAR Exp. and btw buddy there isnt over 13 ES ratings lol u fool more like 3, and 3 more for GT ratings, lol get your story right Airman.

[usafsf]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Lets see, I highly doubt that you are a "CPL" in the army, for multiple reasons, and making a false official statement is punishable by the UCMJ, as well as pretending to be of a rank that your not. If in fact you went through these schools, and a in the Army, as you say, then you again are not following the REGS set by CAP because if you join the United States Military, you are forced to become a Senior Member. I'm sure you have heard of Levenworth, correct? If you have gone through training like you have said, then you most certainly should know that, by making a false statement such as the one that you just have made, you can easily go there. The fact that you fall under Article 31 Rights if you are in the military, means that no matter, on duty, off duty, in civies, or in uniform, on aircraft, or on ships, the UCMJ applies to you, and you will be caught for your lies.

[usafsf]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Lets see, I highly doubt that you are a "CPL" in the army, for multiple reasons, and making a false official statement is punishable by the UCMJ, as well as pretending to be of a rank that your not. If in fact you went through these schools, and a in the Army, as you say, then you again are not following the REGS set by CAP because if you join the United States Military, you are forced to become a Senior Member. I'm sure you have heard of Levenworth, correct? If you have gone through training like you have said, then you most certainly should know that, by making a false statement such as the one that you just have made, you can easily go there. The fact that you fall under Article 31 Rights if you are in the military, means that no matter, on duty, off duty, in civies, or in uniform, on aircraft, or on ships, the UCMJ applies to you, and you will be caught for your lies.

oh really dude? there arent well lets see my ES card states...
GTM2 
GTM1   
CUL 
GTL
MRO
MS
UDF
GTM3 
GES 
SET 
LSC   
FASC   
GBD   
IO   
MSO   
LO

[Five-seveN]

Mr Global Mod, i have no attitude, im just proving a simply point about ES and AE, nothing more nothing less, and you did have some good points there in your last post, now what my Lt is doin with this Cpl, i have no idea lol, i hope he has a story ready.  

thanks

[Pace]

Good afternoon.  Recently, I have just viewed this thread, and I am disgusted.  My Cadet Commander and I, I'm the Deputy Commander, are both Cadets, YES Cadets.  We are extensively trained in the field of ES.  I am qualified in GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET, and EMT-P.  He is qualified in GBD, GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET.  I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and he went to Rhode Island Ground Search and Rescue.

And people wonder why Hawk gets such a bad rap...  BTW, we senior citizens (21 - Crypt Keeper) typically have more training and perspective than uber gung-ho cadets.  Maturity has a great deal to do with it, but experience is the major reason.  I'm not going to sit here and claim my ES skills are necessarily better than yours, but I am positive that my training is much broader and experiences (training and actual) are more diverse.  I received most of my on-the-ground type training as a cadet.  Guess who trained me.  That's right, a SM.  In fact, the SMs I trained with were just as motivated as the cadets, if not moreso.  With the exception of some of my GBD experience, all of my mission staff level training and involvement has been done as a SM.  When I crossed over, I didn't become less motivated.  On the contrary, a hole slew of doors opened up to me as a SM, so I was able to start training even more in higher level ratings.  If you asked a cadet what I was doing, they would tell you I'm sitting in a building writing stuff down, lounging around, talking on the radio, etc.  That couldn't be farther from the truth, but most cadets don't see the involvement that goes into mission staff and aircrew.  Whether you like it or not, without SMs there would be no ES in CAP.

In addition, I am a Firefighter.  Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.  At 0700 hrs, we got a call for a ELT search, and departed to the airport to see if maybe an aircraft had a dead battery and such.  We did not have luck, and set out into the rural area to search.  After an hour of searching, we got a call from AFRCC stating the mission had turned 911T or "REDCAP".  There was an overdue Robinson Helicopter that was going from PA to RI, and they lost contact with it near our are at 1000 ft, it did three 360 turns, and lost contact.  Make a long story short, we found the site after hours of trading throught mud, prickers, looking after Senior Members who were lost, didn't know what they were doing etc.  We went in, shut the device off, and assesed the damage.  Pilot was DOA-impact, and the passenger was DOA-had tried to live by crawling out.

Although that was probably a good experience builder, it was far from being the first ever live mission.  BTW, in my experience, ignorant cadets get lost just as frequently as ignorant SMs.

We took care of the problem, quickly and efficiently.  We did the job of a Senior?  No way?  Are Cadets REALLY that good??!!  We must be.

Mature cadets have the potential to be just as good as low-time SMs.  However, if there's someone who has been on countless missions and has the sorties/finds to prove it, I seriously doubt you're as good as they are.  Their maturity alone over your hot-headed temper makes them better suited to lead a SAR team.  Your "bust-in and save the day" heroic attitude is very likely to get someone injured.

Cadets have every right and responsibility to be on an ES Team

Cadets have no "right" to participate in an optional program element.  The do, however, have every responsibility to progress through the cadet program and learn the values and skills it teaches.  This is why I despise dealing with most cadet officers (even as a C/Lt Col I felt like this).  Your head over-inflates and you think you're God's gift to CAP.  You're not.  In fact, right now you're being a huge thorn.

They are interested in learning how to do ES Operations, how to survive in the woods, etc.  Not because it's "fun", but because it's applicable to their lives.

The first comment is very true in many cases.  Second comment, not so much.  I've found most cadets do CAP ES because it's fun.  In fact, besides pilots looking to build flight time, most people do CAP ES because it's fun.  Applicable to their lives?  Please...

your training, AS A CADET, will determine your survival or your sudden demise.

(I'm tearing up after that one...rofl)

We put our cadets through "hell traning".  Why do we do this?  We do this so they are physically prepared, and definitely prepared mentally for any situation, REGARDLESS of age.

I think C/Maj Horn covered that pretty well.

After our training, cadets put seniors to shame, as they should.

Possibly, but with your attitude doubtful.

Seniors can stay in their vehicles while cadets perform acts of bravery and courage.  Cadets have been, and always will be leaders of ES.  This is not because of regulation, but of reality, and it's time to face it.  Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.  Cadet are ready, willing  and able bodies, ALL the time.

Bravery and courage?  To walk out to a hanger with the DF gear and say "It's coming from over there"?  If there is ever a courage factor to it as you exaggerate, there's probably a gross negligence of ORM.  If you were doing dangerous "brave" things, I would ground your ass and pull every rating the echelon commander would let me pull.  I think it's time YOU smelled the coffee.  Cadets I've encountered are prone to physical ailments as well.  Not as likely, but still likely.  BTW, if you really want to know the truth, cadets do the jobs that most SMs don't want to do.  It's not a matter of not being able to do the jobs, it's a matter of they don't want to do them.  It doesn't help the situation any when there are cocky cadets like you involved.
And as for leading the way, why don't you lead the way in leadership as you're supposed (read: required) to do anyway through the CP.  Start by being respectful, not arrogant.

The understand the danger, but do it for their community, state and nation.

*Raises arm* I'm saving the watch.  Most cadets don't understand the inherent danger involved with activities.  NHQ realizes this.  It's reflected by the fact that cadets are NEVER allowed at any CAP activity without SM supervision.

Cadets do ES, because you "Flyboys" are too scared and wimpy to walk through woods and see actual devastation face to face.  Cadets aren't afraid.  They know the danger, and accept it for what it is, because they believe in what's right.

We "Flyboys" are an integral part of CAP ES.  Here's the funny part:  We can do your job with a little extra training.  It's highly unlikely at your age that you can do ours.

As we go evermore into this generation, CAP is being tasked more and more with ES, HLS, etc.  The better we train our cadets to do these jobs, the more our nation will thrive from Civil Air Patrol's ES Capabilities, to keep them safe and protected, with cadets on the frontlines.

Ground ES hasn't expanded.  If anything, it's fewer and farther between due to better technology and accident avoidance.  The only ground HLS missions I'm aware of are taking pictures of bridges and factories.  Real heroic...  More like real boring, but nonetheless important to some government agency.

And it's C/2d Lt   ...so much for attention to detail and reading regs, huh?


[admin edit: fixed quote tags, I think]

[whatevah]

he claimed to be a C/Col in another thread... might want to look into that, as well?

[Cmdbuddy]

he claimed to be a C/Col in another thread... might want to look into that, as well?

It's a negative on that, as well.  Checked the Spaatz Master List, which was updated today.

[Five-seveN]

LOL! ok dude, all comms stuff is a Comms rating not ES, SET isnt a rating,

ok for the people that know nothing about ES and ratings.

                                    Lesson 1:
                              Rating Vs Quals

GTM 3,2,1- quals
GTL-qual
GBD-qual
and all of the kool things that u put above your CAP tape

OK so NOW we are all set on that.

ratings, i can say i have 5 rating test completes

ES Tech,Senior, Master
Comm, Tech and senior.


now you know thats Ratings and Quals are

thanks

[Pace]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Where's Master Guns when you need him?

[usafsf]

son, how long have you been in CAP? one year?...2 years?....

[whatevah]

Admin warning...

start getting your stories straight and your posts NOT spouting off stuff that doesn't jive with the regulations (and a few laws), or I'll have to lock this thread.

[Five-seveN]

LOl son? ok first im 20, 21 in 8 months.  try more like 5 years man thanks

[Five-seveN]

to the mods, sry for the attitude of my Lt, i will speek to him directly, and if there was any tone in my words, i apologize, not cuz there is a UNID warning floating around cuz its pointless to get kicked from a CAP Post.

thanks

[usafsf]

hmm so you completed all of the CAPP213 for the master rating of ES huh?...youv also attended the inland sar school by the USCG and AFRCC? and are currently the wing or region ESO? i doubt all of that

[Horn229]

Thanks for the reply!  Anxious to tear you apart now!  If you want to tear apart, don't read into it.  There wasn't ONLY 2 Cadets, there was about 25, and one senior in the back, and who wasn't GTL qualified, to satisfy requirements.  I was speaking from terms of those who were in charge on the mission, not the actual people.

If you say ES is optional to cadets, it is to Seniors as well.  Every program supports each other, they all relate in one way or another, including CP-ES.  Why is this?  Because CP can help cadets become responsible, learn values, integrity, etc, as needed on a mission.  No one ever said ES was required, it is optional, but cadets tend to do a better job at it.

Go re-read the CAPR 52-16 (the reg that governs the CADET PROGRAM) and you tell me where ES falls into the CP mission.

Seniors could say that, but if the cadet is qualified, they DO have every right to be there.  In in the case I'm talking about, the SM just drives.  Seniors think they rule the world, and they have all this power, in actuality, they don't.  That's why we have an IG.

pacemaker covered this.

I wasn't talking about missions on an everday basis.  I'm talking about cadets personal lives.  There are those who do outdoors activities, hunting, fishing, hiking, etc.  They LIKE ES, because the training they receive can help them in the everday "real world", whereas, AE, can't help them ever.

Let me guess, you are a Cadet, amybe Cadet turned Senior?  Have you ever been in the military?  Let me know if you have.  We don't haze our cadets, EVER.  What we do though, is prepare them for the challenges that lie ahead.  If they want to be a part of our ground team, they work at it.  It's not easy, we test and test, until they get it right perfectly, so they have less of a chance of making that mistake in the field.  We want cadets who are ready physically and mentally, not those who are "softies" and/or went to NESA.  We have stopped cadets from going to NESA, permanently.  In our squadron, we can do as we like, not take instruction from a push over such as yourself.

I wold much rather lead a GT of NESA grad's who know CAP ES, and know it well. Unlike you, NESA grad's don't walk away from the school acting all high and mighty. If you think my style (a CAP style) of ES is "soft" so be it, but this is a REAL CAP type of ES. This "we'll tromp through the woods for as long as it takes no matter what the cost may be to find the wreck" is incredibly unrealistic. Do the math, by the time a CAP GT is on the spot, the pilot will have been dead for hours, if not days.

I'll tell you what's courageous, risking our lives for other people, and our own team.  I have stories, but you seem to be too thickheaded to listen to our point of view.

If you are a real GTL you would NEVER EVER put your team in a situation where they would be risking their lives. I'm to thickheaded? No I'm not, I'm more than open to listening to you're point of view, just drop that high and mighty cocky attitude of yours and I will listen to whatever you have to say.

If you think I've crossed the line, fine.  Do you really think I care?  You opinion dosen't tell me what to do.

No, but you're losing point on your respect-o-meter every time you categorize Senior Members as Senior Citizens.

In conclusion, our squadron can take any squadron on in an ES FTX.  We have the most qualified people around, including those who commanded regional GSAR schools.  Before you think you're the best, and let me guess, you went to NESA?  If you did, it REALLY shows.  A bunch of "softies".  We're not here to argue, but show you, cadets are the backbone of ES, and SHOULD NOT be treated differently if they know there material, and are physically and mentally prepared.  We have that in our squadron, and we're PROUD!

I'd say you're full of it, but that's just me. If you really want to debate a NESA vs. Hawk thing, then start a new thread. But I will say this once more, no CAP school can prepare anyone for the sight of a dead body.

Oh, and I am a cadet, look at my signature beneath the post, and when you say "hell training" that sets off red flags for realistic people, to think Hazing/CPP violations.

[Pace]

LOL! ok dude, all comms stuff is a Comms rating not ES, SET isnt a rating,

That's "ok Sir" to you, Cadet.  You and your other buddy have stepped over the line with disrespect just a little too much today.

ok for the people that know nothing about ES and ratings.

...which from reading your post includes you.

                                    Lesson 1:
                              Rating Vs Quals

GTM 3,2,1- quals
GTL-qual
GBD-qual
and all of the kool things that u put above your CAP tape

OK so NOW we are all set on that.

ratings, i can say i have 5 rating test completes

ES Tech,Senior, Master
Comm, Tech and senior.


now you know thats Ratings and Quals are

thanks

Those ratings you're referring to are Senior Member Professional Development ratings.  Cadets cannot earn the ratings as a cadet.  You can meet the requirements and wear the badges for ES (Technician) and Comms (Tech, Senior, and Master).  Again, you can't actually earn the rating until you're a SM.  BTW, the only ES test for the PD rating is a correspondence test.  The Comms tests are on-line, but I just did a check and not only have you not taken all three, but you failed the two (Technician and Senior) tests you did take.

As for MRO and CUL, they are indeed ES ratings.  Check you're 101 card for a list of ratings.  Better yet, check the regulations that you keep saying you know so much better (CAPR 60-3, in case you need it).

Just stop now before you make the hole any deeper.

[Five-seveN]

Actly only seniors can only go the inland School, and i said i did the tests, Attention to detail Airman, remember cadets can take the tests, but the Other requirements cant be met by cadets,lol... i cant believe youd think a person that has been involved in SAR as long as my self wouldnt know that, thats basic stuff, any Noob would know what.

thanks

[usafsf]

you rock pacemaker *wink*

[whatevah]

as much as I'm wondering what a "UNID warning" is, I'm locking this thread. Sadly, Hawk Mtn grads are continuing the tradition of a serious attitude and superiority complex.  I know there are some cool grads (I know them), but people only remember the bad apples.

[Pylon]

I'd like to briefly add to the comments already made by our mod and admin team (who made an excellent effort to guide this legitimate discussion into being productive and civil).

CAPTalk has always prided itself on its ability to host wide ranging discussions, of interest to both cadets and seniors, while always maintaining a professional and courteous demeanor.  We can easily disagree with the viewpoints of others, and make counterpoints, without being disrespectful nor unprofessional.

CAPTalk will continue to do this, as well.  As members of Civil Air Patrol, we are professionals and we will act like professionals both in and out of uniform.  So far, I have seen a great deal of professionalism exhibited since we opened, with the exception of this one thread.  I won't have it again.  Thank you for playing.

...and thank you to the members of CAPTalk who have upheld our professional image.

[whatevah]

"CAPRANGER" sent a complaint about the post that 1st Lt Kieloch made...

If you only knew.....that professionalism it a two way street.  You make a fool out of CAP..NO internet forum is required to be professional and/or respectful...if there is, show me in the regs.

Sadly, he thinks that by requiring our posting members to be respectful, we are making "a fool out of CAP". It would seem that he has never read his leadership manuals, in which respect is frequently mentioned.  It would also appear that he has neglected to read our forum Membership Code of Conduct which also requires that our forum members show some respect for others and that a level of professionalism must be maintained.

[Cmdbuddy]

Does he not realize that when he reports a post about an admin, it is sent to both of the admins and all the mods?  Just a hint, don't complain to the person you're complaining about.

Lastly, if you don't like the admins' rules, leave.  It's their site, not yours.