G1000 Approach with backup flight instruments

[blackrain]

Just got my instrument ticket in a G1000 the other day and not suprisingly the topic of partial panel approaches came up. Apparently a lot of examiners aren't well versed in how to test partial panel in the G1000. I found a suggested test syllabus on the Garmin website but I still see a glaring problem if everything on the glass side of the panel tanks. There really is no back-up Nav and very little Comm capability. I would suggest we add something like the Sporty's handheld with ILS capability or better yet Cessna adding a similar stand alone capability to the G1000 equipped aircraft for redundent Nav/Comm capability.

Thoughts?

[SABRE17]

redundancy never hurts, my CFI can instruct in SR-22's but does all of his IFR training in his piper warrior/Cherokee. i don't know if CAP will provide backup ILS or radios in the G1000, so you might be on your own getting that.

[blackrain]

I'll run it up the flagpole and see where it goes. Who knows? May get it funded in the name of safety.

If not I might get the pilots in the squadron to pitch in and buy one to keep with the G1000. Glass cockpits are the wave of the future and I'd rather be prepared IMHO.

[simon]

if everything on the glass side of the panel tanks

What exactly do you mean by 'everything'? The PFD? Reversionary mode. PFD and MFD? Highly unlikely.

The pragmatic approach for a pilot flying under IFR would be for ATC to provide vectors to VMC.

As for losing comms, under what circumstances do you think the G1000 would lose all comms?

I suspect many pilots experienced with hard IMC already have their own transceiver. I do. Any mission pilot worth his salt would have one of them because there is no other way to silencing an ELT on an airport. (P.S. Don't forget your orange safety vest! ;-)

In any case, the point of a clearance is to enable a pilot to complete the flight without comms - NORDO. Just proceed to the airport (Assuming clearance), go to the IAF and shoot the approach 'own nav'.

As for CAP, their G1000 planes and equipping all with transcievers, my view given the above is that it is overkill. I mean, let's be honest, how many times a year does a CAP G1000 plane get flown in IMC where there is no possibility of an emergency landing VMC within range of the remaining fuel? In reality, losing both the PFD, MFD and all comms in hard IMC is such a remote corner case I don't think it is worth additional equipment, especially given an MP really ought to have their own transceiver in such conditions. As for no backup nav, ask ATC for no gyro turns to get down though a layer or on an approach. The latter really is the flight from hell, which falls in the 'good luck' category.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I love redundancy, it will save your butt more times than not when you need it. The more that can be done to ensure the safety of flight crews the better.

[Flying Pig]

......and CAP is going to go to Cessna and ask about redundancy, and Cessna is going to say "Why the heck did you buy G1000's then?" 

Not going to happen.  CAP is not going to pay $600K on a G1000 and then turn around and buy a bunch of redundant instrumentation.  If you want redundancy, your going to buy it yourself.  I can guarantee you that.

[Spaceman3750]

if everything on the glass side of the panel tanks

... PFD and MFD? Highly unlikely.

Sinking the Titanic was highly unlikely...

[SABRE17]

they said you couldn't kill the Bismark either...

[sparks]

A complete electrical failure in a steam gauge aircraft presents the same problem. No NA/Com capability but the AH and DG still functions as does the engine. So, the fallback plan for that happening is the same as the G1000 failure scenario. As mentioned earlier, many pilots carry contingency equipment just in case such as a battery operated Comm radio, maybe a GPOS and of course a flashlight. There are many endless possibilities to add to that short list limited only by them imagination, money, useful load and dread of the uncertain. In my squadron every pilot has a Sporty's radio in their flight bags and the squadron has a pair to provide to ground teams in case the primary CAP radio fails to function (yeah that never happens). All taht equipment was boought with individual funds, not NHQ or wing.

[blackrain]

Wow..this thread really took off. Guess we all woke up from our holiday hangover......Until New Years Eve

We can all think of unforseen failure scenarios. For me Apollo 13 comes to mind and a big one was a B-1 that went down in the Indian Ocean (should be the 1998 crash in KentuckY) a few years back due to a sneak circuit that failed and shut down all 4 engines.

Most A/C for now are a hybrid with a panel COMM/NAV with the standard vacuum system. One side mechanical and one electrical.

D/G A/I can go down but you still have you COMM/NAV. Yes I do carry a Handheld Transceiver (no nav on it) when I fly

The G1000 is predominately electrical and I've seen electrical systems go Tango Uniform with little warning especially newer systems with as yet unknown failure modes. Think software glitch, power surge/lightning. To me a $400 Handheld with COMM/ILS NAV that is completely independent system-wise can help keep a situation from becoming a major emergency versus an annoyance.

That said I doubt it will be funded anytime soon and I'll try and save up to get one. We'll see.

[Al Sayre]

Just out of curiosity, how many of y'all that have comm/nav handhelds have ever actually flown an approach with it?  Is it something you practice on any frequency?

[a2capt]

I've never used it as a primary, but have a clip to hold it in front of me, with the antenna high enough to have windscreen visibility, and used it in conjunction with primary receivers just to see how well it might be expected to perform.

[BradM]

http://g1000book.com/g1000-training-products.html

I'm reading this book. Perhaps there's a case similar mentioned here? Or you could write Max Trescott about it.

[simon]

Sinking the Titanic was highly unlikely...

The Titanic sunk because the bulkheads were not sealed at the top. Water spilled over from one into the next and so on. Hardly a valid comparison to the G1000.

A complete electrical failure in a steam gauge aircraft presents the same problem.

I sort of agree with you - but not quite. Most steam gauge aircraft do not have a backup battery, which all G1000 aircraft have. This is going to give you an hour of electrical supply to get on the ground. So unless you have an electrical fire, there is more redundancy built into the G1000. And you also have two buses, so you can shut down the non essentials and preserve power, another thing steam gauge aircraft do not have. Garmin thought the system through well. It may not be perfect, but it is very good.

how many of y'all that have comm/nav handhelds have ever actually flown an approach with it?

Anyone who has tried to use one in a plane quickly realizes that it is more difficult than having comms through a headset. The solution is to have a cable that plugs into the transceiver and the other end into your headset. Many transceivers come with this and that's what I have. With the cable, there is no difference between that and regular panel mount radio, except maybe a bit more distraction changing frequencies.

I have had to use my transceiver when my alternator died at night in a turbo Mooney halfway between San Jose and Los Angeles and it worked like a champ with the cable. I shut off everything except some lights, pulled every non essential fuse and limped back with the transceiver. ATC was fine with me going through the Charlie without a transponder.

I can attest for one other handy use for the transceiver if your radios go belly up, and that is pilot activated lighting. I guess one could argue that landing lights should be enough, but I have had the experience once of having to land at night without landing lights or runway lighting (Believe it or not, both failed the same night!) and I found it very risky just faintly seeing the white line. I wouldn't do it again after the experience - I'd find an airport with functioning lights.

[davidsinn]

Sinking the Titanic was highly unlikely...

The Titanic sunk because the bulkheads were not sealed at the top. Water spilled over from one into the next and so on. Hardly a valid comparison to the G1000.

A complete electrical failure in a steam gauge aircraft presents the same problem.

I sort of agree with you - but not quite. Most steam gauge aircraft do not have a backup battery, which all G1000 aircraft have. This is going to give you an hour of electrical supply to get on the ground. So unless you have an electrical fire, there is more redundancy built into the G1000. And you also have two buses, so you can shut down the non essentials and preserve power, another thing steam gauge aircraft do not have. Garmin thought the system through well. It may not be perfect, but it is very good.

how many of y'all that have comm/nav handhelds have ever actually flown an approach with it?

Anyone who has tried to use one in a plane quickly realizes that it is more difficult than having comms through a headset. The solution is to have a cable that plugs into the transceiver and the other end into your headset. Many transceivers come with this and that's what I have. With the cable, there is no difference between that and regular panel mount radio, except maybe a bit more distraction changing frequencies.

I have had to use my transceiver when my alternator died at night in a turbo Mooney halfway between San Jose and Los Angeles and it worked like a champ with the cable. I shut off everything except some lights, pulled every non essential fuse and limped back with the transceiver. ATC was fine with me going through the Charlie without a transponder.

I can attest for one other handy use for the transceiver if your radios go belly up, and that is pilot activated lighting. I guess one could argue that landing lights should be enough, but I have had the experience once of having to land at night without landing lights or runway lighting (Believe it or not, both failed the same night!) and I found it very risky just faintly seeing the white line. I wouldn't do it again after the experience - I'd find an airport with functioning lights.

Remind me to never fly with you...You are a lighting rod for bad luck.

[sparks]

The G1000 standby battery is guaranteed to last 30 minutes not an hour although it may last that long depending on its' age and condition. That's why we have a condition test with that green light for 10 seconds during pre-flight for verification. The scenario depicted was if everything went dark what would the pilot have left to work with. Obviously if he was in a g1000 equipped bird the answer is at least 30 minutes of operating time.

I have used a handheld to communicate with ATC (no outside antenna) and found the range to be about 10 miles at 2500 AGL. Newer batteries, more altitude and an external antenna hookup would have increased the range. I also had the headset adapter  which is a big plus. Never used it for navigation but if a complete failure occurred ATC should help in that department assuming they are in range. 

[simon]

The G1000 standby battery is guaranteed to last 30 minutes not an hour

Ah yes, I was wondering if someone would pick up on the Cessna documentation "guarantee" vs. what the backup battery can actually do. Reality is it will last an hour. The reason is that the FSDO certifies G1000 182s for Part 135 operation. Part 135 requires "a standby battery or an alternate source of electric power that is capable of supplying 150 percent of the electrical loads of all required instruments and equipment necessary for safe emergency operation of the aircraft for at least one hour." FAR 135.163(f)(2)

This is a very stringent condition and assumes the worst case operating conditions. Note that the FAA has issued a special notice to this effect: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/notices/n8900_44.htm

A friend of mine in San Jose attained his own Part 135 certificate this year and the aircraft on the certificate is a 2008 C182. That says it is good for an hour.

So why does Cessna say 30 minutes? I don't know. One can only postulate that this is a conservative estimate in case the alternator dies, the main and standby batteries are old, the pilot keeps every light and the pitot on, can't land or get to VMC promptly and ends up in an accident. That's just a guess. Who knows. The FAA thinks its capacity is enough to carry paying passengers.

[blackrain]

Just out of curiosity, how many of y'all that have comm/nav handhelds have ever actually flown an approach with it?  Is it something you practice on any frequency?

Actually you touched on another point. I think it's great members aquire their own backup equipment but one advantage to CAP purchased equipment for everyone would be consistency of procedures/equipment and training from crew to crew and aircraft to aircraft.

[Flying Pig]

So I see CAWG has a G1000 down for maintenance.  Was on an ILS approach into SAC and both screens went blank for approx 20-25 seconds, then came back on.  Unk if they were actual or training.  What was that about the Titanic?

[sparks]

That is a worst case scenario, acreens going blank on an ILS in actual conditions (I realize they probably were VFR). It would be interesting to hear what maintenance determines was the problem. I suspect the G1000 memory retains default codes just for this purpose, just like most cars. If the screens were the problem and the comms still worked at least they still could talk to someone at SAC. That's not a scenario Cessna and CAP teaches or anticipates.