JROTC and ROTC Medals...

[Ozzy]

Well I was wondering on the wear of full-sized medals on the USAF Service Dress Coat. Specifically if you could wear medals awarded while in J/ROTC. CAPR 39-3 allows for wear of up to three JROTC and ROTC ribbons but it doesn't mention wear of medals awarded while in J/ROTC and CAPM 39-1 Prohibits wear of Miniature Medals on USAF Service Dress coat. But it doesn't say anything about full sized medals, whether awarded by J/ROTC or the Real Military.

[Eagle400]

No. 

That is verboten, and your detachment cadre should know better than to allow full size medals (or any for that matter) on the Air Force service dress coat.  Shame on them!

Now, you can wear up to 3 ROTC/JROTC ribbons of your choice on the service dress coat.  All ROTC/JROTC ribbons are worn below CAP ribbons and in their correct order of precedence as they are worn in ROTC/JROTC.  Note: ROTC/JROTC ribbons may only be worn when the member concerned is enrolled in ROTC/JROTC. 

Unfortunately, ROTC/JROTC badges are not allowed (in case you were wondering).  For more info, check CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual.

I hope this helps. 

[DNall]

Note: ROTC/JROTC ribbons may only be worn when the member concerned is enrolled in ROTC/JROTC.

Just to reinforce this. Only allowed while currently enrolled in the program. So, it's not possible to wear both JROTC & ROTC ribbons, it'd be the one you're currently in, and they go away when you're no longer int eh program.

[JayT]

Well I was wondering on the wear of full-sized medals on the USAF Service Dress Coat. Specifically if you could wear medals awarded while in J/ROTC. CAPR 39-3 allows for wear of up to three JROTC and ROTC ribbons but it doesn't mention wear of medals awarded while in J/ROTC and CAPM 39-1 Prohibits wear of Miniature Medals on USAF Service Dress coat. But it doesn't say anything about full sized medals, whether awarded by J/ROTC or the Real Military.

Fulled sized medals are never worn on the AF style service dress.

And when you graduate the program.........the ribbons come off....

[Hawk200]

.... but it doesn't mention wear of medals awarded while in J/ROTC and CAPM 39-1 Prohibits wear of Miniature Medals on USAF Service Dress coat. But it doesn't say anything about full sized medals, whether awarded by J/ROTC or the Real Military.

Manuals are written to be inclusive. Meaning that it tells you what is permitted to wear, not what isn't. If it doesn't say you can, you can't.

It doesn't say anything about wearing medals, especially full size medals, because they aren't permitted for wear.

[Ozzy]

Well I was just wondering as a cadet brought it up to me during the NYWg Conference and we were going to bring it up during the wing CAC meeting, asking to get a clarification into 39-1 or 39-3, but as I didn't go to the meeting and the other cadet forgot, we have to wait until next CAC meeting to bring it up. But correct me if I'm wrong, but CAP does have three full sized medals (CAPMEDALS); the Silver Medal of Valor, the Bronze Medal of Valor, and the Distinguished Service Medal.

[Pylon]

Well I was just wondering as a cadet brought it up to me during the NYWg Conference and we were going to bring it up during the wing CAC meeting, asking to get a clarification into 39-1 or 39-3, but as I didn't go to the meeting and the other cadet forgot, we have to wait until next CAC meeting to bring it up. But correct me if I'm wrong, but CAP does have three full sized medals (CAPMEDALS); the Silver Medal of Valor, the Bronze Medal of Valor, and the Distinguished Service Medal.

There's no clarification needed.  CAPM 39-1 is clear.  CAPR 39-3, by the way, has no bearing on your question. CAPR 39-3 determines the eligibility to award medals, ribbons and certificates and how that process works.  Wear of those awards, once earned and documented in accordance with CAPR 39-3, is strictly the domain of CAPM 39-1 as defined in its Para 1-1.

1)  Full size medals do exist for several awards.  These are for presentation purposes.  The Air Force gives its members full size medals, too.  But they don't wear them either.  They are good for your "I love me" display or a nice shadowbox.

Sometimes when awarding somebody a high-level medal, the medal will be clipped to their uniform during the presentation.  This is a general practice in CAP and the Armed Forces.  Right after the ceremony and photos, the medal is removed from the uniform.

2) Miniature medals exist for most of CAP's awards and decorations, however these are only worn on the CAP Mess Dress uniform and the Semi-Formal blazer combination.  Cadets are not authorized to wear either of these uniform combinations, therefore, cadets cannot wear the miniature medals.

3) Cadets are authorized to wear ribbons.  Earn a medal, put on the ribbon.

4) That's not the purpose of the CAC.  Re-read the pamphlet to determine what your purpose is.

[Eagle400]

2) Miniature medals exist for most of CAP's awards and decorations, however these are only worn on the CAP Mess Dress uniform and the Semi-Formal blazer combination.  Cadets are not authorized to wear either of these uniform combinations, therefore, cadets cannot wear the miniature medals.

Reg cite regarding cadet wear of the blazer uniform, please.

[JayT]

Cadets are authorized for the blazer combination.

Ozzy and I were in the same JROTC unit back in high school, and the wear of full sized medals was not only allowed, but actively encouraged by the cadre in all combinations.

[Eagle400]

Cadets are authorized for the blazer combination.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Ozzy and I were in the same JROTC unit back in high school, and the wear of full sized medals was not only allowed, but actively encouraged by the cadre in all combinations.

Interesting.  Please show me in AFI 36-2903 and AFOATSI 36-2001 where it says that medals are allowed for any uniform other than the mess dress, honor guard, and band uniforms.

[Timothy]

AFOATSI 36-2001
http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afoatsi36-2001.pdf

"5.1.2. Except as authorized in this instruction, AFJROTC cadets will wear the standard service uniform prescribed for active duty personnel in AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel..."

"5.3.4.4. Medals and ribbons may be worn simultaneously for formal, semiformal, special occasions of a limited nature. The routine wear of medals and ribbons is prohibited."

Agreed that its not kosher for CAP. Since AFOATS only authorize wear of the standard service dress, 5.3.4.4 is pretty clear on allowing medals for cadet servcice dress in certain occasions. It makes sense, otherwise they could never wear any of the National Award medals if they earn one... so they cut the kids some slack.

In college ROTC cadets can get mess dress, and as such are not allowed to wear any medals on service dress.

[Eagle400]

AFOATSI 36-2001
http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afoatsi36-2001.pdf

5.3.4.4. Medals and ribbons may be worn simultaneously for formal, semiformal, special occasions of a limited nature. The routine wear of medals and ribbons is prohibited.

Bingo!  Common sense would dictate:

"limited nature" = only when awarded

"routine wear" = any other time

I would have thought an Air Force reg would be more specific; the "vague reg syndrome" is more common in CAP.

[Timothy]

Hmm... possibly. But again I think they made a common sense exception to allow the cadets to wear the medals earned since they dont have access to mess dress.

We wore our medals to:
Military Ball
Dining In
Awards Ceremonies
Group Change of Command Ceremonies (school cadet commander)

Sometimes of course the last 2 items would occur during the Dining In, but you understand... a very limited amount. Some schools wear them much more often.

I just remembered what the actual topic of this thread was... I'll shut up now.

[Hawk200]

AFOATSI 36-2001
http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afoatsi36-2001.pdf

5.3.4.4. Medals and ribbons may be worn simultaneously for formal, semiformal, special occasions of a limited nature. The routine wear of medals and ribbons is prohibited.

Bingo!  Common sense would dictate:

"limited nature" = only when awarded

"routine wear" = any other time

I would have thought an Air Force reg would be more specific; the "vague reg syndrome" is more common in CAP.

Problem is that "common sense" doesn't dictate, the reg does. There are a lot of circumstances where people apply their own "common sense" and don't think to reference the pub for guidance. Not being of the AFROTC organization, our intrepretation is not valid.

Overall, it's not a concern to us anyway. CAP does not permit the wear of medals on service dress, only Mess. AFROTC is a completely separate organization, with a completely different mission. We don't have any place applying our thoughts on the matter.

Apologies if this sounds harsh, it's not intended to, only pointing out the reality of the situation.

[JayT]

Cadets are authorized for the blazer combination.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Ozzy and I were in the same JROTC unit back in high school, and the wear of full sized medals was not only allowed, but actively encouraged by the cadre in all combinations.

Interesting.  Please show me in AFI 36-2903 and AFOATSI 36-2001 where it says that medals are allowed for any uniform other than the mess dress, honor guard, and band uniforms.

'ight. Next time I'm a member of an AFJROTC detachment, I'll let the the cadre know.

Notice I didn't say I did it.

Joseph Themann
Stony Brook University

[Eagle400]

Notice I didn't say I did it.

I didn't say or imply you did. 

[JayT]

Notice I didn't say I did it.

I didn't say or imply you did. 

Indeed!

[Ozzy]

4) That's not the purpose of the CAC.  Re-read the pamphlet to determine what your purpose is.

Well Sir I have, and as I was told by the Wing Senior CAC Adviser to bring it up during the meeting. And for everyone's benefit, heres CAPP 52-19

As defined by the Cadet Advisory Council’s governing regulation,
CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management, CACs have three main
purposes:
1. “Provide an organization where cadets gain leadership
experience at higher organizational levels.”
In their home squadron, a cadet’s leadership experience is
limited to local concerns and is mostly tactical in nature. CAC
service is an opportunity for cadet officers to develop a more
extensive approach to problem solving and a broader perspective
on CAP issues. By influencing decisions that affect multiple
squadrons, wings, or CAP as a whole, cadets are introduced to the
strategic arena of leadership, and develop long-term goal-setting
and indirect leadership skills.
2. “Aid the commander in monitoring and implementing the Cadet
Program.”
The CAC provides a venue where the unit commander may
gain a thoughtful perspective, representative of the Cadet Corps,
on matters involving cadets. CACs work for their echelon
commander; therefore, senior leaders may task councils with
examining cadet-related topics of interest to the commander.
Conversely, the CAC is also a cadet forum where cadets may
discuss their CAP experiences, work together toward mutual
goals, and use their collective insight to help the commander
gauge the effectiveness of the local Cadet Program.
3. “Make recommendations for improving and running the Cadet
Program.”
As an advisory body, the CAC affords cadet officers
opportunities to assist the echelon commander in leading the
Cadet Corps. CAC representatives examine cadet-related issues,
develop a consensus, craft well-reasoned recommendations in
writing, and forward them to their commander for his or her
consideration. CAC service is a great way for cadets to enhance
their oral and written communication skills. And while the CAC
has no authority to implement policy, when its members speak
persuasively and in unison, the council can influence senior
leaders and help improve the Cadet Program and CAP.

Interested portions bolded

[jb512]

AFOATSI 36-2001
http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afoatsi36-2001.pdf

5.3.4.4. Medals and ribbons may be worn simultaneously for formal, semiformal, special occasions of a limited nature. The routine wear of medals and ribbons is prohibited.

Bingo!  Common sense would dictate:

"limited nature" = only when awarded

"routine wear" = any other time

I would have thought an Air Force reg would be more specific; the "vague reg syndrome" is more common in CAP.

You're interpreting it to be exclusive rather than inclusive.  The reg states that the medals may be worn for formal and semiformal and special occasions of a limited nature.  When I was a JROTC cadet years ago we wore our regular sized medals on the pocket flap below our ribbons for the military ball and other formal events and were authorized to do so the same as the cadets are now.  A formal event is not routine wear.

You learn a lot about the meaning of commas, semicolons, and other punctuation in the "letter of the law", so to speak, when you take cop courses to interpret penal, traffic, and other codes... 

[JayT]

4) That's not the purpose of the CAC.  Re-read the pamphlet to determine what your purpose is.

Well Sir I have, and as I was told by the Wing Senior CAC Adviser to bring it up during the meeting. And for everyone's benefit, heres CAPP 52-19

As defined by the Cadet Advisory Council's governing regulation,
CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management, CACs have three main
purposes:
1. "Provide an organization where cadets gain leadership
experience at higher organizational levels."
In their home squadron, a cadet's leadership experience is
limited to local concerns and is mostly tactical in nature. CAC
service is an opportunity for cadet officers to develop a more
extensive approach to problem solving and a broader perspective
on CAP issues. By influencing decisions that affect multiple
squadrons, wings, or CAP as a whole, cadets are introduced to the
strategic arena of leadership, and develop long-term goal-setting
and indirect leadership skills.
2. "Aid the commander in monitoring and implementing the Cadet
Program."
The CAC provides a venue where the unit commander may
gain a thoughtful perspective, representative of the Cadet Corps,
on matters involving cadets. CACs work for their echelon
commander; therefore, senior leaders may task councils with
examining cadet-related topics of interest to the commander.
Conversely, the CAC is also a cadet forum where cadets may
discuss their CAP experiences, work together toward mutual
goals, and use their collective insight to help the commander
gauge the effectiveness of the local Cadet Program.
3. "Make recommendations for improving and running the Cadet
Program."
As an advisory body, the CAC affords cadet officers
opportunities to assist the echelon commander in leading the
Cadet Corps. CAC representatives examine cadet-related issues,
develop a consensus, craft well-reasoned recommendations in
writing, and forward them to their commander for his or her
consideration. CAC service is a great way for cadets to enhance
their oral and written communication skills. And while the CAC
has no authority to implement policy, when its members speak
persuasively and in unison, the council can influence senior
leaders and help improve the Cadet Program and CAP.

Interested portions bolded

None of those things have to do with this topic..........