Developing and Maintaining Discipline as part of the normal routine...

[Eclipse]

Its also interesting that many people believe "discipline" = "military C&C".

Discipline is your general demeanor, attention to detail, and the seriousness with which you accept responsibilities and tasks in Cap.

C&C is a part of that, but really the smallest - more a symptomatic indicator of attitude.

In most cases commanders will not make an issue of the occasional slip or miscue from members who are otherwise fully engaged and are considered assets to the program, whereas minor C&C mistakes
become further irritants from members who think they can walk on water without doing any of the homework.

[flyguy06]

I agree with hhe above. Many people believe its either "have fun" of "be military". Well, being military can be fun.

You are right though in that many squadrons interpret things differently. I think you find that in many corporations including the military as well. If I work for Coca Cola. The office in Atlanta will no doubt be run differently thanthe office in Las Vegas.

[ZigZag911]

Atlanta Coca Cola & their Las Vegas office will not, in fact, be identical...however, they will have close similarities within certain parameters.

CAP has a sort of localized schizophrenia.....while local squadrons need not be identical, they ought to fall within common bounds...the problem is, what hose limits are has not been clearly defined at the top!

[SAR-EMT1]

I look at the TV show MASH as a perfect example of what we should be.    - I kidd-

[Walkman]

A little late to the party, but...

In my SQDN, the cadets show a fairly good balance on the "hitting the wall" thing. What's more interesting to me is the difference in the cadets themselves. The two cadets with the most time & grade in are more soft spoken. They aren't lax in the "s'up" way. But they command respect without yelling. We have two newer element leaders who are very loud. It seems that they are really going for the DI feel. The others are on a sliding scale. The longer they've been in CAP, the less Gunny Hartman they are.

Our CC is AD USAF. He sets the tone well with C&C I think. Balanced.

[Flying Pig]

I was a cadet "advisor" to a Sq that had just formed.  I was the Cadet Commander at my Sq and was asked to come a couple nights a month to assist the new cadet staff.  I was a C/2Lt and the staff at the newly formed unit were C/SSgt and below with very new Senior parents who really seemed to "enjoy" this type of meeting.

All of the cadet staff had just returned from basic encampement and you could definitely tell from the meeting nights.  Everyone walking around yelling, cadets "bracing" themselves as it was called then (hitting the wall).  Cadets screaming "By your leave Sir" in my ear everytime the walked past me.  Every class cadets with questions had to raise their hand and yell "Sir permission to speak."  Siiiigh....It was very tiring.

Then my unit, very quiet, sure you had the motivated 1st Sgt every now and then, cadets holding doors for seniors and cadet staff, polite to other parents who were not members.   You had a question, raise your hand and wait to be called on.  Both units were disciplined cadets, but having been part of both, Id have to say the cadets in my unit got a much more well rounded approach to discipline that could take them outside of the military, but one that would be perfectly adaptable in the military as well.  If you take the younger Sq's method.  Thats only applicable in that CAP unit.  The military doesn't do any of that.  8 years in the infanty I was never required to, nor did I ever see anyone yelling "By your leave" or "hitting the wall." 

Sure, encampment can have those types of things, rite of passage, extreme types of things make it fun.  But at the Sq level, it gets old real quick.  Marine boot camp is that same way.  You always refer to yourself in the 3rd person.  "Sir, recruit Steht requests permission to speak."  ...."Sir Recruit Steht needs to fill his canteen."  But the day you graduate its over.  If the military tried to operate like that it wouldnt ever get anything done.  Same way with CAP.  it seems to make the meeting nights a mess of people yelling and more worried about saying the right thing than just being courteous and enjoying the night.

[flyguy06]

Hitting the wal is rediculous and they dont even do it in the military. Even military Academies have stopped the procatice. Now when I went to military college we did do that. But this is a different time.

With that said, I think some strict dicsipline measures should be in place. And I think cadets need to understand their place in CAP.

A few years ago, I ws a TAC officer at a Region Encampment. I was a Senior Member 1st Lt. The Cadet Commander was under the impression that she was "my" superior. She would attempt to give me orders and tell me what to do with the Flight in my chrge. When I would suggect something, she told me she wasnt going to do it. Thats when the "military" in me came out and we had a heart to heart. She got mad with me and told the Encampment Commander that I hollard at her. I told him, that I am an adult here on my own time . I am here to train cadets not have cadets trainme.

A lot of cadets, especially Senior cadets have this idea that they ar ein charge. My feeling is they are "cadets". The definition of a cadet is a person in training to be an officer. they are in training. And I am one of the trainers. Its not about feeling myself or thinking I am better than they are.Its about my experinces and trying to impart that upon the cadets.

Do I think caets should "hit the wall" and screa m at the top of their lungs? No i do not, but I also believe they need challenging training and situations to prepaer them to be pilots,future military or civilain leaders. Lets face it, most youths join CAP because they want some affiliation withthe military and they have an intetnion of going into the service someday. So, why not cater to that desire and get them ready for that. I am NOT for running CAP like a quasi Boy Scout organization. thats not what we are. We are a military organization. People come to us because they have an interest inthe military.

[Ned]

I think cadets need to understand their place in CAP.

Absolutely.

They are indeed military students who are supported by some dedicated seniors, including yourself.

But they are no less of a member of CAP than you or me.

They are to be trained, respected, and protected.

Just like you and me.

They have every right and privilege of membership.

Just like you and me.

And they expect to be treated professionally.

Again, just like you or me.

A few years ago, I ws a TAC officer at a Region Encampment. I was a Senior Member 1st Lt. The Cadet Commander was under the impression that she was "my" superior. She would attempt to give me orders and tell me what to do with the Flight in my chrge. When I would suggect something, she told me she wasnt going to do it. Thats when the "military" in me came out and we had a heart to heart. She got mad with me and told the Encampment Commander that I hollard at her. I told him, that I am an adult here on my own time . I am here to train cadets not have cadets trainme.

Interesting.

You - as a Tactical Officer -- are certainly not in her chain of command.  She is definitely not your CAP boss.

But of course, she is not in your chain of command, either.  IOW, you are not her boss. She doesn't work for you anymore than the Dining Facility Manager does.

And if you had "hollard" at her, she should have mentioned that to her bosses, because "hollering" at cadet commanders is not in the job description of Tactical Officers, and could constitute improper hazing, depending on the circumstances.

A lot of cadets, especially Senior cadets have this idea that they ar ein charge. My feeling is they are "cadets". The definition of a cadet is a person in training to be an officer. they are in training. And I am one of the trainers. Its not about feeling myself or thinking I am better than they are.Its about my experinces and trying to impart that upon the cadets.

You certainly are a CP trainer.  And thank you for that, BTW. 

But we are never done learning in CAP.  As seniors in CP we take turns as "trainers" and "trainees" regularly.  None of us knows it all, and we can all learn things from some of our terrific "Senior cadets."

Do I think caets should "hit the wall" and screa m at the top of their lungs? No i do not, but I also believe they need challenging training and situations to prepaer them to be pilots,future military or civilain leaders. Lets face it, most youths join CAP because they want some affiliation withthe military and they have an intetnion of going into the service someday. So, why not cater to that desire and get them ready for that. I am NOT for running CAP like a quasi Boy Scout organization. thats not what we are. We are a military organization. People come to us because they have an interest inthe military.

Again, thank you for your service.

[flyguy06]

Yes, I agree they are members of Civil Air Patroljust like me, but they have a different role to play then I do.

Your assumption sounds like just because I out rank them, I somehow do not respect them. Thats not true. Just because you are tough on someone or exert your authority or even yell at somebody doesnt mean you dont respect them. I remember onetime when I was a butter bar Platoon Leader in Bosnia. I screwed something up and my CO yelled and said words to me that would make a nunn blush. After it was over, he asked me to stay and listen to the ballgame with him. He always tld me business is business and should NEVER be personal.

Again, yelling doesnt equate to unprofessionalism. Unprofessionalism is getting personal with a person, and that is wrong. Sometimes when correcting behavior you have to use a tone of voice tolet the person know you are serious. Just like when parents correct their children (at least in my upbringing)


As far as my example. You say the cadet wsnt in my chain of command. But I dont theink tha tmatters. I outrank her. Thats like saying if I am inthe army and a captain from another unit gives me an order, i should tell him he is not in my chain of command. That would not go over very well. As a senior member I am responsible for ALL cadets, not just the ones I am assigned to . I am responsible for their safety, their training, and their development. So, in your philosiphy, If I am a TAC officer of a flight, and I see a cadet from another flight about to do something toharm himself. I should go and find his TAC officer to correct him. That deosnt sound right to me. Its not about chain of comand, its about authority. Allcadets work for all seniors. This is not a business. This is training. cadet training.

the problem is some (not all )  senior member do not know how or desire to train and lead by example. I know how to D&C. I know how to call cadence. I know how to conduct PT and I do it. In my home squadron, I have 8 cadets all of whom are cadet basics. So, I have to be the cadet commander. I have to form them up and march them until they get to the level to do it themselves. I am a very invloved Senior member.I am not going to take a week off of my pying job to go and babysit cadets and make sure they dont hurt themselves. If I am going to sacrafice my job and vacation days, I want to be invloved. Thats why I do it. To develop future leaders.

Is this a wrong attitude to have  in CAP?

[Ned]

Yes, I agree they are members of Civil Air Patroljust like me, but they have a different role to play then I do.

Your assumption sounds like just because I out rank them, I somehow do not respect them.

Not quite.

I assumed (based on your description of the incident) that "hollering" at the most senior cadet officer at a region encampment over differences in leadership styles might be disrespectful and possibly even hazing.

I also assumed (based on your statement "I am here to train cadets; not have cadets train me") that you were not open to even the possibility that a Spaatz cadet with 8 or more years in the program could ever know something you do not already know as a CAP 1st lieutenant.

Was I wrong?

As far as my example. You say the cadet wsnt in my chain of command. But I dont theink tha tmatters.

So, LT, when does the chain of command matter?

Why would we have such a restrictive concept if the only thing that matters is:

I outrank her.

But I must confess I find this statement somewhat worrisome:

Its not about chain of comand, its about authority.

And

Allcadets work for all seniors. This is not a business.

Are you at least open to the notion that cadets -- at least cadet leaders -- are our colleagues in the business of training cadets?

Wouldn't that be a respectful way to treat a young adult?

Is this a wrong attitude to have  in CAP?

You tell me.


Sir, I genuinely appreciate your contributions to training cadets, both at the squadron and at encampments.  You are indeed making a contribution to the future of America.

But I would ask you to give some thought to what an effective cadet/senior working relationship should be, and in particular when it involves cadet officers.

In my humble opinion, it has less to do with authority, rank, and "hollering" than it does with quiet and professional mentoring, coaching, and training.

I agree that sometimes a raised voice may be necessary to help a cadet focus on what is important.  But that is only one tool in the "leadership tool box"; and one that should be used rarely.




Ned Lee
DCP, PCR
#356

[flyguy06]

Sir, I appreciate your comments. I understand wher eyou are comming from. Please believe I am not an abuser of cadets. i do not haze cadets. My only desire is to make them into strong leaders. In order to do that I have to lay down strict rules.. People are hesitant to be strict because it may be precieved as hazing. I think part of beng a leader is knowing how far to take something and that will depend on the person you are instructing.

You may be right though CAP may have gotten too soft for me. It may not be for me anymore. I have to evaluate that each week.

Quote removed - MIKE

[flyguy06]

Please do not think that I do not respect cadets. I have theutmost respect for cadets. If I didnt care about cadets, i wouldnt take time out of my busy schedule to work with them. I ama young Senior Member. I have a full life outside of CAP. i am a National Guard officer. I am an aspiring airline pilot, and I am a starving CFI. i have a girlfirned. I am active in my colleg eFraternity. So,  iam a busy person. I dont work with cadets to get my glories. Ihave better things to do with my time than holler at teenagers. i work with cadets because I know what it di dfor me and I want to pass my experience on to somebody else.

[SGT Dusty]

Being an officer, I would certainly hope that at some point in your career, your superiors pointed out the value of spell check...

[flyguy06]

I spell very well. But since I am NOTbeing graded hre and you KNOW what I am trying to say, it doesnt matter to me. But thanks for pointing it out. Be Blessed

[mikeylikey]

I spell very well. But since I am NOTbeing graded hre and you KNOW what I am trying to say, it doesnt matter to me. But thanks for pointing it out. Be Blessed

Wow....National Guard standards seem to be slipping these days.  As a fellow Officer, I would like to say, take a second to push the spell check button.  What kind of example are you setting to future Officers.  I forget to push it sometimes myself.  I can understand that, but saying you don't need to when there are so many spelling Nazis running through the forum here......come on! 

Anyway......sounds like you have a very busy life.  National Guard Officer and in a Frat......must be awesome.  I had to give my fraternity days up after commissioning.  So tell me (if you want), did you do OCS, ECP, Direct Commission?