I just wanted to start a MO thread to get a feel for what others do. I just got rated a month or so ago and there are only two of us in my squadron. Any tips, hints, experiences anyone wants to share?
My CD application has been sent so I'm looking forward to that too, although finding out what kinds of missions that entails is like pulling teeth. I suspect that it's not discussed much for good reason.
Don't get too excited about doing CD stuff.
It takes months for your application to be approved, and the delay is not with CAP either.
Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2007, 03:24:28 AM
Don't get too excited about doing CD stuff.
It takes months for your application to be approved, and the delay is not with CAP either.
I know, I've heard. I'm not in a hurry.
Fly as often as you can and try to run as much of the equipment as you can every time you fly. Non-flying observers have a tough time keeping current unless you're in an area with lots of missions.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 30, 2007, 03:32:16 AM
Fly as often as you can and try to run as much of the equipment as you can every time you fly. Non-flying observers have a tough time keeping current unless you're in an area with lots of missions.
We have a plane and some good pilots in our sqdn so that should be easy. I try and make all of the SAREXs that I can, so I'm on the right track it seems.
You usually have to have atleast 2 years in CAP to apply for CD work. That has been the rule in our area. I have been an MO for the last 5 years and the best thing I could suggest is to be the MO and not the pilot. The MO is their to ease the pilots work. Know the radios and aircraft. Participate as much as possible, even if only for a flight. The CD flights can be monotinous and boring at times, but it only takes a turn to get pretty cool. I have enjoyed all of my CD flights.
I received my MO rating a few months ago and just recently completed the NESA Mission Aircrew School - my opinion (and its just that - an opinion) is that I although I held the MO rating before NESA, I had met only the MINIMUM requirements to function in that role.
After NESA I have a much larger perspective as a MO and as a critical part of the aircrew. I am capable of (and often do) functioning as the mission commander on a flight - which is the direction that the many at National are working towards.
I highly suggest that anyone who has not been to NESA MAS go for their appropriate track (MP or MO). In my Wing it buys you a lot of street cred as an Observer for sure.
I fly about 10-15 hours each and every month on State paid missions and I fly on every SAREX our Wing holds. I had to make a lot of phone calls up front to get my name and number imprinted in the mind of the flight scheduler.
I will point out that most of us, if we are honest, are pencil whipped through the scanner rating and we as Observers should try to raise the bar in our Wings for scanner training and sign off. I know MP's who have never even seen a slide of what a crash looks like (not that they should even be searching the ground but thats another topic).
IMHAO
Quote from: DHollywood on July 30, 2007, 07:20:37 PM
I received my MO rating a few months ago and just recently completed the NESA Mission Aircrew School - my opinion (and its just that - an opinion) is that I although I held the MO rating before NESA, I had met only the MINIMUM requirements to function in that role.
After NESA I have a much larger perspective as a MO and as a critical part of the aircrew. I am capable of (and often do) functioning as the mission commander on a flight - which is the direction that the many at National are working towards.
I highly suggest that anyone who has not been to NESA MAS go for their appropriate track (MP or MO). In my Wing it buys you a lot of street cred as an Observer for sure.
I fly about 10-15 hours each and every month on State paid missions and I fly on every SAREX our Wing holds. I had to make a lot of phone calls up front to get my name and number imprinted in the mind of the flight scheduler.
I will point out that most of us, if we are honest, are pencil whipped through the scanner rating and we as Observers should try to raise the bar in our Wings for scanner training and sign off. I know MP's who have never even seen a slide of what a crash looks like (not that they should even be searching the ground but thats another topic).
IMHAO
I'm sure that there are a few who have been "pencil-whipped" on along, but not all have. I was lucky enough to have a very knowledgeable MP with quite a few years of experience and training teach me one-on-one and we went through every task guide. A lot of it was common sense and/or easily explained, but it was much better than a classroom setting. You really don't get a good feel for it until you do it in the air too.
You're right about the hard part being scheduled to actually fly in that role. You might get bumped out of that seat if a pilot wants/needs it.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 30, 2007, 03:08:06 AM
...experiences anyone wants to share?
I really hate expanding square searches. I'm not one to get airsick, but those...let me tell you...
My final mission for my certification we were tasked to perform an expanding square search over an area. It was early in the morning and the air was still cool. However, about an hour into the flight, the sun had warmed the air quite rapidly, making for some interesting turbulance.
So we ended up with a lot of turbulance, many left hand turns, looking at maps, GPS, keeping log, monitoring DF equipment, comm and looking out the window - and the nausea was building.
I've done many proficiency training flights since then and have not had a problem with any of the other search patterns.
we do a lot of contour searches out in my area. Same problem with the nausea. The quart Ziploc bag is at the ready, clipped to the kneeboard. :D
I think that one of the most important things to do is..... MAKE SURE YOU are on the ALERTING LIST. Make yourself available to participate in the missions. Practice as much as you can via training, SAREX, or if your squadron has SDP. Being confident is a major factor, and condfdence only can caome after being in the aircraft participating.
If we can add to this, what are the tools of the trade?
I am just starting my scanner work and I want to start collecting now.
Also is there any reference material that is essential/useful/ or just plain nice to have?
Side note-
For the nausea, I get motion sickness really bad. But I can head it off if I take ginger root pills a few hours before. Its better than dramamine, non-drowsy, and herbal so there is no reason to fear the "drug" issue
Get a kneeboard from Sportys. I use and like this one (http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=1503&CATID=168), which is a great deal for under $10. It keeps my plotters, E6B, pen and pencil, notepad, post-it pad, and sectionals close at hand and ready in the cockpit.
Buy your own headset. There's no sense in depending on the MP or somebody else to pony up a spare headset for you, if you're going to fly regularly as an aircrew member. You don't need some crazy, active noise reduction Bose headset but remember it is also for your own comfort. I use and enjoy the Sigtronics S-40 (http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=1377&CATID=94).
Get and bring your own sectionals.
Learn to operate the GPS unit really well. If there are several different types of aircraft or GPS units in your area, get familiar with all of them. You'll be of little use to a mission if you show up at base, but can't be assigned to half of the aircraft because you don't know the GPS system in them. It takes continued use to be really proficient at all the submenus and dial turns or button pushes on the GPS unit, so just keep practicing.
Know how to plot your flight plan. Record appropriate frequencies at departing and destination airports as well as "in flight services" and keep them handy. Pre-program them into the radios as appropriate to keep them ready to switch over to.
The Mission Aircrew taskbook and Aircrew Guides are good places to start, as is a patient MP willing to teach. Practice, practice, practice.
Make sure you're useful in the cockpit and not just right-seat (or rear-seat) ballast. :)
Quote from: IceNine on November 06, 2007, 11:07:07 PM
If we can add to this, what are the tools of the trade?
I am just starting my scanner work and I want to start collecting now.
Also is there any reference material that is essential/useful/ or just plain nice to have?
I wouldn't mind hearing what other people include in their kits too. As a MS, my gear weighs 20 pounds, which seems excessive to me. I've got my headset, water bottle, flight guide / maps, minimal first aid kit, minimal survival items (knife, water purification, fire starter, etc), and camera. In the summer, that 20 pounds in the back can be a killer on the weight and balance calc. I'm just starting my MO training, so I would be interested to hear how that changes things if at all.
Quote from: rjacobs on November 07, 2007, 12:46:13 AM
Quote from: IceNine on November 06, 2007, 11:07:07 PM
If we can add to this, what are the tools of the trade?
I am just starting my scanner work and I want to start collecting now.
Also is there any reference material that is essential/useful/ or just plain nice to have?
I wouldn't mind hearing what other people include in their kits too. As a MS, my gear weighs 20 pounds, which seems excessive to me. I've got my headset, water bottle, flight guide / maps, minimal first aid kit, minimal survival items (knife, water purification, fire starter, etc), and camera. In the summer, that 20 pounds in the back can be a killer on the weight and balance calc. I'm just starting my MO training, so I would be interested to hear how that changes things if at all.
www.cap-es.net
There's a copy of the NESA In-Flight Guide on there that they gave us at NESA this year. It is as essential to my flight bag as my headset and kneeboard are. It's got everything you did, and didn't, want to know about Air SAR, including instructions on usage of the GX-series GPS's with the SARMap function, the KLN-series GPS's (found in newer 172s) and how to use them for SAR, and I believe there's a little bit on the ARNAV 5000 GPS as well (have only ever seen 1 plane with that type GPS in it, but they're out there, usually older 172s). Also has grids that you can stick on a photocopier and blow up so you can draw your patterns out, the matrix for gridding all US sectionals, and tons of other things. Every flight crew member should have one, especially the MO and MP.
As an MP, I look for my MO's to be able to do the following:
-Be proficient in the use of the aircraft's comm equipment, including comm panel, CAP radio, and VHF ATC radios.
-Be proficient in the use of DF equipment. As well, be proficient in communicating what you need from the bus driver (me) based on what your DF equipment is showing you.
-Be willing and able to assist with completion of checklists, using a challenge response method.
-Be proficient in reading and applying sectionals, to include location of position w/ pilotage. Be able to assist in navigation, including setting up the nav radios as needed.
-Be an active participant in the mission process. Ask questions during briefings, clarification where needed. Speak up if something doesn't seem right, you'd rather try things another way, or need suggestions/help on something. Trying to guess might get you the right answer, but also might waste time when a solution could have been easily found.
-Be familiar with the aircraft, and how it works. If you're not a pilot, take a pinch hitter course. When we're en route to/from the grid, ask to play with the controls a little bit. Pilots love nothing more then talking about flying, and will be glad to explain the basics of how it works. I personally make sure every MO I train gets their hands on the controls, and can at least do straight and level flight, understands coordinated turns, and understands how to slow the plane down if needed. You never know when a bird is gonna come through the windshield and hit me, or when you may be flying with a more experiened (older) pilot, and something happens.
-Don't be afraid to challenge me or any other pilot or crewmember if you don't think something is right. There's of course, a time and place for it, but if it's something is very wrong, especially something hazardous to the flight, call a knock off and be adamant until it is fixed or in the process of being fixed. Take an active role with this safety aspect, cuz it's your life too. If you're feeling woozy, let me know. I'd rather have you puke into a toilet on the not moving ground then to try and make it into a ziploc bag in a moving aircraft. Don't try to tough it out, your health matters to me as a member of my crew.
-Most importantly, don't ever stop learning. Keep asking questions, learn about the new toys, how they work, etc. Especially with the G1000 systems, they're a whole new ballgame when it comes to SAR.
Please just promise that you actually try to learn what an observer is supposed to do. I have flown with many an observer who did the 2 sorties required and, didn't know how to do anything. The other issue is not practicing your skill set. I find many an observer who can operate the DF, GPS or CAP radio's. Its almost like I am back in single pilot freight days.
I am not bashing all observers but, a majority of seem to fit this model. Remember you are there to assist the MP and, make my job easier.
PS- I love how NESA/NHQ CAP is wanting the MO to be a "mission commander", it ain't going to happen, not until an observer trains/maintains the level of proficiency of a pilot
I find many an observer who can operate the DF, GPS or CAP radio's. Its almost like I am back in single pilot freight days.
I am not bashing all observers but, a majority of seem to fit this model. Remember you are there to assist the MP and, make my job easier.
I beleive that your job is to fly the aircraft. I wholeheartly agree that the MO should be proficient at DF GPS and CAP, Nav Comm and all electronic components. But, MY job is not to make your life easier, in the sense of flying the Aircraft.
Adding to the fact that I am looking out the windows, where you should not be other then where we are flying to. It is not my position as some MP's think to have me call your turns a half mile prior to.
My point was this, I have flown many a mission where besides driving the bus, I am showing the observer how to operate the GPS, CAP Radio, take notes, plot merges on a sectional, and DF. I believe that MO's are supposed to be proficient in operating that equipment/doing those tasks? or am I wrong?
Yes, my only job as an MP is to fly the darn plane but, I spend more time doing the MO's job then he/she is. This in turn makes my job a heck of a lot harder. I would rather just worry about not hitting mother earth!! Is this right no, that's why I was saying learn how to operate the equipment/practice with it. I have the GX55 simulator on my computer, along with the DF simulator. I break them out every now and then to practice.
Its just frustrating when I get into an aircraft with a "seasoned" MO who doesn't know how to operate the equipment and, yes I have RTB'd, then switched out MO's. Also, one would think that when you fly with a Check Pilot you would bring your "A" game but, most don't.
JMHO and observations
Quote from: SJFedor on November 07, 2007, 01:27:46 AM
Quote from: rjacobs on November 07, 2007, 12:46:13 AM
Quote from: IceNine on November 06, 2007, 11:07:07 PM
If we can add to this, what are the tools of the trade?
I am just starting my scanner work and I want to start collecting now.
Also is there any reference material that is essential/useful/ or just plain nice to have?
I wouldn't mind hearing what other people include in their kits too. As a MS, my gear weighs 20 pounds, which seems excessive to me. I've got my headset, water bottle, flight guide / maps, minimal first aid kit, minimal survival items (knife, water purification, fire starter, etc), and camera. In the summer, that 20 pounds in the back can be a killer on the weight and balance calc. I'm just starting my MO training, so I would be interested to hear how that changes things if at all.
www.cap-es.net
There's a copy of the NESA In-Flight Guide on there that they gave us at NESA this year. It is as essential to my flight bag as my headset and kneeboard are. It's got everything you did, and didn't, want to know about Air SAR, including instructions on usage of the GX-series GPS's with the SARMap function, the KLN-series GPS's (found in newer 172s) and how to use them for SAR, and I believe there's a little bit on the ARNAV 5000 GPS as well (have only ever seen 1 plane with that type GPS in it, but they're out there, usually older 172s). Also has grids that you can stick on a photocopier and blow up so you can draw your patterns out, the matrix for gridding all US sectionals, and tons of other things. Every flight crew member should have one, especially the MO and MP.
As an MP, I look for my MO's to be able to do the following:
-Be proficient in the use of the aircraft's comm equipment, including comm panel, CAP radio, and VHF ATC radios.
-Be proficient in the use of DF equipment. As well, be proficient in communicating what you need from the bus driver (me) based on what your DF equipment is showing you.
-Be willing and able to assist with completion of checklists, using a challenge response method.
-Be proficient in reading and applying sectionals, to include location of position w/ pilotage. Be able to assist in navigation, including setting up the nav radios as needed.
-Be an active participant in the mission process. Ask questions during briefings, clarification where needed. Speak up if something doesn't seem right, you'd rather try things another way, or need suggestions/help on something. Trying to guess might get you the right answer, but also might waste time when a solution could have been easily found.
-Be familiar with the aircraft, and how it works. If you're not a pilot, take a pinch hitter course. When we're en route to/from the grid, ask to play with the controls a little bit. Pilots love nothing more then talking about flying, and will be glad to explain the basics of how it works. I personally make sure every MO I train gets their hands on the controls, and can at least do straight and level flight, understands coordinated turns, and understands how to slow the plane down if needed. You never know when a bird is gonna come through the windshield and hit me, or when you may be flying with a more experiened (older) pilot, and something happens.
-Don't be afraid to challenge me or any other pilot or crewmember if you don't think something is right. There's of course, a time and place for it, but if it's something is very wrong, especially something hazardous to the flight, call a knock off and be adamant until it is fixed or in the process of being fixed. Take an active role with this safety aspect, cuz it's your life too. If you're feeling woozy, let me know. I'd rather have you puke into a toilet on the not moving ground then to try and make it into a ziploc bag in a moving aircraft. Don't try to tough it out, your health matters to me as a member of my crew.
-Most importantly, don't ever stop learning. Keep asking questions, learn about the new toys, how they work, etc. Especially with the G1000 systems, they're a whole new ballgame when it comes to SAR.
I agree with your list except for the first one. YOU as PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO. The MO may not be a pilot. Seperate your duties. In the LE aviation world, the PIC talks to ATC and the Tactical Flight Officer (Observer) Talks to the police on the ground. Same should be in CAP. The PIC talks to ATC and the MO talks to CAP resources
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 07, 2007, 06:01:47 PM
I agree with your list except for the first one. YOU as PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO. The MO may not be a pilot. Seperate your duties. In the LE aviation world, the PIC talks to ATC and the Tactical Flight Officer (Observer) Talks to the police on the ground. Same should be in CAP. The PIC talks to ATC and the MO talks to CAP resources
I also agree that the PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO.
As far as getting an MO that's not all that good, I have to admit that I may be one of those. I try to get up in a plane every chance I get, but for the past year plus, I've been in a squadron without a plane. Prior to coming here, I was certainly proficient in all my tasks, but the longer I go without actively practicing these tasks, the worse I become at it. So for those new scanners/observers, go fly every single chance you get. Don't just do the 2 flights for qualifying.
Quote from: jeders on November 07, 2007, 06:15:31 PMI also agree that the PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO.
As far as getting an MO that's not all that good, I have to admit that I may be one of those. I try to get up in a plane every chance I get, but for the past year plus, I've been in a squadron without a plane. Prior to coming here, I was certainly proficient in all my tasks, but the longer I go without actively practicing these tasks, the worse I become at it. So for those new scanners/observers, go fly every single chance you get. Don't just do the 2 flights for qualifying.
I agree with you on that subject, it's probably that I took your statement about the cargo plane driver the wrong way.
I beleive that you should simply fly. If that can not be accompliished, I agree RTB and get a new one.
But, I have been on flights with MP's and they require me to call turns and radio ATC and etc.
This is the point that I wanted to make, we each have positions. Each differant tasks to accomplish. Should I not accomplish mine in a manner that you do not like. Talk it out in the aircraft, but if no understanding RTB.
We all need missions to stay current, all be it in the form of trainiing evaul or actual. It is nice to fly when you would like.
--Edited to fix quote tags --MK
Since no one has posted here in 5 months (since Nov '07) it is possible that no one will read it, but for those already qualified MO's here is a link to some of the Observer training aids and classes on the WA Wing Aircrew Training Page. Two classes on that page that current and qualified observers may find useful are the Mission Observer Self Proficiency Program (Listed on the web page as Observer Program) and the High Bird Manual.
http://wawg.cap.gov/members/training/Aircrew%20Training/aid/act.html
Hope this helps your personal training.
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 07, 2007, 06:01:47 PM
I agree with your list except for the first one. YOU as PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO. The MO may not be a pilot. Seperate your duties. In the LE aviation world, the PIC talks to ATC and the Tactical Flight Officer (Observer) Talks to the police on the ground. Same should be in CAP. The PIC talks to ATC and the MO talks to CAP resources
It is good to have the option of MO talking to ATC. LE aviation may do things differently because they are talking to people on the ground almost constantly, but for most other professional flight crews one flies and the other talks to ATC.
If I have a MO who is a pilot, I usually have them talking to ATC, unless they are working the CAP radio. If a non-pilot MO is willing to learn how, I see no reason why they couldn't talk to ATC so long as the pilot is monitoring. It's just part of good CRM.
Quote from: CAPObserver on April 08, 2008, 03:08:26 AM
Since no one has posted here in 5 months (since Nov '07) it is possible that no one will read it, but for those already qualified MO's here is a link to some of the Observer training aids and classes on the WA Wing Aircrew Training Page. Two classes on that page that current and qualified observers may find useful are the Mission Observer Self Proficiency Program (Listed on the web page as Observer Program) and the High Bird Manual.
http://wawg.cap.gov/members/training/Aircrew%20Training/aid/act.html
Hope this helps your personal training.
It looks like some good material. More stuff to save to the thumb drive.
Quote from: Frenchie on April 08, 2008, 03:48:47 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 07, 2007, 06:01:47 PM
I agree with your list except for the first one. YOU as PIC should be talking to ATC, not the MO. The MO may not be a pilot. Seperate your duties. In the LE aviation world, the PIC talks to ATC and the Tactical Flight Officer (Observer) Talks to the police on the ground. Same should be in CAP. The PIC talks to ATC and the MO talks to CAP resources
It is good to have the option of MO talking to ATC. LE aviation may do things differently because they are talking to people on the ground almost constantly, but for most other professional flight crews one flies and the other talks to ATC.
If I have a MO who is a pilot, I usually have them talking to ATC, unless they are working the CAP radio. If a non-pilot MO is willing to learn how, I see no reason why they couldn't talk to ATC so long as the pilot is monitoring. It's just part of good CRM.
What you're talking about is PF and PNF. thats good for bigger Jet aircraft, but Cessnas are single pilot operations. talking on the the radio to ATC is normal workload for the pilot. I mean what else is he doing besides flying? He shouldnt be looking for the objective. He should be doing normal duties that a Cessna 172 or 182 pilot should be doing. Aviate, Navigate , and Communicate. Thats all normal ops for a single engine pilot.
Seems like someone just got through with basic indoc, systems, CRM and such. The PF/PM duties can be incorporated into CAP but, would include a lot of training. It would also require a paradigm shift for most of our pilots. Unfortunately, most won't be able to handle the change.
I am all for MO's to do more as long as they are properly trained and proficient. I would love to just have to worry about flying the plane.
PS-how is Mesa treating you? Whats the feeling over there since Delta cut your Freedom flying?
Curious in terms of paperwork/and reference text what Mission Observers and Scanners are carrying. I've got the in-flight guide, MART and MART Appendix 2 'Flight Guide' all on my computer. Trying to decide what I should print exactly and what everyone's using for binding/size, etc.
Thanks
Quote from: VETTE277 on June 08, 2009, 12:47:51 AM
Curious in terms of paperwork/and reference text what Mission Observers and Scanners are carrying. I've got the in-flight guide, MART and MART Appendix 2 'Flight Guide' all on my computer. Trying to decide what I should print exactly and what everyone's using for binding/size, etc.
Thanks
IFG in reduced size, on cardstock for longer life. I think mine is 5.5"x8" and bound so i can flip it open. You don't need the MART if you have the IFG, as the MART is more of the academic teachings of aircrew work, while the IFG is designed as, get ready for this, an in flight reference book.
I also keep a folder in my flight bag with a dozen 104s, 3 blank weight/balance planning sheets for each aircraft i'm qualified to fly (172, 182(all), GA-8), a dozen ORM sheets, and some full size planning sheets from the back of the MART.
You print yourself or have it done somewhere ?
I didn't like the provided worksheets in the MART/IFG so I made my own. Any feed back (anything missing, wrong, etc. ) ? Download it http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f70693da418283b0d956df2962098fcbe04e75f6e8ebb871 (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f70693da418283b0d956df2962098fcbe04e75f6e8ebb871)
When I say worksheets, I mean the search area planning sheets for parallel (grid), creeping line, expanding square, et al.
I like the sheet you made, it's good but not very effective for a kneeboard.
The fine staff at NESA-MAS my basic year (2007) gave us the option of having the semi-decent ones that the school provided, or kick in 4 or 5 bucks and get some good, quality lasting ones printed from fedex/kinkos or something like it on some good card stock.
I think every person in the class bought one.
I certainly would have liked to attend MAS this year, but other activities conflict unfortunately. I made the worksheet probably for me more than anything else, what makes it impractical for the kneeboard ? I didn't try to scale it down to kneeboard size yet, dunno it it's still practical then. Thanks!
Quote from: VETTE277 on June 08, 2009, 03:23:22 PM
I certainly would have liked to attend MAS this year, but other activities conflict unfortunately. I made the worksheet probably for me more than anything else, what makes it impractical for the kneeboard ? I didn't try to scale it down to kneeboard size yet, dunno it it's still practical then. Thanks!
Just that right now it's still 8.5"x11" which is bigger then most kneeboards.
What matters is that it works for you. As long as you've got a way to keep yourself organized and in tune with the mission, you can use just about whatever you want :)
If you print them 2-up, they will be knee board sized.