Alternate Uniforms

Started by MIKE, January 11, 2008, 03:53:44 AM

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Alternate uniforms for new cadets is a:

good idea.  Uniformity is a must.
15 (34.9%)
waste of time.  Get them in a "real uniform" faster.
16 (37.2%)
Huh? Alternate "Uniform"?
7 (16.3%)
Why isn't this in the Uniform section?
5 (11.6%)

Total Members Voted: 43

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Eclipse

A necessary evil for all but the few units with fully-stocked uniform cabinets who don't have to wait for
NHQ.

Getting cadets into the mindset, if not the actual cloth is important.

"That Others May Zoom"

ZigZag911

The only thing I could see doing is if the unit had a "PT uniform", have the new cadets get that first, faster because no insignia....it is, however, an added expense, unless units found a donor source.

pixelwonk

Where is the "I poke you in the eye for creating another poll" option?

What's your motive behind the question?  I'm curious, as it would most likely affect how I'd vote.


MIKE

Quote from: tedda on January 11, 2008, 04:15:08 AM
What's your motive behind the question?  I'm curious, as it would most likely affect how I'd vote.

I have an opinion, not sure I would call it a motive... but this is what drove me to poll:

Quote from: brasda91 on January 11, 2008, 03:33:04 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2008, 06:04:36 PM
Until the uniform is >complete<, the cadets should wear the alternate.

Not every squadron has an alternate uniform.
Mike Johnston

pixelwonk

Pardon me; I didn't meant to suggest any nefariousness.  It was an alternate choice of words. :D

Apart from the FCU program and even with hand-me-down BDUs, the cadet's family is still gonna be shelling out a significant amount of money to get their troop squared away.
If the uniform isn't complete, it doesn't seem unreasonable to instruct and expect the C/AB to show up in a ironed white shirt and a pair of pressed khakis, black pants, whatever.

A whole "official" uniform on the other hand... what for?

CASH172

Well I would not make a mandatory nation-wide dress code.  A unit commander can reasonably come up with a good alternate uniform until the cadet gets squared away.   

BlackKnight

There are plenty of new skills to master in the training flight while a cadet works on assembling their regular uniform (blues, BDUs, or both).  Customs & courtesies, drill, CAP history, respect for the flag, intro to AE, moral leadership, punctuality, and grooming (haircuts, makeup, etc.).   Adding an "alternate uniform" to wear for 4-8 weeks seems like a pointless exercise.  Best to help them to get into the regular uniform as soon as possible. 

I might be biased. The training flight alternate uniform concept reminds me of the silly beanie caps that freshmen used to have to wear at my college alma mater.  It's a way of visually reminding everyone these cadets are doolies, not yet accepted as regular members of the squadron.
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

Pylon

We tried the black t-shirt and jeans thing.  That looked... "okay".   My cadet commander suggested switching out the jeans for BDU pants (since we have hundreds in squadron stock) and black sneakers or boots.  Looks a lot better, IMHO.  They also look like they "fit" the part of cadets in training/new recruits.

We make it clear it's not a uniform, they're only wearing this for orientation, and they can't wear the blouse or CAP insignia, etc.

I don't see a need to mandate this nationally, at least for now.  What works in one squadron may not fit well for another.  One squadron's environment might make khakis and a white dress shirt the best option and at another's - the black shirt and jeans.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

MIKE

Quote from: tedda on January 11, 2008, 05:10:07 AMIf the uniform isn't complete, it doesn't seem unreasonable to instruct and expect the C/AB to show up in a ironed white shirt and a pair of pressed khakis, black pants, whatever.

A whole "official" uniform on the other hand... what for?

This is what we are talking about.  Units that say wear X type of shirt and Y type of pants so you are "uniform" with the other FNGs... Versus wear appropriate civilian attire. i.e. something you could wear to your average public school and not get sent home... and we'll worry about uniformity when you actually get a uniform.
Mike Johnston

Gunner C

When I was a cadet we had nothing except white shirts, ties, and dark pants.  It was a couple of months before everyone had a uniform (we were a new unit).  Once we got going and got an assortment of blues, everyone got in uniform.

I think an alternate uniform for the new cadets is the way to go.

GC

AlphaSigOU

Way back WIWAC when dinosaurs roamed the earth (about 30 years ago), Florida Wing came up with an alternate uniform for cadets below the grade of C/Sgt - the dreaded SMURF SUIT!!!! (Run to the hills... run for your life!  ;D)

It was intended as a transition uniform for new cadets, with relaxed grooming requirements. Cadets could wear their achievement ribbons (at the time the ugly plastic-encased ones) over the CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape. Headgear was an uglier-looking plain 'gimme cap' (aka baseball cap with plastic adjusting strap and mesh back). Once a cadet promoted to C/SSgt, he or she had to ditch the jumpsuit for blues and follow grooming standards

Luckily, both my younger brother and I skipped on having to wear that abomination, since we had transferred from Georgia Wing - which did not have such a uniform - and were already used to wearing blues. Plus - if I remember correctly - there was already a grandfather clause allowing current cadets below C/Sgt to wear blues. Only new cadinks suffered through that indignity. Not to mention the 'happy pocket gaposis' accidentally exposing young cadet unmentionables if one did not adjust them correctly when sitting down. (I'm not sure if those pockets were fixed in later iterations of the 'Smurf Suit'.)

The blue jumpsuit option for cadinks eventually died a slow death; by the early 1980s that option was phased out in Florida Wing.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Stonewall

Not 100% I understand the question, but I think it has something to do with new cadets in a "T-Flight" of sorts and wearing an alternate uniform such as blue jeans and polo shirts.  Am I right?  If so....

Yes, it's a must.  I have never let my cadets wear part of a uniform.  Meaning, if they got their BDU tops/bottom, I wouldn't let them wear any of it until they got boots, hat, insignia.  And, I wouldn't let just one of the new cadets wear a complete uniform until all of them had it.

It reminds me of the "turning blue" ceremony at infantry school, where we got our blue infantry cords.  It's a right of passage in a way.

I've done two things:

Blue jeans, belt and black t-shirts (since we wear black under BDUs)

Blue jeans, belt, collared polo or long-sleeve shirt depending on weather.  This way they got an understanding for being well-dressed, thus looking like a better part of society as well as dressing appropriately in lieu of a uniform.

One option we did allow, is if they got their boots, they could wear those to help break them in.
Serving since 1987.

mikeylikey

I have a stash of CAP Polo's in various sizes, used to hand it over to the new Cadet, tell them to wear it to meetings with Khaki's.  (Oh my, did I start that trend?) Once they got their "free" blues and we outfitted them with BDU's we took back the polo, washed of course.   ;)
What's up monkeys?

MIKE

Quote from: Stonewall on January 14, 2008, 05:14:47 PM
I have never let my cadets wear part of a uniform.

It is not about wearing incomplete uniforms... It is about those t-shirt and jeans etc alternate "uniforms" versus come as you are normal civies.
Mike Johnston

Stonewall

Quote from: MIKE on January 14, 2008, 05:41:42 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on January 14, 2008, 05:14:47 PM
I have never let my cadets wear part of a uniform.

It is not about wearing incomplete uniforms... It is about those t-shirt and jeans etc alternate "uniforms" versus come as you are normal civies.

Well then, yes.  It is an absolute.  And whether folks think I'm a uniform nazi or think I run a boot camp style cadet program, it's the right thing to do. 
Serving since 1987.

Maj Ballard

#16
We have tried it both ways. We used to have new cadets just wear "appropriate civilian attire." In our most recent training group, we had them wear a black t-shirt, jeans with a belt, and sneakers or combat boots.

About three weeks into training, we had them "earn" their squadron t-shirt and hat by completing an all-day aerospace/uniform/drill training field day.

From the beginning, we require a haircut/hairstyle that meets regs. This especially helps the young women, who are often just learning to put their hair up for the first time.

They all wear their complete blues uniform together on week six, at which time they're promoted, getting awards, etc.

In our unit, it worked great. The new cadets felt like they were a part of a group... a team. It created an environment of uniformity. Everyone already had a black t-shirt and jeans, so it didn't present any financial hardship. They were all dressed alike, got their uniforms issued together, sewed on their patches the same week, etc. and wore *correct, complete* uniforms together.

We plan to keep the policy going forward.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

DC

I really don't see the point in wasting time on an alternate uniform. I try to get my new cadets into uniforms ASAP, and we usually accomplish it within 3 to 4 weeks.

We currently just ask new cadets to wear decent casual civvies, a decent t-shirt and plain jeans. We are working on a new design for a squadron shirt, which we will then require.

We have a fairly decent stock of used blues, our biggest problem is getting the accoutriements, cadets (or their parents) wait for forever to place their order, then it seems to take an eternity to get the items..

We are going to soon launch a T-Flight program, where we will have cadets dress in the aforementioned SQ T-shirt and jeans, then we will get them into BDUs, have a weekend mini-encampment like bivouac, then hopefully families will have had time to size and fit blues, as well as get all of the items for them. After six to eight weeks we will have a graduation/promotion ceremony with the cadets in their blues.

Maj Ballard

Quote from: Delta Charlie on January 16, 2008, 08:37:10 PM
I really don't see the point in wasting time on an alternate uniform. I try to get my new cadets into uniforms ASAP, and we usually accomplish it within 3 to 4 weeks.

We currently just ask new cadets to wear decent casual civvies, a decent t-shirt and plain jeans. We are working on a new design for a squadron shirt, which we will then require.

We have a fairly decent stock of used blues, our biggest problem is getting the accoutriements, cadets (or their parents) wait for forever to place their order, then it seems to take an eternity to get the items..

We are going to soon launch a T-Flight program, where we will have cadets dress in the aforementioned SQ T-shirt and jeans, then we will get them into BDUs, have a weekend mini-encampment like bivouac, then hopefully families will have had time to size and fit blues, as well as get all of the items for them. After six to eight weeks we will have a graduation/promotion ceremony with the cadets in their blues.

Good luck with that.

Just as a reminder, it's a good idea to consult with (and learn from the mistakes/successes of) other squadrons and leaders in your area. ;)
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

flyguy06

If you require a Squadron T-shirt, do the cadets have to purchase  it or does the unit provide the required item?

Maj Ballard

Along with their dues check that we mail to NHQ, we ask parents to write the squadron a check for $30. That money pays for a squadron t-shirt, squadron hat, blues cap device, CAP cutouts, nameplate, CAP tapes, nametapes, Wing patch for BDUs, flag patch, etc. We place the orders for all of the "accoutrements" so that they all arrive at the same time and the correct things get ordered. Most parents appreciate us ordering everything for them like this.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

capchiro

One can not "require" an alternate uniform unless it is provided for free or is optional (which also means not "required").  This is out of the Reg's and not really up for debate.  It always intrigues me that some folks want to enforce certain parts of the Reg's but not all of the Reg's.  Since when can commanders decide to pick and choose??
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Maj Ballard

#22
If you total up the cost of all the things I mentioned were included in the $30, you'll notice that the squadron t-shirt and hat really do not cost the cadet anything.

I have also NEVER run into a cadet who did not have a black t-shirt and jeans. All we do is make the "appropriate civilian attire" the same color. Not too complicated.

Sir, I always see you jump in the "required uniform" discussion when it arises. Do your cadets always wear blues? How about shoes, since shoes aren't provided? Do you have a vast supply of BDUs? Just curious.

L. Ballard, Major, CAP

capchiro

It probably has to do with my legal background and my angst over Reg's that set commanders up for difficulties and repremand.  By constantly pointing out a Reg that is wrong or doesn't work or is in conflict with other Reg's or policy, I am hoping someone will eventually wake up and make the changes that are needed to facilitate the program.  Perhaps my moniker should be "dilemmas are us".  I just don't feel comfortable telling parents that although the Reg's say the only uniform required is the Blues, your cadet will need to purchase another outfit for $100-150 to participate.  I also know that a lot of Wings are not utilizing the DRMO facility to obtain BDU's, etc., that we could use.  Frustration is a large factor in my madness.  I also don't like lower ranking officers being led to believe that the Reg's can be interpreted as desired.  Plus this Reg is the one that is so often violated and so easy to point out.  A lot of other Reg's are more difficult to interpret and therefore there is more room for debate.  If one is willing to violate this Reg, will they not violate another Reg, perhaps one dealing with Safety?  If the upper echelon or powers that are to be are setting members up for failure, there is a problem, and this Reg is one of the ones that so easily demonstrates this.  We harp on our cadets about integrity and yet anyone of them could point to this and ask how integrity works with this Reg.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Ned

Quote from: capchiro on January 17, 2008, 07:15:03 PMI am hoping someone will eventually wake up and make the changes that are needed to facilitate the program. 

Like?

NHQ does listen.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Adviser

Maj Ballard

DRMO doesn't have BDUs anymore from what I understand.

But yeah, I definitely see your point. We never tell a cadet that something is "required" in that regard. Rather we say to them and their parents, "Here are the uniforms that our cadets wear. The squadron will do its best to supply you with what we have, but there may be some items you'll need to purchase if your son/daughter wants to participate in certain activities."

I think it's really important to let parents know on the front end that CAP isn't a "cheap" organization to join. Regardless what is "required," in order for their son or daughter to get the most out of their time as a cadet, it's likely that significant time/financial contribution may be required of them and their family. If we don't set a realistic expectation from the beginning, there's likely to be a lot of disappointment in the future. (Of course it goes without saying that we always do what we can to minimize the cost to cadets of anything we do.)

For now, I think that's about the best anyone can do, given the fact that so many cadet activities "require" different uniforms than are issued. On the rare occasion that we've had a cadet with significant financial constraints, either the squadron or benevolent senior members helped out with costs quietly.

Back to the topic of the t-flight "alternate" uniform, we specifically chose the clothing combination that we did because everyone has it. We did have one cadet whose only black t-shirt said "Jackson Hole" or something on it, and we let her wear that because it wasn't offensive or obtrusive. In our squadron, it only really affects three meetings anyway, since we then issue the squadron shirt.

YMMV.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

flyguy06

Quote from: capchiro on January 17, 2008, 05:58:47 PM
One can not "require" an alternate uniform unless it is provided for free or is optional (which also means not "required").  This is out of the Reg's and not really up for debate.  It always intrigues me that some folks want to enforce certain parts of the Reg's but not all of the Reg's.  Since when can commanders decide to pick and choose??

remember though that Commanders canadd to but not take away from the Regs. If we al just ran CAP by biooks and regs then there really would be no reason for Commanders. Different units have differnt situations and we have to add the human factor in it. We can just live by words alone. They dont even do that inthe military. You have to be able to be flexible.

I agree about having a alternate uniform for newbies. It promotes unit cohesion and if you explain it to the parents when they first join in I think most of them will be for it. It sets your Squadron aside from others and there is nothing wrong with that. It promotes unity within the Squadron.

Stonewall

Quote from: capchiro on January 17, 2008, 05:58:47 PM
One can not "require" an alternate uniform unless it is provided for free or is optional (which also means not "required").  This is out of the Reg's and not really up for debate.  It always intrigues me that some folks want to enforce certain parts of the Reg's but not all of the Reg's.  Since when can commanders decide to pick and choose??

A dress code such as a collared shirt is not requiring someone to buy and wear an alternate uniform.  I've got more than a 100 T-Flight graduates under my belt who will agree that having a set standard "uniform" during their initial training (approx 8 weeks) is beneficial to team cohesion.  Trust me, mandate new cadets to wear certain attire, be a black or white tshirt or simply a collared shirt, both with plain jeans, and they'll mold better, stand taller, and act more like military cadets. 

Let them show up with their pants hanging down their arse, a XXXXL EMINEM shirt hanging down their knees, or one of those funny shirts they sell at Wal-Mart for $9 that has a picture of a squirrel with a bat that says "Protect Your Nuts" (I've seen it during an open house), and they'll act like wanna-be gang bangers like they do at school.  Bring them into an environment of discipline and standards and you'll see different posture and attitudes.  I've proven this time and time again.
Serving since 1987.

notaNCO forever

At our squadron we have cadets were dress pants and a button up shirt until they can get there uniform. We are also lucky enough to have lots of BDU's and blues to issue to get cadets so they can get there uniform quick. :D

Michael

NCO Forever's idea seemed fine.

We tried having civilian clothes nights about a year ago.  It was chaos.  Discipline, customs & courtesies, and overall organization were all down, right off the bat.

I say stick to the BDU's.
Bill Coons, C/Capt

Maj Ballard

I don't think anyone's advocating doing away with BDUs. The issue we're discussing is what to do with new cadets BEFORE they have uniform to wear.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

Michael

Bill Coons, C/Capt