New Summer Powered Flight Uniform Voted Down

[DG]

Our National Volunteer Staff Leaders put together a proposal which then was presented to the National Board in Orlando, in respect to caring for our powered flight mission aircrews flying in the summer heat.       

A proposal to authorize a New Summer Flight Uniform.

Blue golf shirt and khaki shorts.  White socks and white tennis shoes.

The vote did not carry.

Wing CC's and Board members, mainly from the Southwest, expressed that they did not mind flying in nomex flight suits or otherwise in long pants in the heat of their summers.

No word on how many of the nay voters actually fly our a/c in the summer heat.

In the heat and humidity of other parts of the country, it gets oppressive.  That is why a summer glider uniform is authorized,  And why a summer powered flight uniform is authorized for the summer program at NESA MAS in the summer heat in Indiana.

Heat in the cockpit in summer powered flight ops, especially when flying low and slow, is a serious safety issue.  Thankfully, as PIC, we can decline to fly in high heat and humidity.  Without reduction in our pay.

[Pylon]

Hmm... can't remember when I've seen military aircrews wearing their alternative tennis shorts and t-shirt alternative flying uniform... you know, because of the heat....

[DG]

Hmm... can't remember when I've seen military aircrews wearing their alternative tennis shorts and t-shirt alternative flying uniform... you know, because of the heat....

Serious question:

How many of our millitary powered flight mission aircrews are flying without air conditioning, low and slow, as we do?

[heliodoc]

^
Well I would imagine there are a number of operators out there


They may not be able to do the 90kt mark. But ARNG helo missions at the border with OH58's are not air conditioned missions by any stretch  (AC=doors off)

AC in UH60's may or may not work (you can ask any Army mech or CBP operators) CBP may have better AC than Army issue ships

But I wouldn't go saying CAP is theONLY operator doing low and slow missions

ALOT of USFWS , USFS, BLM, etc are doing lows and slows

Sheriffs Dept with fixed wing assets ETC ETC ETC

Personally Nomex or thecurrent unis are just fine.  Hopefully the crying stops for all the tennis shorts and tennis shoes.

During all my PPL Comml Inst etc never did I see an instructor in shorts.  Some of the CAP membership just needs to deal with it just like many paid and non paid professional aviation operations. When will all this uniform CRAP come to an end, HUH???

[davidsinn]

And why a summer powered flight uniform is authorized for the summer program at NESA MAS in the summer heat in Indiana.

Excuse me but that's pansyitis. I'm a GTM and an FLS in Indiana. I wear my BBDU in worse conditions than pilots do and I manage to do just fine. I was on the flightline at the SAREVAL in Huntingburg(quite a bit south of Atterbury) last August. The temperature on the thermometer 72" above the tarmac was 120 degrees and the humidity was very high with calm winds. The most relief we got was removing our blouses and standing under the wings to avoid the sun. In a cockpit you have fans. All we had was some wind from the props. If you don't like the heat from your Nomex wear the polo.

[Pylon]

Ref: "Thermal Conditions in USAF Aircraft Cockpits", USAF School of Aerospace Medicine:  http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA087273

A-10:   "Aircrew generally "characterized the cockpit as "hot" and: complained of sweating."  ... "In all flights, the T at the sensor cluster and; throughout the cockpit failed to meet the military specifications (21°C) for ECS performance.  Temperatures near the right calf averaged the coolest but still were above ,the 21°C maximum permitted. ECS inlet temperatures, which dropped substantially below 20°C on only one flight, appeared to be too high to provide any cooling to the cockpit."

Cockpit "Tb averaged 8°C above Tdb, which rarely fell below 33°C (91.4°F) during most ground runs and reached 40°C (104°F) several times at the sensor cluster during low-level flight."

(Yeah, doesn't sound hot in there.  I bet they decided to stop wearing their proper uniforms and opted for shorts, an ironic t-shirt and some white socks.)

Hmm...  Army says new helicopter cockpit overheats

And I'm sure that Pave Hawk cockpit is nice and cool under that glass in the desert or other hot, sunny environments. 

[jimmydeanno]

From my experience, the biggest factor between wearing your full BDU on the flight line and wearing full clothing in the cockpit is the movement (of the airplane) and airflow.

I think if you were to go sit yourself in the van on the tarmac with all the windows rolled up you'd feel differently than if you were outside (I know I do).  Heat and stuffyness in the plane tends to lead to more airsickness and nausea.

YMMV.

[MIKE]

Not this topic AGAIN!  Give it a rest DG.

[♠SARKID♠]

If the heat and humidity was an issue, our pilots would have been keeling over a long time ago.  Heat has been around for quite a number of years.  You're trying to prevent a situation that, were it an issue, would have been a problem decades ago.

[Short Field]

Heat and humidity are an issue.  Just because aircrews don't keel over does not negate it.  The standing joke around here is that summer is the time to work mission base because it is too hot to fly.   We also use more barf bags in the planes during the summer.  During one SAREX, one pilot even brought his portable AC unit to use in the CAP plane.  Would a cooler flight uniform make that big of a difference?  Probably not. 

National has spoken so the issue is close for now.   I am sure as with any uniform issue, it will keep getting raised over the years.

[LittleIronPilot]

I do not think it gets much more hot and humid than in Atlanta...and I can fly in the pickle-suit just fine.

Do I sweat? YUP! I just drink and deal with the heat.

No way in hell would I step out of a CAP plane on a real mission with other emergency operators wearing the "band camp" shorts/shirts/white socks combo.

[heliodoc]

Have to see the merit in Little Iron Pilots' comment

If we are or want to play with the big guys and gals in ES we had better get it together in the uniform dept and accept the real function, if we are call ourselves "professionals"

I can begin to wonder when the RealMilitary and ES operators see us coming out of our C182 NAVIII's with our "band camp" uniform.  Get the drift, all?   Keep this stuff up and we arre going to get exactly the number of missions as we do now or maybe even less.  Act and look the part, you all want to be like the real military, anyhow. As the Army taught me and as I taught myself.... Suck it up and drive on!!!!!!!!!!

Want to keep the function up in CAP, Inc??  If I were an ES operator on an incident, i'd act like the Forest Service (rumored) did years ago to some air tanker operators and hand the pilot some Nomex and see where the chirping went then.  Not saying that is the right approach, just saying live with what we have.

If CAP types "wanna" play military, there's a number of recruiters out there.  CAP is volunteer, but I see and read all these bling and unii monkeys just making a joke of it all

You know there are operators reading this forum....... just remember that...

[davidsinn]

From my experience, the biggest factor between wearing your full BDU on the flight line and wearing full clothing in the cockpit is the movement (of the airplane) and airflow.

I see your point, and raise you: Physical exertion on the flight line vs almost none in the aircraft. I have little sympathy for pilots who complain about the heat.

Thankfully, as PIC, we can decline to fly in high heat and humidity.  Without reduction in our pay.

That IMHO is an Alpha Hotel attitude. Drink some water and suck it up. If you where laying in a broken aircraft in BFE would you want the search pilots to refuse to fly because it's too hot? This is the type of attitude that labels us as a flying club. If a person wants the privilege of flying our airplanes they should accept the responsibility that goes with it.

[Shotgun]

Just to throw my two cents in - I think they made the right decision.

From a professionalism point of view wearing the shorts and sneakers just doesn't seem to work.

As pilot who flies in the deep south (Mississippi) I've had to deal with the heat quite often. But never once was it so unbearable that wearing shorts would have made the difference.

[Pumbaa]

Well I tried something this summer.....

I went 'nekid' and painted my body sage green, and then used super glue to put the patches on...  looked like an AF zoom bag.... but... Dang that hurt ripping them thar patches off!  Took chest hair and skin off.

I was really cool though.. needless to say the pilot wouldn't even get in the plane with me.. not sure why...

Seriously... How did the WWII pilots stay cool in the leather and bags?  Why are we getting so wimpy?  I bring a camelback flash flow and sip my H2O.. On the ground we open our windows and let the air blow in until run-up.  Once we are up then it is generally fine.  granted it feels great when I open the window to do some photo work...

[jb512]

Yeah, are people afraid to sweat these days??

If you can't handle heat and humidity then get your ass off the couch and do some exercise and drink some water.  You're going to perspire in a flight suit sitting on the ground at 101 in southern states but suck it up.

Geeze.

[stratoflyer]

I would like to mention that we, the adults on ES missions, set an example to the youngsters who still help out on missions and wear BDU's. You ground guys have my respect as you do a whole lot of physical work--I hope to one day join your ranks.

Pretty much it's all said here on this thread but may I reaffirm...

To those who are saddened by the dismissal of this uniform idea--grow a set!

This ain't a flying club, so don't dress like one.

Don't ever decline a mission because it's too uncomfortable, because maybe one day it could be your hide waiting to be located and rescued.

Get out and exercise.

Get used to drinking water and learn to like its taste!

And if anyone ever went through pilot training, they would know how hot these darn little airplanes can get, and still like flying!!

If the boys and girls overseas can deal with worse, why do I have to complain about a little discomfort!

I've only once flown with a man wearing shorts and sandals in a C-172SP NAVIII--WHAT A DISASTER PILOT THAT GUY WAS!!! This guy had the safety and professionalism of Duck Rogers!!

It gets real hot in that cockpit at low speeds and altitude wearing professional business attire! That could be trousers and a polo, or even aviator shirt with a tie!! (Yep, in GA airplanes!)  But all my flight instructors and professional pilots I've seen deal with it! Heck, even Miami approach sends us out low at those 'cooking' altitudes to stay out of the way of the airliners!!

And, and I also have ridden numerous times as a backseat passenger on 2 and 3 hour training flights with student pilots doing student things with the airplane! I got acclimated to the rear seat the natural way--by staying hydrated and roughing it out! all the while learning and watching out for traffic!!

How about some practice approaches anyone? At 1500 hrs? For a total of 2 hours? With all the bumps and air pockets the everglades can dish out? WITH foggles?!?!?! Shoot, now that's uncomfortable, but I suck it up!! and so do thousands of pilots everyday!!

If I made the conscious decision to volunteer to help out, it must have been made fully knowing that I may face some discomfort--be it lack of sleep or lack of comfort in a toaster oven with wings and a Lycoming!

Besides, anyone ever done slow flight over the beach viewing all the pretty eye-candy??? It gets hot then too!!!

[Short Field]

So because I like to be comfortable when I fly (like when I was at NESA), I am now part of a flying club, don't like water, have my ass stuck on a couch, have the professionalism of Donald Duck, and need to grow a pair?

I salute your professionalism. 

[WT]

But wait, you forgot one...  You also have no respect for your fellow man because you don't want to willingly sweat your butt off in a hot airplane because that is what he chooses to do...

[LittleIronPilot]

So because I like to be comfortable when I fly (like when I was at NESA), I am now part of a flying club, don't like water, have my ass stuck on a couch, have the professionalism of Donald Duck, and need to grow a pair?

I salute your professionalism. 

Yup!

OK...so that was a bit tounge-in-cheek...but [darnit] I WAS an ES operator (law enforcement), have friends in *EMA's, firefighters, etc.

You had better come to the party dressed appropriately or you are going to get marginalized, period. These guys and gals ARE professionals and since we do a PROFESSIONAL job, but as volunteers, we need to show up as professionals.

Hell I have flown my PERSONAL C182 in shorts, t-shirt, and jesus-sandals, but that is MY bird, not CAP's and certainly not on training missions/actual missions.

What is it about people today regarding uniforms? Seriously...I just do not get it.