California CAP Members Can No Longer Marshal Non-CAP Planes

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

We were advised this week that neither Cadets or Senior Members could Marshal Non-CAP airplanes.  This will put a halt to a major portion of our activities at Air Shows.

Is this just a California policy or do other wings also prohibit marshaling private aircraft?

(Grammar corrected, thank you for catching it)

[Eclipse]

Nothing like that here to date.

[PHall]

We were advised this week that neither Cadets or Senior Members could Marshall Non-CAP airplanes.  This will put a halt to a major portion of our activities at Air Shows.

Is this just a California policy or do other wings also prohibit marshalling private aircraft?

At what airshow in California have we ever marshalled non-CAP airplanes?
Because I can't think of any airshow where we have marshalled aircraft, period.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Point of order from the resident grammarian:

You marshal airplanes. Marshall is a university in West Virginia.

And no, he's not the State Fire Marshall unless his name is Marshall, too. He's a marshal, like Marshal Dillon on "Gunsmoke." Not that I watch old TV westerns.

(grumbling)

[es_g0d]

The flightline program, in its entirety, is worthy of review.  Save for such activities such as Blue Beret, I must wonder whether or not the benefit is worth the risk.  So while I don't necessarily agree with the new CAWG policy, I can see some of its reasoning.  It will be interesting to see what shakes out.

(I'm glad for the grammatical point of order!  I'm hopeful that we can also keep hangar and hanger, brake and break, and chock and chalk apart!)

[SarDragon]

We were advised this week that neither Cadets or Senior Members could Marshall Non-CAP airplanes.  This will put a halt to a major portion of our activities at Air Shows.

Is this just a California policy or do other wings also prohibit marshalling private aircraft?

At what airshow in California have we ever marshalled non-CAP airplanes?
Because I can't think of any airshow where we have marshalled aircraft, period.

We did it a couple of years at Hemet-Ryan. Not sure about other places.

[SaBeR33]

We were advised this week that neither Cadets or Senior Members could Marshall Non-CAP airplanes.  This will put a halt to a major portion of our activities at Air Shows.

Is this just a California policy or do other wings also prohibit marshalling private aircraft?

At what airshow in California have we ever marshalled non-CAP airplanes?
Because I can't think of any airshow where we have marshalled aircraft, period.

We did it a couple of years at Hemet-Ryan. Not sure about other places.

My old squadron nonetheless...and I participated in said activities there as a cadet. from 1990 - 1995.

[Pylon]

Does that prohibit CAWG members from marshaling aircraft when they attend NCSAs like NBB?

[Eclipse]

And I'd have to ask who advised you?  Wing King?

[Flying Pig]

I believe we are only allowed to Marshal CAP Aircraft in CAWG now, by direction of the Wing CC.  Did something happen, or did some risk management nerd suggest this to solve a problem that didnt exist.

[A.Member]

Silly.

[Major Lord]

When I first joined, CAP ran the flight line at the Nut Tree airshow, including the "fly-away" aircraft/CAP radio box, and ran ground controls. I have not seen anything like that in recent times. It seems a shame to pull our badgers away from such a high profile aeronautical duty at an airshow, since it conflicts with a number of our goals; Recruit and retain cadets, and external AE education. I suppose we will have to add a new specialty badge soon....Ground Team Lawyer.

Major Lord

[Gunner C]

Ground Team Lawyer.

:clap:

The wave of the future . . . 

[Al Sayre]

This is probably going to get me flamed, but unfortunately in my experience, quite a few GA pilots are not used to having marshalers beyond the line boy at the local FBO.  They don't watch for marshalers, and they either don't know most of the signals beyond stop and come forward or they ignore them completely and taxi to where ever they want, this creates a dangerous situation for the marshalers and others who may be on the flight line. 

I've worked as a line boy in High School, as an LSE in the Navy on some pretty small decks, and marshaled a lot of GA aircraft at airshows both for CAP and other organizations, and nothing scares me more than a pilot who doesn't follow the instructions of the marshaler.

If you are marshaling non-CAP aircraft and someone has an accident, you will probably need a good lawyer.  I don't necessarily agree with a total ban, but I also don't generally think it's a good idea to have our cadets doing it either.

[Always Ready]

This is probably going to get me flamed, but unfortunately in my experience, quite a few GA pilots are not used to having marshalers beyond the line boy at the local FBO.  They don't watch for marshalers, and they either don't know most of the signals beyond stop and come forward or they ignore them completely and taxi to where ever they want, this creates a dangerous situation for the marshalers and others who may be on the flight line. 

No flaming required. Here's my observation/opinion. In my experience, there are a significant number (more than one, less than most) of CAP pilots who don't pay attention at all or pick and choose which commands to pay attention to. At the airshows/fly-ins I've marshaled at, GA pilots tend to pay more attention to their surroundings and to me because I am trying to keep their baby safe and it's a mutual goal. Most CAP pilots are not flying their baby, they are flying something covered by someone else's insurance. I've been in several situations where the CAP pilot completely ignored my commands or just told me to move out of the way so they could park closer to the Mission Base instead of where I needed them.

Just another reason to stay out of California (just kidding)

[Major Lord]

"you will probably need a good lawyer"

Are there "good" lawyers?

Major Lord

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Ground Team Lawyer.

:clap:
The wave of the future . . . 

They don't have to wear a uniform. 

[notaNCO forever]

Ground Team Lawyer.

:clap:

The wave of the future . . . 

I can see it now Hawk Mountain lawyer school.

[Flying Pig]

This is probably going to get me flamed, but unfortunately in my experience, quite a few GA pilots are not used to having marshalers beyond the line boy at the local FBO.  They don't watch for marshalers, and they either don't know most of the signals beyond stop and come forward or they ignore them completely and taxi to where ever they want, this creates a dangerous situation for the marshalers and others who may be on the flight line. 

I've worked as a line boy in High School, as an LSE in the Navy on some pretty small decks, and marshaled a lot of GA aircraft at airshows both for CAP and other organizations, and nothing scares me more than a pilot who doesn't follow the instructions of the marshaler.

If you are marshaling non-CAP aircraft and someone has an accident, you will probably need a good lawyer.  I don't necessarily agree with a total ban, but I also don't generally think it's a good idea to have our cadets doing it either.

I was going to point out the same thing.  Most GA pilots would completely blow you off, or not even understand the signals to begin with. 

[Larry Mangum]

It is probably more a response to CAPR900-5 to quote:

7. Air Shows.
a. Prohibited Activities. No unit or member of CAP is authorized to sponsor or cosponsor any air show. CAP members may not:
1) Accept rides in an air show as a part of any official CAP activity.
2) Be used as security guards, or damage control.
3) Taxi non-CAP aircraft before, during, or after an air show.
4) Direct parking of aircraft unless having received training on aircraft marshalling and having a flight line authorization on CAPF 101 or CAPF 101T.

It is probably easier to ban all marshalling rather then have the headaches associcated witch making sure that all personnel are properly trained and documented.

[Eclipse]

^ 900-5 has been in effect as above for a long time, nothing quoted is new, it just says you have to be a trained FLM/S, we're not security guards, and don't drive other people's planes.

Where did this rumor come from?

I agree that pointing a salad shooter with an over-taxed, cockpit-confused, pilot at a cadet with a couple of orange sticks to protect him isn't the safest thing we do, but I also suspect this is a wives tale, or an overstatement.

[RiverAux]

Don't see anything on the CA Wing web site.  They seem to keep some things updated, but don't seem to use it to distribute much useful news.  No wing supplement to 900-5, which I would think would be necessary if they're going to explicitly prohibit something that is allowed under certain conditions by a national regulation. 

[ßτε]

Just to quash the rumors that it is only a rumor:

email sent wing-wide 9 Mar 2009

To all CAWG members:

It appears I was not clear enough before and need to clarify further...in California, CAWG members, both senior and cadet, shall NOT marshal non-CAP aircraft; e.g. aircraft NOT operated by CAP members.  Member-owned aircraft shall be considered CAP aircraft for the purposes of this directive.

Properly qualified and trained CAP members may marshal CAP aircraft and CAP member-owned aircraft when properly supervised.

As the CAWG/CC, I have conducted an ORM analysis of the potential risks versus benefits for CAP marshaling non-CAP aircraft (aircraft other than corporate or member owned).  Since an increasing number of CAP mishaps have been relate to ground handling, especially in CAWG, I cannot in good conscience allow CAP and CAWG to accept the potential liability for mishaps resulting from the marshaling non-CAP aircraft.

This prohibition is in effect in California only and affects only CAWG operations.  Members participating in National Special Activities (e.g. Blue Beret at Oshkosh) shall operate under the direction of the respective activity commander.

Thanks,

Ken

Col KW Parris, CAP
CAWG/CC

[lordmonar]

Intresting misuse of ORM.

A good use of command decision based on a liabilty issue....but let's all be clear...ORM is related to liabilty but it is not one and the same.

[scooter]

I also have watched CAP pilot ignore the guys trying to keep them safe on the ground. I witnessed on pilot almost run over a cadet marshaler because he wasn't paying attention. The cadet had to run for his life. We had and IC at a SAREX that made some pilots shut down their engines after start for starting without clearance from the marshaler. Thought he did the right thing. Taxied with ground mashalers my whole professional flying career. Love those guys, always watch them and follow instructions. If it doesn't make sense, I stop.  I always thought part of the MP curriculum should cover marshalers and why we use them. Not just what the waving of hands means in the book. It should always be part of SAREX evals. 

[RiverAux]

Personally I'm not a big fan of the flight line qualification and our wing rarely uses them, but I think this is something that is probably better addressed at the national level than the wing level. 

[Always Ready]

^May I ask why you are not a big fan of the FLM qualification? I'm curious

[JayT]

^May I ask why you are not a big fan of the FLM qualification? I'm curious

Many CAP bases have a very small area. There's no need for them in a lot of areas. Many times cadets are sent out undertrained. Many times cadets are sent to FLM because there's nothign else for them to do.

[RiverAux]

Basically, it is not necessary for our missions to operate with FLMs most of the time so the risk vs reward makes it not worth it in my eyes. 

Now, if it was one of those things that we used it all the time and I was sure that both the FLM personnel and the CAP aircrews knew and understood well how to work in that environment, then the marginal AE benefit of putting CAP members out there on the flightline might be worth it even if it still isn't necessary to get the job done. 

Keep in mind that I am a former cadet, but in my experience I just don't trust a 13-year old out in this sort of dangerous area trying to direct people driving dangerous pieces of equipment around.  Taking them out on a ground team is no more dangerous than taking them on a hike, but flightline is a different story, especially if it is a mission base with so many darn planes on it that having a flightline crew might actually make some sense. 

[Eclipse]

Keep in mind that I am a former cadet, but in my experience I just don't trust a 13-year old out in this sort of dangerous area trying to direct people driving dangerous pieces of equipment around.  Taking them out on a ground team is no more dangerous than taking them on a hike, but flightline is a different story, especially if it is a mission base with so many darn planes on it that having a flightline crew might actually make some sense. 

Its not supposed to be just a 13 year old, there's supposed to be at least one Flight Line Supervisor monitoring operations.

[JayT]

Keep in mind that I am a former cadet, but in my experience I just don't trust a 13-year old out in this sort of dangerous area trying to direct people driving dangerous pieces of equipment around.  Taking them out on a ground team is no more dangerous than taking them on a hike, but flightline is a different story, especially if it is a mission base with so many darn planes on it that having a flightline crew might actually make some sense. 

Its not supposed to be just a 13 year old, there's supposed to be at least one Flight Line Supervisor monitoring operations.

He/she can't be everywhere at once, and he/she can't stop some plane driver from ignoring a signal and crashing into someone he didn't even see.

[RiverAux]

I'd feel marginally better about it being done if there was a minimum age requirement of 16. 

[Always Ready]

Keep in mind that I am a former cadet, but in my experience I just don't trust a 13-year old out in this sort of dangerous area trying to direct people driving dangerous pieces of equipment around.  Taking them out on a ground team is no more dangerous than taking them on a hike, but flightline is a different story, especially if it is a mission base with so many darn planes on it that having a flightline crew might actually make some sense. 

Its not supposed to be just a 13 year old, there's supposed to be at least one Flight Line Supervisor monitoring operations.

He/she can't be everywhere at once, and he/she can't stop some plane driver from ignoring a signal and crashing into someone he didn't even see.

If it isn't safe enough for a 12 or 13 year old cadet, then it probably isn't safe enough for anyone else in the situation either. Maturity of age does not mean smarter or safer. Most 12-13 year olds are going to run like no other if they are about to get in trouble or hurt. I know some adults that can't say the same

If a FLM is close enough to get hit or touch an 'active' aircraft (meaning the engine is or could be running, I use the 'if there is someone in the cockpit' rule for this) or if they can do so in any of the possible paths of the aircraft, they are doing their job wrong and should be pulled from the flight line. If a marshaler is walking/running around while marshaling an aircraft or while in the path of active aircraft, they are doing their job wrong and should be pulled from the flight line. If the FLS is doing anything other than supervising the flight line and keeping an eye on every FLM and aircraft (for example if they are too busy parking planes or paperwork), they are doing their job wrong and should be pulled from the flight line.

I've pulled cadets and seniors from the flight line because they were doing something wrong or possibly not safe and I have no problems doing it again. I don't care if it is an AF 4 star general or a cadet airman, I will pull them off my flight line.

P.S. If someone doesn't have the proper training to keep them safe in the specialty (i.e. prerequisites), then they shouldn't be acting in that role. Period the end.

[♠SARKID♠]

This is probably going to get me flamed, but unfortunately in my experience, quite a few GA pilots are not used to having marshalers beyond the line boy at the local FBO.  They don't watch for marshalers, and they either don't know most of the signals beyond stop and come forward or they ignore them completely and taxi to where ever they want, this creates a dangerous situation for the marshalers and others who may be on the flight line.

With you all the way on that one.  CAP pilots who know to follow my commands, I will gladly marshal.  Canadian F-14s who work with marshals all the time, I will gladly marshal.  Joe "What's He Holding Those Orange Sticks For?" Blow, I will not marshal gladly.  That's one bologna slicer I wouldn't enjoy being near.

[Gunner C]

As a pathfinder, I had army pilots that wouldn't even acknowledge me standing there, even after setting up an LZ and making sure that they aren't going to have a rotor strike (easily).  A certain percentage of pilots are going to blow you off.  That's just the way they are (it's their wing tips).  But I've also had a C-130 crew that followed my directions to the letter - they were pros.  Our pilots (once again, a certain percentage) are not - they're just a private pilot with a spiffy golf shirt.

As far as being mature enough, that varies cadet to cadet.  The trainer needs to monitor the maturity and ability of each during their training.  If they're not ready, leave them in a supervised training role.  If they're ready, then use them.  But for heaven's sake, train those blisterhead pilots!

[SaBeR33]

I also have watched CAP pilot ignore the guys trying to keep them safe on the ground. I witnessed on pilot almost run over a cadet marshaler because he wasn't paying attention. The cadet had to run for his life. We had and IC at a SAREX that made some pilots shut down their engines after start for starting without clearance from the marshaler. Thought he did the right thing. Taxied with ground mashalers my whole professional flying career. Love those guys, always watch them and follow instructions. If it doesn't make sense, I stop.  I always thought part of the MP curriculum should cover marshalers and why we use them. Not just what the waving of hands means in the book. It should always be part of SAREX evals. 

I've seen the same thing happen at a disaster relief exercise where the pilot was promptly grounded by the IC. I also saw it happen while I was a crew chief on C-17s where some lame brain pilot decided he didn't have to pay attention to the head marshaller and nearly ran him over. That captain got the butt chewing of his life first by the Sq. Production Superintendent (a MSgt), then the Logistics Group Production Superintendent (a SMSgt), then the Logistics Group CC (a Col), and finally the Ops Group CC (another Col)! It was not a pretty site. Needless to say he was grounded for quite some time due to the lame brain's direct safety violation.

[Flying Pig]

I have very little experience being marshaled as a pilot.  Who is ultimately responsible if you smack your wing tip while someone is marshaling you?  PIC or Marshaler?

[SJFedor]

I have very little experience being marshaled as a pilot.  Who is ultimately responsible if you smack your wing tip while someone is marshaling you?  PIC or Marshaler?

Hmm.... I'm thinking.....

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

[Flying Pig]

Thats what I thought also.  Kind of an interesting situation to be placed into as PIC.

[a2capt]

Well, with that list of things that CAP can't be used for at an air show ..

That pretty much leaves parking and setting up chairs.

Try to get a bunch of cadets excited about that. As for AE, well, we can direct parking at our own meetings and set the chairs up there, too. So..

Many air shows we did, we had cadets in BDUs walking the rope line, just the presence kept the penetration down to practically nil. If someone did, they just got on the radio and an airport vehicle came right away.

They are also armed with recruiting paperwork and we always got praise from the air show/airport admin for the first class, professional results. The cadets fall in, have a flight leader, etc. The whole thing is well thought out. Much more so than the other youth organizations that also participated in the same fashion. Boy scouts, Young Marines.. who just never had it together at any event I ever saw them at.

Heck, when you have Young Marines taking aim with "air guns" (think Air Guitar) at CAF's B-17 and "shooting it down", talking about how many bags of groceries it could bomb on your mama's house, and over and over, how it could be crashed into various buildings around the airfield .. what does this tell you?

While our cadets faced the crowd and walked their posts. Individually, meeting each other at the points of over lap and then resuming, the others - they all congregate and talk about grocery bombing. ..and no one was watching what they were supposed to be watching. Needless to say..

Yes, this is just one example. But the results were strikingly similar at other events too, in my observation.

Because we were there, they got to climb around the B-17, into the cockpit, the belly and tail gunner positions, etc.. all the places where the public was not permitted.

Sadly, we had to turn down the offer of a ride, of course. Though some members did ride after the air show when their duties ended anyway, from one airport to the next in the area where they were going to be on display.

..and yes, I know that list is not new, but it seems that it's being scrutinized more and more, and long standing units that have served air shows well into the past are suddenly finding themselves unable to participate and provide in ways they used to.

Perhaps it's for another thread, but I find it saddening that an organization that was founded on member provided assets, some of them even strapping on bombs and going after targets - that we have turned into an organization run by lawyers and fear.  Try using a member owned aircraft now. It's like it's the plague, and try getting into another units aircraft, it's like you are penetrating the clique most of the time.

[EMT-83]

I have very little experience being marshaled as a pilot.  Who is ultimately responsible if you smack your wing tip while someone is marshaling you?  PIC or Marshaler?

This happened to a friend of mine in his Seneca. The FBO marshal directed him into a traffic cone, which his prop delivered to the tail of a Lear parked nearby. Repairs to both aircraft were over $100K. In the end, the FBO was found to be at fault.

[JayT]

Perhaps it's for another thread, but I find it saddening that an organization that was founded on member provided assets, some of them even strapping on bombs and going after targets - that we have turned into an organization run by lawyers and fear.  Try using a member owned aircraft now. It's like it's the plague, and try getting into another units aircraft, it's like you are penetrating the clique most of the time.

You know, we all grumble about that, but when it comes down to it, how are you going to explain to twelve year old Cadet Tommy's mother that we're still picking up with with a sponge and plastic bag.

Is it a stupid rule? Partially. Put an age limit on it.

Should member owned assist be used more? Definately.

[PHall]

Thats what I thought also.  Kind of an interesting situation to be placed into as PIC.

If you don't think the marshaller is directing you safely, then STOP THE AIRCRAFT!

Wave them over and talk about it.

[Always Ready]

Is it a stupid rule? Partially. Put an age limit on it.

I think you are right. After reading up on some stuff and remembering some personal experiences dealing with cadets, I've changed my stance on the age limit. NBB says has a 16 years and older limit and I think that would be a good number to start with.

I think (as always) that the FLS (and someone of importance in the cadet's squadron should be saying 'yay' or 'nay' to their maturity level waaaay before they even touch the flight line) should make the determination factor about letting cadets (and SMs for that matter) marshal aircraft based on situation (# of planes, weather, ramp space, # of GA aircraft in vicinity, etc.) and the cadet (or SM)'s maturity level.

I've worked with some 13 year old cadets who could marshal aircraft like no other. They were mature and knew how dangerous the situation was. However, I have had to deal with cadets 12-15 y.o., a certain C/Capt (16-17 y.o. IIRC), and a 40-something Major (who somehow was signed off on FLM & FLS) who just weren't ready for that kind of responsibility.

[Always Ready]

Thats what I thought also.  Kind of an interesting situation to be placed into as PIC.

If you don't think the marshaller is directing you safely, then STOP THE AIRCRAFT!

Wave them over and talk about it.

After you kill the engine of course Otherwise you will be in more trouble than if you hit another aircraft

Or you can wave at the marshaller to get them to move out of the way. Either way, if it isn't safe DON'T DO IT!

[LtCol057]

I know here in NC wing, an order was passed down by the former wing cc that anyone that violated directions given by a qualified FLM or FLS was grounded until they had a one-on-one with the wing cc.

The current wing cc is a big supporter of the FLM/FLS specialties. He even teaches them. 

But, IMO, the responsibility still lies on the pilot to pay attention. Not getting things ready to get out of the plane while it's still moving.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Flying Pig]

Thats what I thought also.  Kind of an interesting situation to be placed into as PIC.

If you don't think the marshaller is directing you safely, then STOP THE AIRCRAFT!

Wave them over and talk about it.

Well, yeah.  No kidding.  But accidents done usually happen when you see them coming.  It a lagit question.  If I am taxiing, being marshaled, and my wing tip hits another aircraft because the marshaller told me I was OK, do I need to whip out my checkbook?  Or does the 13 yr old cadet need to call his parents to bring theirs?

[PHall]

Thats what I thought also.  Kind of an interesting situation to be placed into as PIC.

If you don't think the marshaller is directing you safely, then STOP THE AIRCRAFT!

Wave them over and talk about it.

Well, yeah.  No kidding.  But accidents done usually happen when you see them coming.  It a lagit question.  If I am taxiing, being marshaled, and my wing tip hits another aircraft because the marshaller told me I was OK, do I need to whip out my checkbook?  Or does the 13 yr old cadet need to call his parents to bring theirs?

Just because you're being marshalled does not relieve the PIC from making sure they have adequate clearance.

Even in the military, who use marshallers on every flight, if a marshaller screws up and directs your wingtip into a fixed object, both the marshaller and the pilot at the controls are going to get nailed.

Because as the pilot at the controls you never give up responsibility for the aircraft.
You may accept guidance from a marshaller, but it's still the pilot at the controls who controls what the aircraft is doing.