Developing and Maintaining Discipline as part of the normal routine...

[jimmydeanno]

I was browsing through YouTube today and came across this video (It's 13 minutes long)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHzTUYAOkPM

and it got me thinking - what is the typical environment in squadrons and what do we do to develop those environments.

I have been to many squadrons and have definitely noticed changes in "culture" throughout them.  You go into some and the cadets slam themselves against the wall to the point where you can see the slight indent while screaming for everyone to hit the wall.  Then there are the others that go to the opposite extreme where you walk by a C/Lt Col and he says, "Yo, what's up?"

I've found that my squadron is about right smack dab in the middle.  The cadets are courteous - they hold doors for each other and the seniors, they say "sir and ma'am" as though it were a normal part of their vocabulary, but we don't have cadets hitting walls, etc.  The cadets are not afraid to speak to the seniors, but they understand "their role" in the squadron.  When approached or when we are approached they are open and forthcoming and are able to express themselves in a respectful and courteous manner without it being excessive.  "Sir, this cadet believes that this program is an excellent opportunity.  This cadet would not be where he is today if this cadet had not joined the CAP, SIR!" doesn't happen (Thank God!)

I'm rather curious where some squadrons get these ideas and what they do to implement them.  For instance, learning to "hit the wall," where does that come from?  Did some senior somewhere say, "Meh, it's not enough that I get a verbal greeting as they pass, I want them to really move out of the way." Or, do you think that a lot of these "traditions" are cadet initiated in an attempt to be "more disciplined" or "hardcore" than the next cadet.

The video I posted made me think of this because of the opposite extremes that the instructor took.  The beginning reminded me of the "hitting the wall" squadrons and the end reminded me of the "Yo, sup" squadrons.

What do you guys/gals have as an environment in your squadrons?  What type of environment are your cadets expected to maintain?  Do you think they really have an understanding of "Customs and Courtesies" as well as what is supposed to be expected of them?

Are there certain "discipline" classes or routines that your squadrons do?  How does it incorporate in the entire understanding of what "discipline" is?  I've seen squadrons that expect their cadets to stand at attention in front of their chairs with the whole "Seats" command, but nothing else is all that formal.  What does that teach? 

I don't know where I'm going with this, maybe I just wanted you to watch the video, but maybe talking about some of this will generate a discussion. ...meh

[SDF_Specialist]

In my unit, cadets don't hit the wall. The will greet each other and officers alike. To have them hit the wall is assinine. There is a very relaxed feeling in my unit to where you feel comfortable coming in, and not having to worry about Gunnery Sargeant Hartman walking nito the room, and choking you. Some units I've seen are run by prior military guys who haven't gotten back into the civilian frame of mind, so I can see where the cadets hitting the wall would come in. Of course, this isn't always the case.

[dwb]

It depends on the tone set by people with the word "commander" in their job title.

I think hitting the wall is stupid.  When cadets hit the wall at encampment, I would correct them and tell them to stop.  Most got it, some didn't.

To me, part of being a cadet is learning things you will use in your adult life.  Opening doors, verbal greetings, being courteous, paying attention when the Dude in Charge is speaking, etc... those are all things that will serve cadets well anywhere, not just CAP.

On the other hand, no one in my office hits the wall when the CEO walks by.

CAP also has core value of Respect, and I think it's important to check the "culture" of the unit against the core values the organization is trying to teach.  Screaming "sir, this cadet has no excuse, SIR!" isn't really showing respect, and in fact, it's probably showing disrespect to the poor cadet down the hall trying to concentrate on his achievement test over all that noise.

So that's where I think the culture should be grounded:

- What are our core values?
- How can we create a culture that mirrors what cadets will see in the everyday workings of adult business/military environments?

Ovbiously, there is great disparity in corporate cultures, but at least it's a starting point.

[Avery]

I'm in a Senior squadron, fairly new to CAP, but let me pass on something from my navy experience. In the officer corps we have an expression: "Don't trip over your sword." It means don't get too impressed with yourself. I wonder what the equivalent AF expression would be? Seems it would apply here.

[jimmydeanno]

^That's a great expression

I guess I wonder why/how some seniors either teach their cadets that these extremes are "normal" or how things are "supposed to be done." or allow it to continue after seeing it.

Has anyone run into these situations and tried to "rectify" it?  Any obstacles?  What approach have you taken? 

Now, there is the ecampment scenario mentioned above where it could be a brief "don't do that again," but when trying to effectively change the culture/environment in your squadron's cadet corps & CP staff, where do/have you started?

I understand that squadrons have thier own traditions and routines, but sometimes they are too extreme.  I'm not really sure which one irritates me more, the too extreme or the too lax...

[jeders]

In my last squadron, when I was C/CC I had a new cadet move in from another unit. After a while he became the C/First Sgt and at a staff meeting proposed making cadets hit the wall anytime a staff cadet or senior member walked by. He did this because he wanted us to be more hardcore. The DCC and myself agreed that while this may be acceptable in some training environments, in general it was pointless, so we nixed the idea.

From this, my guess is that it comes mostly from cadets that want to be hardcore, although there are certainly some seniors that think the same way.

[kpetersen]

I think the main obstacle to discipline is getting the entire top into the idea. I've had the issue where the C/DC (or other higher person) talks to a cadet for not saluting him, but then the C/DC fails to salute all seniors.  At one of my old squadrons, we had a hard enough time trying to get cadets to pay attention in classes.  If it's going to be something changed, then it needs to be done from the entire top, and everyone needs to be corrected on it, not just the basics.

One of the other things I've commonly seen is seniors failing to salute each other, particularly with cadets around.  I understand the senior (dark) side is different, and that it can be more relaxed, but you have to have the seniors still at least giving a semblance of it when its in front of the cadets.

that's my lincolns.

[mikeylikey]

"Hitting the wall" does not even happen in the military (other than a few weeks of basic training).  I walk down a  crowded hallway and no one moves for me, I push my way through the same as everyone else.  However, when I approach an enlisted person and only one of us can get past the other, he or she will usually let me go out of respect for rank. 

Anyway.........in my SQD when cadets are sent to the classroom for a class they will sit down and come to attention when the instructor enters the room.  They learn nothing for standing at attention waiting.  I have always hated that.  When I visit other SQD's and see that happen, I make it known how STUPID that practice is.

I also hat the phrase "by your leave Sir".  Where the crap did that come from?  These cadets when trying to pass an officer in the hallway will stop, stand at attention, and ask the Officer "by your leave" and the officer will just wave them past.  I hate that so much!  That was around when I was a cadet, hated it then, and hate it even more now. 

I also hate mass inspections that take 20 minutes where all the cadets are standing at attention.  There is no reason for the only cadet to be standing at attention to be the cadet being inspected.  Everyone else should be at rest or at ease. 

I can go on......but my fingers are getting tired!   

[Ned]

This is an area of particular interest to me:

Defining and setting the "military discipline level" at a given activity.

Part of the problem is that neither the US military nor CAP have the concepts and/or vocabulary to describe the continuum of military-style discipline.

Think of it as a 10-point scale ranging from Girl Scout Llama Camp (0) to a peak moment at USMC basic when you are standing by your rack at attention at 0300 with Gunny Hartman spitting and screaming in your ear. (10)

I wrote an article on this -- at least in the encampment context -- for Cadet Stuff.

Click here.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[mikeylikey]

^  You don't have to scream to maintain discipline!  True discipline comes from within the individual.  He or she decides what to do and what not to do.  I won't get into the philosophy of the subject, but I think we are getting discipline and controll of others confused here.

[Eclipse]

when cadets are sent to the classroom for a class they will sit down and come to attention when the instructor enters the room.  They learn nothing for standing at attention waiting.  I have always hated that.  When I visit other SQD's and see that happen, I make it known how STUPID that practice is.

There shouldn't be "levels" of discipline and courtesies- it should be consistent, and if it >was< consistent, we wouldn't need these discussions.

Mikey- that's awesome that you feel so strongly about something that you think its ok to "correct" a practice everywhere but your home unit.

Leadership regarding discipline is simple.  "Do as I do", not "do as I say".

Salute when appropriate and safe.  Use Sir or Ma'am as a matter of course, instead of sounding like you are choking down mashed potatoes. Its not going to kill anyone to come to attention when an instructor, superior officer, or Commander enters the room.

Never treat anyone with less than the respect you would expect in the same situation, be it by grade, position, or relative experience.

Your personal opinion regarding a particular practice, or personality, especially outside an area you have authority or influence over, should be kept to yourself.

When it says "Commander" on your business card, make whatever changes you see fit.

[mikeylikey]

Eclipse......I don't correct anything anywhere, I just make it known that I believe what the other people are doing is stupid.  As far as voicing my opinions in "areas I have no authority in" is in itself ridiculous.  I can voice my opinions as can everyone else where and when they please.  Now, voicing ones opinions of course carries the risk of you either sounding like a fool, sounding very smart or making yourself look like an ass.  I don't force anyone to do anything, commanders make decisions, but until there is a regulation saying "all opinions must not be conveyed" I will continue speaking out.

Are you so "high and powerfull" that you will strike down the first "outsider" that tells you what you may be doing is stupid, unsafe, un-necessary or just plain lame?

The "Do as I do" is not allways the best practice regarding discipline.

[Eclipse]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Whether it is appropriate, or professional, to express that opinion, especially in an organization such as CAP, is open to debate.

And yes, if you walk into an activity I have authority over and start calling my practices "stupid" you will invited to leave.

There is a time and process for dissension in an organization like CAP, calling a practice "stupid" isn't it.
(boards a little laggy tonight)

[Ned]

^  You don't have to scream to maintain discipline!  True discipline comes from within the individual.  He or she decides what to do and what not to do.  I won't get into the philosophy of the subject, but I think we are getting discipline and controll of others confused here.

There is no one "sure-fire" way to help others develop self discipline.  Including "screaming."

But pretty much every military-based organization in the world occasionally uses loud voices to help their trainees focus and progress.

And of course "true discipline comes from within the individual."

At some point.

But until sufficient discipline comes from within, most students (military or not) get a little help with externally-imposed discipline.  Otherwise we would never need parents, teachers, or professional drill instructors.

And your confusion about differentiating "discipline" and "control of others" is a pretty good example of the problem I mentioned.  What some folks call "stress", others call "exteranally-imposed discipline."  Or "military discipline."

Even academia has trouble settling on a common set of terms to describe what we are talking about.

And until we can agree on what we are talking about, it will be extremely difficult for CAP to develop our "toolbox" to help us teach leadership in a military context.  IOW, if can't describe what a squadron meeting or encampment should look or feel like in terms of miltary discipline levels, it will be nearly impossible for us to prescribe how it "should be" and the best methods to get there.

And it's a real problem.  We commonly hear about units and/or activities that are "too strict" or "too lax", but we can't begin to agree what those terms mean, let alone address the problems.

But we need to try.

Ned Lee

[ZigZag911]

WIWAC I learned the hard way about screaming....all it  really accomplished was hurting my throat!

Changed my ways even back then....

The whole point to discipline in CAP is to instill unit cohesion, a sense of teamwork, an environment of mutual respect.

The ultimate goals are self-discipline, based on self-respect.

"Hitting the wall", I believe, was a naval custom....in cramped quarters aboard ship (particularly submarines) the junior made way for the senior -- both a sign of respect, and an indication that whatever The Captain was doing was probably more important than what  Seaman Apprentice Snipe was engaged in! Not necessarily, pf course....the skipper could have been on the way to chow, while the EM was going to adjust some critical piece of gear!)

Rarely in CAP do we encounter such tight spaces....I honestly think it is something that got adopted in military schools, and somehow made it's way (probably thru the movies!) into CAP.

The other extreme is equally unsatisfactory. While group CC I was visiting a squadron, and chanced to hear  cadet officers addressing the DCC by his first name, in private.

After they left, when I raised the matter with him, he could not comprehend why I was concerned.

A relaxed atmosphere in which all feel part of the team is highly desirable....but I don't think you achieve that by doing the "Gunny Hartman" routine (much as I love Mail Call!), nor by being the cadets' 'buddy'....that's not leadership!

[flyguy06]

There is no typical environment for cadets. Thats what makes the cadet program unique to the location of the unit. Every where will be different and it should be. The challenges of Hawaii Wing are not the same as the New York Wing. I work in an inner city squadron, so the cadets I have will be diffeent from a suburban area unit.

So it all depends on the cadet base on how you run your program. I do not have cadets hitting the wall. But I do make it  a point to make sure they are curteous and respectful to Senior members. I have no cadet officers in my unit so they really dont have interaction with senior rankng cadets yet.


Discipline has never really been an issue with my cadets because of their parents. But I do emphasize military disicpline which a lot of them are not used to. So I think it all depends on where you are located. Your demographics in your unit

[jimmydeanno]

The "normalization" or definition of "normal" in regards to discipline or C&C should be at least attempted.

I completely understand the need to vary training or interaction based on needs of the squadron, however, many of the extremes that some squadrons go to only confuses/provides a dis-service to members.

For example:  Cadet MSgt Bob Shead comes from a squadron in which they don't bother with those silly titles or saluting, he's a member of the "Children are our future" squadron.  He realizes that he needs to go to summer camp so he won't have to pin on his insignia anymore, whatever they stand for.

Cadet Shead fills out his camp application and packs his bathing suit and sun tan lotion.  Upon arrival to summer camp, he greets this really loud counselor, aka "The First Sergeant," who comes from the 222nd Special Forces Ranger Cadet Squadron, with a giggle and a "I'm standing right here ya' know..."

The First Sergeant immediately makes it his mission to instill some "discipline" into this cadet during his Boot Camp.

Now, the week is rolling along and our esteemed First Sergeant, in an effort to make all the cadets like those from his squadron has them doing 500 pushups every morning, followed by 500 sit-ups, running the mile by flight with a 300 pound log above their head while singing cadences.

Well, this isn't what Cadet Shead had thought his days were going to be like, so he decides he's going to leave encampment.

The first sergeant is happy because that cadet couldn't hack it anyway and would never make it as an Army Ranger.

Ok, so maybe that's an exaggeration, but maybe not.  There is such a variance as to what the cadet program "is" across our organization that the cultures vary greatly.  The reason someone joins or doesn't sometimes greatly depends on the atmosphere presented at a particular squadron.  So Cadet Shead moves and there is only "Special Forces" squadrons where he moves and quits the program.  The first sergeant moves and there is only "Children are our future" squadron and quits.

Or...one of those cadets joins a squadron like the others and tries to affect change, but is held back now because they "don't get it."

[flyguy06]

Nobody can do 500 push ups in a mornng at one setting so your example is very extreme. But as to what you said, you sound like you are saying we should try to make each cadet happy so they wil stay. Bottom lne is CAP is not for everybody. You are going to have young people join, find out its not what they thouight and leave. It happens in every organization out there. You cant please every one all the time. We just have to accept that we will lose some cadets. Its nobody's fault, its the nature of the program.

Also, there are standards found in CAPM 52-16. It discusses C&C, How cadets  interact with each other. Its spelled out so there should be no excuse for a junior cadet not rendering proper curteousies to senior ranking a

[jimmydeanno]

author=flyguy06 link=topic=3095.msg58383#msg58383 date=1190335632]
Nobody can do 500 push ups in a mornng at one setting so your example is very extreme.

I know my example was extreme, all the characters were.

But as to what you said, you sound like you are saying we should try to make each cadet happy so they wil stay. Bottom lne is CAP is not for everybody. You are going to have young people join, find out its not what they thouight and leave.

No, that's not what I was trying to say.  My point was that CAP is something different everywhere and people often times join under false pretenses of what the organization "is."  My examples are actually fairly common.

The "Children are our future" squadron often times comes about when "mommy types" join a squadron and their sole purpose is to make the organization only about having fun, anyway possible.  Since they have no experience or desire to run a program that instills some "military style" discipline or routine so their cadets experiences end up being not what the program is really about.  The get a rude awakening when they go to outside activities in which there is a higher level of military style discipline present - such as encampment.

The "222nd Special Forces Ranger Cadet Squadron" is also another "real" type of squadron.  The cadets and leadership of the squadron view the cadet programs purpose to "prepare youth for the military."  So, they essentially create a mini Paris Island during their squadron meetings.  They are frequently run by over zealous people who know what the military is all about because they watched full metal jacket and had an uncle who was a Marine when they were growing up.  Either that or they were military washouts of some sort who are trying to prove something.

Both of the situation happen, sometimes to those extremes, which gets people to join under those false pretenses.  The first cadet doesn't expect to have to act in a certain manner and the second is expecting that first cadet to act in a certain manner.  Both get irritated with each other and the other squadron's environment.

It happens in every organization out there. You cant please every one all the time. We just have to accept that we will lose some cadets. Its nobody's fault, its the nature of the program.

You tend to lose fewer people when the program isn't grossly distorted into something its not.  You also tend to get more people to join if the extremes aren't used.  Parents get leary of the "special forces" squadron and cadets get bored in the "children are our future" squadron.

Also, there are standards found in CAPM 52-16. It discusses C&C, How cadets  interact with each other. Its spelled out so there should be no excuse for a junior cadet not rendering proper curteousies to senior ranking officer

CAPR 52-16 doesn't discuss C&C it simply states in the leadership expectations "practice customs and courtesies."  52-16 lays out the requirements of the cadet program but it's purpose isn't to explain the environment of the CAP cadet program.  So while it says "practice C&C" it doesn't give an idea of what "normal" is.  People who have experience with the military and have actually lived it or cadets/former cadet who came from those squadrons are going to have a better handle on what "normal" is.

The concern isn't about the cadets not performing customs and courtesies, but how the different interpretations affect the overall culture of the program.

[Snake Doctor]

Think of it as a 10-point scale ranging from Girl Scout Llama Camp (0) to a peak moment at USMC basic when you are standing by your rack at attention at 0300 with Gunny Hartman spitting and screaming in your ear. (10)

I believe the most important thing is to be consistant. I'm most comfortable using the above scale operating at a 6 or 7.  Set the standard and stick to it.  Members will rise up to or sink to the standard.   

I also hate the "By your leave" and hitting the wall is, for lack of a better word, stupid.