When was the point where CAP rank ceased actually being rank?

[Spam]

Thats not nothing.

It's not much, though, since it's really just paper suggestions that are largely
ignored (or of which Unit leaders are unaware).

On top of which, cadet "authority" is, for the most part, just a fiction anyway
of the leadership training aspect of the CP.

Hi Eclipse,

small issue here, that I respectfully disagree only in that cadets do have delegated authority, wherein the responsibility still resides with the Unit Commander. Doctrinally, this is compared by example to our elected government: we vote for a representative who has delegated authority, but we as the electorate still have the responsibility for having put these people into office (to our shame, often times, right). Same with the analogy of a babysitter, where the babysitter has authority delegated by the responsible parent.

This is a significant learning objective within the CP that I feel we often overlook (with adults also).

R/s
Spam

Ref:
1. CAPP 52-15 Cadet Staff Handbook, on delegation of authority, and taking responsibility.
2. CAP Unit Commanders Course module on Delegation:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Delegating_Authority_20181203_1_3130DBB541042.pdf

[Jester]

This is a self-induced issue.  If you want to treat your rank structure like a Pokemon game where you just gotta catch 'em all, that's on you.

I look at it as if you're going to do what it takes to move up, you desire to function at that level.  I'm going to treat you like a Lt Col and expect you to function on that level.  If you want to be a Lt Col and never leave the squadron or take command, you should have topped out at 1st Lt. 

I've seen NCOs be denied a promotion because the group HQ already had its complement of SMSgts (1) filled.  That member had to find somewhere else to go if they wanted to promote.  But I guarantee a captain wanting to promote to major would never have such a silly standard applied to them. 

I conduct myself as a SNCO.  I expect others to do the same at their grade.  If they can't or won't, that's on them.  If the expectation and culture in your unit is similar, people will rise to meet it.

It's not karate belts, folks.

[TheSkyHornet]

This is a self-induced issue.  If you want to treat your rank structure like a Pokemon game where you just gotta catch 'em all, that's on you.

I look at it as if you're going to do what it takes to move up, you desire to function at that level.  I'm going to treat you like a Lt Col and expect you to function on that level.  If you want to be a Lt Col and never leave the squadron or take command, you should have topped out at 1st Lt. 

I've seen NCOs be denied a promotion because the group HQ already had its complement of SMSgts (1) filled.  That member had to find somewhere else to go if they wanted to promote.  But I guarantee a captain wanting to promote to major would never have such a silly standard applied to them. 

I conduct myself as a SNCO.  I expect others to do the same at their grade.  If they can't or won't, that's on them.  If the expectation and culture in your unit is similar, people will rise to meet it.

It's not karate belts, folks.

I totally agree in the "earn it" approach.

I will say that it can be difficult to treat this as a "go find somewhere else to build up that rank." It's not a paid contract with a stipend or relocation reimbursement. It's not feasible for most CAP personnel to pack up and move to a new wing every 4 years. Though it tries to be like active duty, CAP is much more like the national guard; and you're going to see those 15-year "never promoted because" guys.

That all said, I completely stand by the expectations tied to one's grade. I also have high expectations of those appointed into command roles; most of whom volunteered for them and were not begged to step in. I'm also one to take a look at someone's eServices profile and look at when they joined CAP and what their progression track has been as well as their participation at squadron meetings and other activities. If you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

[Eclipse]

It's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.

Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

People who are Commanders, command. No officers, no NCOs, nada.

Pilots are pilots, staff are staff.  Period.

Leave the cadets as-is.

Done.

Without the grade insignia the USAF might have less heartburn about uniform wear,
and you'd likely know who your real assets are in a year as the ones in it for the
bling leave in droves.

[N6RVT]

It's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

Unfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it.  The current system lets them become field grade officers without giving them any actual authority and they walk around paying dues and keeping the member numbers up.

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

If you take military grade away you will lose enough of the membership the organization will no longer function, even though you probably will not lose a significant number of the people who actually do anything.

[TheSkyHornet]

It's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

Unfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it.  The current system lets them become field grade officers without giving them any actual authority and they walk around paying dues and keeping the member numbers up.

The member dues are great. The paper rosters are totally pointless except to put out a hand and ask for more money for our "xx-thousand members serving nationwide."

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Such as?

If you take military grade away you will lose enough of the membership the organization will no longer function, even though you probably will not lose a significant number of the people who actually do anything.

I don't disagree here at all. I think a large number of our members are here because they want that military feel.

Okay, so if we completely disbanded the entire grade/promotion system tomorrow, and we waited 10 years, what would the rosters look like? I definitely think we'd lose a ton of members who feel that they earned their grade (and they're not wrong, given that they had to MOSTLY work through the professional development system to get there). But would anyone care newly joining tomorrow? You'd probably have a few that are like "Nope, this doesn't have that vibe that I'm looking for." But on scale?

We do a lot of Cadet Programs surveys (in fact there's one in my inbox right now). I don't often see senior member surveys asking us about uniform wear and the ranking system. I don't recall ever seeing the option "Because I want to wear a military-style uniform and wear military rank" in the Why did you join/why do you stay? survey. Are we afraid of the results? That maybe a lot more of our members actually do care about that than we want it to be?

[Ned]

Unfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it. 

Non-concur, from my experience, but obviously there is no data to support either of our positions.

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Which mirrors my military experience fairly closely.  While I certainly had command time, the great majority of my time as a military field grade officer was in staff billets.  I think we keep a five-sided warehouse crammed full of field grade staff officers near Washington somewhere.

And just like CAP, military staff officers have no special inherent authority.  Their authority comes from their boss, the commander.

I'm not seeing the problem.

YMMV

[Shuman 14]

Again, this is why we should adopt the Warrant Officer Model, with Professional Development linked to the Warrant Officer Grade.

SM - Newly Joined Member

WO-1 Level 1 and Level 2 part 1 complete

CWO-2 Level 2 part 2 complete

CWO-3 Level 3 complete

CWO-4 Level 4 complete

CWO-5 Level 5 complete

If you are in command, you are appointed to a Commissioned Rank appropriate to the level of command you hold.

Squadron Commander Cpt or Maj
Deputy Commander 2nd Lt or 1st Lt

Group Commander Maj or Lt Col

Wing Commander Col

Region Commander Col

etc.

There might be an allowance for graduated commanders to keep their appointed Rank if they successfully complete their command tour. This way you have to take a hard job to earn your Rank.

For all the other staff positions, we are Warrant Officers and that's it.

I would do away with all the special promotions for Doctors, Chaplains, lawyers, etc. and for Prior Service. Give all the Professional Development credit for the Military training and education, but not the rank.

I'd also eliminate the NCO Corps, when everyone is a Warrant Officer, there is no need.

And since the USAF has no Warrants, that helps identify us as CAP Officers and not USAF Officers, which should help with many of the uniform concerns.

ADDED DURING AN EDIT:

Also, I have heard some complaints, from Military personnel, that in the Military, you have to have a Bachelor's Degree to be a Commissioned Officer, but CAP Officers do not.

If we were all Warrant Officers (which are Specialists in their respective fields and do not require degrees to hold their positions/ranks in the Military) that complaint goes away and ceases to be a muttering point.

[N6RVT]

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Such as?

Wing commander & up, the worn insignia of rank actually matches the position.  LTC and below it has no bearing on what it is you actually do.

[N6RVT]

Again, this is why we should adopt the Warrant Officer Model with Professional Development linked to the Warrant Officer Grade.

SM - Newly Joined Member

WO-1 Level 1 and Level 2 part 1 complete

CWO-2 Level 2 part 2 complete

CWO-3 Level 3 complete

CWO-4 Level 4 complete

CWO-5 Level 5 complete

If you are in command, you are appointed to Commission Rank appropriate to the level of command you hold.

Squadron Commander Cpt or Maj
Deputy Commander 2nd Lt or 1st Lt

Group Commander Maj or Lt Col

Wing Commander Col

Region Commander Col

etc.

There might be an allowance for graduated commanders to keep their appointed Rank if they successfully complete their command tour. This way you have to take a hard job to earn your rank.

For all the other staff positions, we are Warrant Officers and that's it.

I do away with all the special promotions for Doctors, Chaplains, lawyers, etc. and for Prior Service. Give all the Professional Development credit for the Military training and education but not the rank.

I'd also eliminate the NCO Corps, when everyone is a Warrant Officer, there is no need.

And since the USAF has no Warrants, that helps identify as CAP Officers not USAF which should help with many of the uniform concerns.

Wow, I, like, agree with every part of this.  I don't even have a suggestion for an improvement anywhere.

[PHall]

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Such as?

Wing commander & up, the worn insignia of rank actually matches the position.  LTC and below it has no bearing on what it is you actually do.

Your CGAux tenancies are showing...

[etodd]

If you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

Wow!  Hmmm.  I fit in here. Not everyone wants to "assume command".

As a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.

[Shuman 14]

As a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.

So would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?

You would still be doing the very important job that you already are, the bling would change just slightly.

[etodd]

So would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?

Railroad tracks? I have zero idea what a Chief Warrant Officer is.  I'm a polo shirt guy. My Captain status is name only. No certificate, no bling for a shirt, ribbon, etc.  Nada. Not my thing. I'm just a worker bee in the trenches.

[Eclipse]

Not my thing. I'm just a worker bee in the trenches.

This attitude is part and parcel of the issue and disrespects the grade that someone
saw fit to confer upon you.

If this is your legitimate attitude, you should submit a 2A to your CC request permanent
demotion to Senior Member.

[Eclipse]

So would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?

Why do people believe that the fix for CAP's grade issues is simply a different set of grade?

Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

Anything else is just a different color of the same problem.

[Jester]

If you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

Wow!  Hmmm.  I fit in here. Not everyone wants to "assume command".

As a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.

Ok, you're a captain doing captain work.  Keep doing it. 

Also, your "aw shucks I'm just a regular guy" humblebrag/virtue signaling act wore thin a long time ago.

[Capt Thompson]

Why do people believe that the fix for CAP's grade issues is simply a different set of grade?

This right here^^^

If you think the rank structure is an issue, renaming the ranks to different ranks and making members buy new insignia isn't going to fix whatever problems you feel there may or may not be. All you're doing is making another set of problems.

To add to the mess, CAP would end up giving phase out dates a few years out, so for the next 3 years you'll have Captains and CWO3's standing side by side, and nobody knows what to call anyone because the guy with railroad tracks is also a CWO3 in eServices.

Sounds a lot like we're creating a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.

[Capt Thompson]

Also, with the changes in PD a few years back, completion of Level III gives you Capt now, and not Maj as it did in the past. Completion of Level IV requires a Master rating in a specialty track, and every track I'm enrolled in requires Group or Wing staff service to achieve a master rating. This pretty much kills the problem you all think exists, if someone doesn't want to step out of the Squadron and assume a higher position, Capt is the highest they will most likely achieve, and field grade positions will pretty much be Group staff or higher.

I'm sure there are still a few tracks where you can achieve Master without ever leaving the Squadron, but it seems as they have been updating them they've been adding that requirement in.

[etodd]

Also, your "aw shucks I'm just a regular guy" humblebrag/virtue signaling act wore thin a long time ago.

Sure, I mention it here and there. But always as a reminder to folks like I answered above, that not everyone in CAP is fired up about moving up the ranks/grade/whatever. There is nothing wrong with a volunteer who stays Level 1, and is happy to hand out water bottles and gets fulfillment knowing they are helping a cause. Its simply different strokes.