The CAP Culture

[flyguy06]

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

Who gives a wooden Nickle to what the 'State Defense Forces' do (what do they do again? Also, wasn't there a a discussion here a few months ago to the effect of we should drop Height and Weight because the Air Force 'authorizes' SDF's to wear the uniform?")

You don't need to be thin and trim to look and feel professional. You need to be............be........professional. You need to be willing to put the hours in, the sweat, the tears, the blood, the ulcers in.

As I've said before, don't put other people down because you have a vision of what the organization should be.

We don't want to 'turn people away' because then we wont be able to preform the Air Force assigned mission ya'll are so keen on preforming.

I'm a full time student  at a University, I'm part time at my EMS Academy for an advance EMT class, I work a full time and part time job (which is why I haven't been active in CAP of late) and I'm about twenty pounds over weight. If you prefer, when you're having a heart attack, you can weight for the thin movie poster crew to get there in pressed shirts with clean gear rather then overweight me in a pressed shirt and clean gear.

This is a classic example of CAP culture...........you're more worried about the guys looking good then what they can accomplish.

Iwasnt trying to go off in a conversation about ht and wt. Apparently I have wounded some folks so I am sorry. But the point wasnt abou tht and wt. That was an example. the point was about standards. Either you meet them or you dont. If I dont pass my fire arms qualification, guess what I cant be a cop anymore no matter how fit I am or how good I am at my job. I realize there are a lot of technically qulified folks in CAP. But its an all encompassing program. You cant say "well, we meet some of the standards so that ok." We cant say just because we dont like this particular standard its ok to overlook it.

What if I took a student pilot and trained him. He does stalls, slow flight, turns around a piont beautifuly He lands like a pro, but he cant to Soft field landings which is a standard. DO I say wel he does 90% of the standrads right so i wil just pass him anyway? Is that the attitude I should take?


Again, this isnt about weight or height. its about an image. a standard. If we are to be taken seriously we need to enforce our standards and look like we want to be taken seriously or else The Air Force will continue to look at us like a joke

[Chappie]

That is correct....the CSU is not an option.  Here is reasoning behind it:

1)  Unlike other members of CAP, chaplains wear the very same rating insignia as do the USAF active and reserve chaplains -- that is the emblem of their faith group.  In their role as a "force multiplier" with the military, Chaplains are not to wear the CSU.  Those serving as a "force multiplier" must meet certain criteria set forth by the USAF Chief of the Chaplain Corps: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf;

2)  While the CAP culture is great appreciated and embraced, at the same time the PCR Chaplain Corps is conducting its Staff College on an active USAF base.  We want to be gracious guests and fit into their culture (i.e. no ribbons on the short sleeve shirt -- strictly adhering to the  Customs and Courtesies -- wearing the USAF style uniform properly, etc.) and since the CSU is the "corporate uniform" it does have some close similarities to the USAF style that might raise some eyebrows from the real military types.  So the blazer combo and the white aviator/gray slacks-skirt uniform is the civilian uniform of choice.  Other Region Chaplain Corps may conduct their staff college at a conference/retreat center where the CSU could be worn (I have no problem with that) or may allow the CSU to be worn on an active military (there isn't a "set" policy on this), but it is something that the PCR Chaplain Corps has "traditionally" adopted/done as an act of respect to those who wear the uniform that we often interact with and encourages a more professional look.

My personal .002 in response to Riveraux's observations regarding the golf shirt/slacks at a Professional Development event:  leave that in your closet or wear the polo/golf shirt after hours or for traveling to and from the event.
But for SLS/CLC/UCC/RSC  these are "professional" development classes -- look the part by wearing the USAF-Style uniform, the Corporate Style Uniform, or the white aviator shirt/gray slacks-skirt or blazer combo....the event is held where we are in the eyes of others.   A uniform makes a statement.  

Chappie,
The link you posted is broken.  I was hoping to read it as I was confused by the force multiplier comment.  Are you saying that only those who meet certain standards can do this?  I have met a lot of chaplans who wear the CSU and actually I believe the first person I saw wearing the CSU was a chaplain.  

I also had a question on your statement about how chaplains wearing the CSU will raise some eye brows from those in the military.  I think that is the case for any CAP uniform where the member has never been exposed to CAP before.  The grey shoulder boards get interesting looks on the blues uniform.  I think it is an opportunity have a conversation about what CAP is along with the Chaplain core is.  Now I have never worn the CSU and I agree that we have a lot of uniforms, but it seems strange to limit the wear of a specific uniform when it fits the professional develop level of the school.

Unfortunately, the link picked up the semi-colon.  Try this:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Support_Guidelines_8674B4A14F5A7.pdf

And if that link doesn't work, here is the text:   Military Support Guidelines for CAP Chaplains

When CAP Chaplains are called upon to perform military support on a military base, or in performance of duties requested by active duty, guard or reserve units (i.e. military funerals, chapel support, etc), follow the procedures below.  NOTE:  The Air Force Chaplain Service requirements for supporting chapel programs on AF bases are meeting the requirements of AFI 52-101,2.3,1:;AFI 52-102 and DoD Directive 1304:19.  This means: CAP Chaplains must hold an earned baccalaureate and seminary degree from accredited institutions and these credentials must be on file along with their ecclesiastical endorsement in the office of the base Wing Chaplain.  These credentials should be readily available and ideally on file at the AF chapel office BEFORE being requested for support.

1. A written request or invitation must be received from the requesting party on official stationary that will be copied to the CAP Wing Commander and Wing Chaplain.  Approval must be first given at the CAP wing level before accepting and performing the request.

2. The CAP Wing Commander and Chaplain will validate and concur on eligibility to serve and wear the Air Force style uniform if that uniform is required for the duty.  (CAP personnel must meet Air Force standards to wear the Air Force style uniform at any time.)

3. The CAP Wing Commander will request an MSA (Military Support Authorization) issued by the State Director.  This authorization serves as the Chaplain Service personnel's orders allowing for billeting and limited base services.

4. Authorization to perform duties does not place any liability upon the host organization.  CAP members acting in official capacity are covered under CAP liability.

5. Under no circumstances should anyone proceed directly to support activities on military bases without proper CAP command authorization and the issuing of a MSA.

6. Upon completion of duty, an after-action report should be written describing everything that was done, noting strengths, weaknesses, and recommendations for future reference.  Copies should go to the CAP Wing Commander, CAP Wing Chaplain, the supervising Military Chaplain and the Chief of Chaplain Service, Civil Air Patrol.

* * * * * *

Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.   However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

While attending a course at the Chaplain Service Institute with members of the active/reserve components of the USAF Chaplain Corps, the gray epaulets were certainly different than the blue -- but the rest of the uniform certainly matched -- and it didn't hurt to have the USAF Chief of Chaplains explain to the class who those CAP-types were and that we were part of their operations

There are many PD schools that are held and I am in total agreement with the observations that RiverAux made concerning the golf/polo shirt.  We should wear a more formal uniform when attending those events be it the USAF-style, CSU, Blazer Combo or White aviator/gray slacks/skirt.   Keep the standard of uniform wear established for National Staff College.  

My comments regarding the wearing only the USAF uniform were specific only to the one event -- PCR Chaplain Corps Service College.  It is one way we are endeavoring to build upon our existing relationship with the USAF Chaplain Corps since our meetings are held in the Chapel Centers.   

[Eclipse]

Since I rejoined as a senior member officer

Actually, its always been senior member, "officer" was rightly flushed last year.
(I'm updating SIMS and just noticed its all over there and needs to be corrected)

[Eclipse]

Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.  However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

Two issues - first, very few of our Chaplains ever perform any service to other military services.

Second, if you are interpreting the regs above to say that only one specific uniform combination is approved for wear by CAP Chaplains in performance of their "force multiplier" role, that's simply an incorrect interpretation.

As MSA is a very simple document that contains names authorized for base access, there are certainly no mention of approved or preferred uniforms in any MSA I've ever seen, nor mention of same in any of the chaplain-related regulations, nor does the text above.

[Chappie]

Certainly there are chaplains who wear the CPU.  However, what I was hopefully addressing is when a chaplain is serving in the role of a "force multiplier" for branches of the military services.  There is a certain criteria that a CAP Chaplain must meet to participate in that particular assignment.   There are many CAP Chaplains (myself included) that for one reason or another don't meet the Military Support Guidelines.

Two issues - first, very few of our Chaplains ever perform any service to other military services.

Second, if you are interpreting the regs above to say that only one specific uniform combination is approved for wear by CAP Chaplains in performance of their "force multiplier" role, that's simply an incorrect interpretation.

As MSA is a very simple document that contains names authorized for base access, there are certainly no mention of approved or preferred uniforms in any MSA I've ever seen, nor mention of same in any of the chaplain-related regulations, nor does the text above.

Not bad for just a few Chaplains

"FORCE MULTIPLIERS" TO USAF 2008

Participated in 521 activities/events
Hours involved: 2152
Miles traveled:  23,464
Money invested: $5,150.78

"FORCE MULTIPLIERS" TO OTHER BRANCHES 2008

Participated in 479 activities/events
Hours involved: 657
Miles traveled:  14,791
Money invested: $5,561.64

(Information from the Jan-Jun Jul-Dec 2008     Form 34As)

The reference is not to the MSA (Military Support Authorization).  It is to a Chaplain Corps policy called "Military Support Guidelines" - part of the MOU between the USAF Chaplain Corps and the CAP Chaplain Corps.  They are our customer.

[Eclipse]

The value of the service provided isn't connected to the uniform worn, unless you have statistics that show all the times our Chaplains were turned away at the gate because the guards were "confused" by our uniforms.

Perhaps PCR is flush with personnel and can afford to alienate members based on a subjective evaluation that one of our uniforms is in appropriate.  My personal understanding is that most regions and wings are not in that position and would be happy to have more clergy participate regardless of which uniform they choose (assuming they wear it correctly and look sharp).

[RRLE]

Give a hand salute to officers of the Armed Forces more "senior" or equal (based on the number of stripes or metal rank insignia) to them.

The quote above (from an earlier post) about USCG Aux saluting is not correct. All Auxies salutes all officers of all services regardless of respective rank and office. That means the 3 star National Commodore of the USCG Aux salutes the newest minted Ensign or CWO.  Some don't like that and have tried to change it over the years but the reg remains.

The real quote from the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan) is 1.A.5.a. Saluting

Auxiliarists, when out of doors, in uniform and covered, should:
• As a courtesy, initiate, or return a hand salute to commissioned officers.

Notice that the words "more senior" do not appear in the manual. All Auxies salute all military officers.

[MIKE]

But it also says "initiate, or return" which implies the same thing... Otherwise it would say: initiate a hand salute to commissioned officers.

Back to topic.

[Chappie]

1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.

Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

In a week from now, the PCR Chaplain Corps will conduct their Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at McChord AFB.  The only authorized uniforms for the school are the  basic USAF style uniform and the white aviator/gray slacks or shirt for the classroom sessions and the Full-service USAF style uniform and the Blazer Combo for the concluding luncheon.  Customs and courtesies will be used (in fact, part of the registration packet was the inclusion of the CAPP 151) and there will be an uniform inspection conducted on the first day of classes.  It's called "professionalism" and following the Core Value of excellence.

Holy cow!  The chaplains are leading the way.  The line officers around them should be embarrassed.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and affirmation.

[Chappie]

1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.

Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 

Didn't mean for the thread to get hijacked...but was trying to enforce Riveraux's observation here in this post.   Just pointing out that at a Region Level Professional Development event -- i.e. school (not a training exercise or workshop) -- a standard for uniform wear has been established that will reflect professionalism -- which should be a source of pride for all who participate and bring a measure of pride to the organization.  He implored us to work at it and set the example...exactly what our efforts are endeavoring to do.

[SarDragon]

But in your mind my combined 10 years experience, the PD I've both taken and taught, and ES ratings up to IC2 should be flushed?

That's ok, he feels the same about me since I put on 15 lbs since retiring.  Active duty I was measured using body fat, now it is a flat ht/wt number.  I didn't meet the Ht/Wt number when I had 17% body fat!

OTOH, I still meet ht/wt standards, but do not pass for body fat. I retired from the Navy almost 20 yrs ago.

I'm not allowed to wear the AF-style uniforms because of my beard.

[JayT]

And I think it shouldnt be an option that members that do meet ht & wt wear the military style uniform I know that sounds drastic and seemike its singling out our overweight members, but this is an organization and we have to have standards, Point blank. We worry so much about not "offending" people that we lower our standatrds and that affects the organization as a whole.

And actually, I think we need to increase our ht & wt standards.The SDF has a ht & wt standard. Why dont we? Becaue we dont want to be "mean" and turn people away? I understand that we have a lot of members that dont meet ht & wt that are very smart and make a great impact on CAP. but again, we have to have standards thatare going make the organization as a whole look and feel professional.

Who gives a wooden Nickle to what the 'State Defense Forces' do (what do they do again? Also, wasn't there a a discussion here a few months ago to the effect of we should drop Height and Weight because the Air Force 'authorizes' SDF's to wear the uniform?")

You don't need to be thin and trim to look and feel professional. You need to be............be........professional. You need to be willing to put the hours in, the sweat, the tears, the blood, the ulcers in.

As I've said before, don't put other people down because you have a vision of what the organization should be.

We don't want to 'turn people away' because then we wont be able to preform the Air Force assigned mission ya'll are so keen on preforming.

I'm a full time student  at a University, I'm part time at my EMS Academy for an advance EMT class, I work a full time and part time job (which is why I haven't been active in CAP of late) and I'm about twenty pounds over weight. If you prefer, when you're having a heart attack, you can weight for the thin movie poster crew to get there in pressed shirts with clean gear rather then overweight me in a pressed shirt and clean gear.

This is a classic example of CAP culture...........you're more worried about the guys looking good then what they can accomplish.

Iwasnt trying to go off in a conversation about ht and wt. Apparently I have wounded some folks so I am sorry. But the point wasnt abou tht and wt. That was an example. the point was about standards. Either you meet them or you dont. If I dont pass my fire arms qualification, guess what I cant be a cop anymore no matter how fit I am or how good I am at my job. I realize there are a lot of technically qulified folks in CAP. But its an all encompassing program. You cant say "well, we meet some of the standards so that ok." We cant say just because we dont like this particular standard its ok to overlook it.

What if I took a student pilot and trained him. He does stalls, slow flight, turns around a piont beautifuly He lands like a pro, but he cant to Soft field landings which is a standard. DO I say wel he does 90% of the standrads right so i wil just pass him anyway? Is that the attitude I should take?


Again, this isnt about weight or height. its about an image. a standard. If we are to be taken seriously we need to enforce our standards and look like we want to be taken seriously or else The Air Force will continue to look at us like a joke

It's attitudes like yours concerning appereance that will continue to a cause the people to 'look at us like a joke.'

You're comparing apples to watermelons here, and it's esepcially funny that you're harping on people for 'not meeting the standards' when your posts are nearly unreadable.

CAP is not a flight school, it's not a police academy, it's not a combat service. Tens of millions of people in this country recieve fire and EMS department coverage from unpaid unvolunteers who show up in tee shirts and jeans.

And also, we have standards that we meet. If someone doesn't meant one set, they wear a different uniform. If they're not wearing that uniform correctly, then they should be corrected. If you show up with a suede jacket over your blues, you should be corrected, despite the fact you're apparently thin and clean shaven.

[Slim]

Time to wrestle with the pig a little.....

Since the topic of the thread is "The CAP Culture," and has once again denigrated into a uniform, us vs them, hard-core military vs fat n fuzzy discussion, let's remember the people who started our culture, and those who continue that history.

CAP's charter members were people who couldn't serve and wanted to do something to support the war effort.  That's right, the people who were too old or too young.  People who couldn't be drafted (war essential industries), and the 4Fs who couldn't pass the physical.  Our forefathers served honorably during the war years, and performed essential duties like coastal and border patrol, courier flights, SAR, target towing, and started a cadet program to introduce and prepare the youth of that time to military service and aviation.

Who are our members today?  People who couldn't serve for a variety of reasons (age, weight, medical, or just plain old didn't want to put it all on the line for a term of enlistment).  CAP is an organization of people who have a desire to serve their country, in some way.  Whether that's flying SAR missions, ground team, teaching aerospace, or running the cadet program and providing a positive experience for the youth of this country.

Sure, there are a wealth of members who have served, or are presently serving, folks like PHall, Stonewall, Nin, and Flyguy06.  And we  need members like them just as badly as we need the guy who weighs close to 300 pounds, yet shows up every week in his CSU or BBDUs and spends most of the meeting trying to keep on top of the duties associated with the four or five jobs he holds down in the squadron.

I'm one of those people who couldn't serve (medical reasons), so CAP has been it for me (that and a few years in the CGAux).  I enjoy the camaraderie of working with dedicated, like-minded people.  I enjoy seeing the dawn of realization break over some cadet's face when they "Get it."  I enjoy the satisfaction of busting my tail doing something, and seeing it come to a successful conclusion.  I work in a squadron where corporate uniforms (including golf shirts unfortunately) outnumber AF uniforms among senior members.  I put in the time to maintain my uniforms to standard, keep my grooming within the regulations, and set the standards that should be appropriate for both uniforms.  My commander expects the same thing out of everyone in the unit.

Don't tell me that my 25 years of service to CAP, master rating in CP, my ES qualifications (when I had time to maintain them) and participation, or sitting in the corner busting my butt to stay on top of five different staff jobs mean less because I'm that guy who weighs close to 300 pounds.

[Eclipse]

To paraphrase John Winger:

Cut it out! Cut it out! Cut it out! The hell's the matter with you? Stupid! We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more lovable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end?

Nobody cried when Old Yeller got shot? I'm sure.

I cried my eyes out. So we're all dogfaces, we're all very, very different, but there is one thing that we all have in common: we were all stupid enough to join CAP. We're mutants. There's something wrong with us, something very, very wrong with us. Something seriously wrong with us - we're volunteers!

[Climbnsink]

We need to be more professional, but what about this theory:
No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection.  No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.


Seriously go search GA message boards for CAP opinions, the negative ones mostly have to do with CAPers dressed up in full bling doing things that they have absolutely no authority to do.   Nothing unprofessional about a golf shirt or not saluting another CAP member, but dress nice and overstep your bounds with the general public and you've done far more damage to CAP than a nonmilitary uniform ever will.

[JayT]

Do you have any links?

[RiverAux]

We need to be more professional, but what about this theory:
No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection.  No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.


Seriously go search GA message boards for CAP opinions, the negative ones mostly have to do with CAPers dressed up in full bling doing things that they have absolutely no authority to do.   Nothing unprofessional about a golf shirt or not saluting another CAP member, but dress nice and overstep your bounds with the general public and you've done far more damage to CAP than a nonmilitary uniform ever will.

I'd say there are probably plenty of units that didn't pass inspection that were not combat ready as well.   

Wearing golf shirts doesn't mean that you can't be a jerk just like wearing a uniform doesn't mean that you're a bling hungry jerk. 

[flyguy06]

I just want to go on record to say that I NEVER suggesyed getting rid of our overweight members. What I said was we should two service uniforms.The Air Force one for those that meet the ht and wt and the White shirt/bkue pants one for those that do not meet the ht and wt standard. I think that if you do meet ht and wt you should be required toonly wear the AF uniform and if you do not then you should only be required to waer the other one. Its just a suggestion.

[JayT]

I just want to go on record to say that I NEVER suggesyed getting rid of our overweight members. What I said was we should two service uniforms.The Air Force one for those that meet the ht and wt and the White shirt/bkue pants one for those that do not meet the ht and wt standard. I think that if you do meet ht and wt you should be required toonly wear the AF uniform and if you do not then you should only be required to waer the other one. Its just a suggestion.

Where did you say that?

[JAFO78]

CAPTalk home of the forum drifters.  :clap:

Start on any topic and sooner or later we talk about something else.