Toxic leadership - a real problem or sour grapes?

[JohhnyD]

Problem is a lot of the good folks that would do great get ejected via toxicity.

Indeed!

And for those who claim "no such thing!" - I reply "Pineda"

[RiverAux]

What are the average, mean and modal unit sizes?

Last I saw the average CAP unit size was somewhere around 30.  I'd be interested in current data on that. 

I do not hate the concept of anonymous 360 degree feedback. 

The thing is that you would need the next level to take such surveys seriously and act upon them.  Is a Wing Commander going to fire a squadron commander because 90% of the submitted reviews indicated that they were doing a horrible job?  I sort of doubt it.  The existing processes for evaluating unit effectiveness don't ever seem to result in firings when they find that a lot of stuff that should be done, isn't.

[Larry Mangum]

I would argue, that while there have been toxic leaders in the past and that we always have to be onguard for such, there has been a measurable increase in the quality of leadership at the wing and region and national levels.

If you want to fix the leadership issue in CAP however, we need to start training people to be leaders and stop assuming that everyone has what it takes to be leader or already knows how to be a leader. The military spends a lot of time on building leaders. Does CAP do that? Does professional development do it? I know part of the changes to the professional development program is a desire to accomplish that mission, but I have not heard of any surveys or statistics to show if it is being effective in doing so.

Just my 2 cents.

[JohhnyD]

The thing is that you would need the next level to take such surveys seriously and act upon them.  Is a Wing Commander going to fire a squadron commander because 90% of the submitted reviews indicated that they were doing a horrible job?  I sort of doubt it.  The existing processes for evaluating unit effectiveness don't ever seem to result in firings when they find that a lot of stuff that should be done, isn't.

That really is the issue, isn't it?

[JohhnyD]

Toxicity in the US Navy appears widespread: https://www.cotton.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/navy_report.pdf

The results of this project are unambiguous. There was a broad consensus across interviewees on numerous cultural and structural issues that impact the morale and readiness of the Navy's surface force. These include: an insufficient focus on warfighting skills, the perception of a zerodefect mentality accompanied by a culture of micromanagement, and over-sensitivity and responsiveness to modern media culture. Structural issues identified include lack of resources and consistency in surface warfare training programs, and the Navy's underwhelming commitment to surface ship maintenance—a problem that spans decades.

Concern within the Navy runs so high that, when asked whether incidents such as the two destroyer collisions in the Pacific, the surrender of a small craft to the IRGC in the Arabian Gulf, the burning of the Bonhomme Richard and other incidents were part of a broader cultural or leadership problem in the Navy, 94% of interviewees responded "yes," 3% said "no," and 3% said "unsure." And when asked if the incidents were directly connected, 55% said "yes," 16%
said "no," and 29% said "unsure." This sentiment, that the Navy is dangerously off course, was overwhelming.

[Ned]

If you want to fix the leadership issue in CAP however, we need to start training people to be leaders and stop assuming that everyone has what it takes to be leader or already knows how to be a leader. The military spends a lot of time on building leaders. Does CAP do that? Does professional development do it? I know part of the changes to the professional development program is a desire to accomplish that mission, but I have not heard of any surveys or statistics to show if it is being effective in doing so.

I was on the BoG when we designed and implemented the current process for identifying and selecting CAP's CEO / National Commander.

It was apparent to us that the particular skillset needed to successfully lead a multi-million dollar organization with over 100 employees, tens of thousands of volunteers, a large aircraft and vehicle fleet, and a maddeningly complex set of customers and stakeholders was unlikely to be solely the product of CAP's professional development and education system.  Which at the time consisted of about three weeks of full time instruction plus a couple of weekends.

We knew that the most competitive candidates will have developed critical leadership and management skills outside of CAP, whether it was in the private sector, military or government, or in other NGOs.

Not to knock CAP's internal training in any way.  I have always been impressed with the curricula and experience of the instructors I have had growing up under the previous PD system, and in particular my time at the National Staff College.

But it is what it is.  And suffers from the inherent limitations of an education system designed to accommodate volunteers - namely the time and treasure members are required to invest to progress in our system.

In my Army career, my Uncle Sam sent me to countless schools, including spending many months away from my family and, importantly, my civilian career.  And in garden spots like Alabama and Kansas.  Tough to take for a California boy.  That in addition to several metric tons of distance learning.  And even before that, Uncle Sam expected me to pay for and complete a 4 year degree before I could play.

In my civilian career, I have been required to attend literally thousands of hours of both technical and management training.

CAP simply has to leverage off a prospective leader's outside skills and training, but we do a lot of CAP-specific training, and cover the care and feeding of volunteers.  (Which is certainly not among the Army's core skills.)

We are fortunate that many members who are already successful leaders outside of CAP find CAP command and staff jobs to be rewarding.

[JohhnyD]

We are fortunate that many members who are already successful leaders outside of CAP find CAP command and staff jobs to be rewarding.

We are indeed. And when we get good to great leadership, amazing things happen. Thank you for your TTT - you make a difference!

[Larry Mangum]

If you want to fix the leadership issue in CAP however, we need to start training people to be leaders and stop assuming that everyone has what it takes to be leader or already knows how to be a leader. The military spends a lot of time on building leaders. Does CAP do that? Does professional development do it? I know part of the changes to the professional development program is a desire to accomplish that mission, but I have not heard of any surveys or statistics to show if it is being effective in doing so.

I was on the BoG when we designed and implemented the current process for identifying and selecting CAP's CEO / National Commander.

It was apparent to us that the particular skillset needed to successfully lead a multi-million dollar organization with over 100 employees, tens of thousands of volunteers, a large aircraft and vehicle fleet, and a maddeningly complex set of customers and stakeholders was unlikely to be solely the product of CAP's professional development and education system.  Which at the time consisted of about three weeks of full time instruction plus a couple of weekends.

We knew that the most competitive candidates will have developed critical leadership and management skills outside of CAP, whether it was in the private sector, military or government, or in other NGOs.

Not to knock CAP's internal training in any way.  I have always been impressed with the curricula and experience of the instructors I have had growing up under the previous PD system, and in particular my time at the National Staff College.

But it is what it is.  And suffers from the inherent limitations of an education system designed to accommodate volunteers - namely the time and treasure members are required to invest to progress in our system.

In my Army career, my Uncle Sam sent me to countless schools, including spending many months away from my family and, importantly, my civilian career.  And in garden spots like Alabama and Kansas.  Tough to take for a California boy.  That in addition to several metric tons of distance learning.  And even before that, Uncle Sam expected me to pay for and complete a 4 year degree before I could play.

In my civilian career, I have been required to attend literally thousands of hours of both technical and management training.

CAP simply has to leverage off a prospective leader's outside skills and training, but we do a lot of CAP-specific training, and cover the care and feeding of volunteers.  (Which is certainly not among the Army's core skills.)

We are fortunate that many members who are already successful leaders outside of CAP find CAP command and staff jobs to be rewarding.

Well said Ned!

[etodd]

Last I saw the average CAP unit size was somewhere around 30.  I'd be interested in current data on that. 

We have probably 20 members in our squadron that get counted since they keep paying dues as a donation, but haven't attended a meeting in years.  When Nat'l throws out numbers for marketing, it includes these people. The number of truly active people, nationwide, that attend meetings regularly would be eye opening I'm sure.

[N6RVT]

We have probably 20 members in our squadron that get counted since they keep paying dues as a donation, but haven't attended a meeting in years.  When Nat'l throws out numbers for marketing, it includes these people. The number of truly active people, nationwide, that attend meetings regularly would be eye opening I'm sure.

Since I started entering the sign-in sheets to the system, its been pretty consistent at about 50%.

More concerning is the fact about half of those who attend are in their first year, and that never seems to change.

[JohhnyD]

We have probably 20 members in our squadron that get counted since they keep paying dues as a donation, but haven't attended a meeting in years.  When Nat'l throws out numbers for marketing, it includes these people. The number of truly active people, nationwide, that attend meetings regularly would be eye opening I'm sure.

Since I started entering the sign-in sheets to the system, its been pretty consistent at about 50%.

More concerning is the fact about half of those who attend are in their first year, and that never seems to change.

Of our 140+ members, we probably see 80+ or so pretty regularly.

[baronet68]

What are the average, mean and modal unit sizes?

Last I saw the average CAP unit size was somewhere around 30.  I'd be interested in current data on that. 

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

[JohhnyD]

What are the average, mean and modal unit sizes?

Last I saw the average CAP unit size was somewhere around 30.  I'd be interested in current data on that. 

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Awesome, thank you!

[Eclipse]

What are the average, mean and modal unit sizes?

Last I saw the average CAP unit size was somewhere around 30.  I'd be interested in current data on that. 

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Does this remove AE, Congressional and patrons?

Regardless, with no tracking or vetting for participation, the numbers don't mean anything, or they can be used for
any point one wants to make.

I've argued for years that CAP's empty shirt quotient is at least 30%, and more likely in the 40's.

[TheSkyHornet]

From FB Group "Civil Air Patrol"

Recruiting and retention. We can, as a group do better.

I travel a lot and always try to visit, and even help, units at my various destinations. The experiences have been widely varied, both good and bad. I showed up at a gulf coast squadron one night, in senior pilot polo, and was greeted warmly by the commander. "You're a pilot! What are you checked out in and what for?" Everything and everything.  "Want to fly a sundown patrol tomorrow night, we'd love the help! Here's the lockbox code and you can take Rodney along as an MO to show  you our routes and comm procedures".
Juxtapose that against two different units in another state. Visited the first twice and NOT A SINGLE PERSON spoke to me out of the 20 or so in attendance unless I initiated the conversation. Then, during the meeting, they lamented about how hard it was to keep members and their critical shortage of pilots. "I" initiated a conversation with the commander and told him to ping me if they needed to crew a mission and needed a MP, MO or MS. The response floored me: "Pilots from other wings can't fly here unless you do a FULL F5, at your expense of course".
Was in another city in the same state and sent an email / left VM for every contact listed in the 'find a unit' page as well as the unit's FB page letting them know I'd be in town, with full kit, for a week and would be delighted to help out if needed. Crickets.


Guess which of the three units has NO PROBLEM finding and keeping people!


We, each of us, ARE the ambassadors for CAP!

I distinctly remember this post. It really stuck out to me.

My story was that I first visited a unit and was thrust into a conversation of brevities and jargon that I couldn't decipher. Before I was explained how professional development worked, I was being told about needing to complete my Level 1 and CPPT. Before I was explained how cadet promotions work, I was told about cadets getting the Mitchell Award being able to go into the Air Force. None of these things made sense to me.

I started visiting another unit because I really joined CAP to get involved in youth flying; charity flying if you will. I didn't really understand how it all worked, but I made a contact with another squadron that had a plane and started to visit them each week in addition to visiting the first unit as well. I started talking with a flight instructor from the second squadron who told me that I needed to be there every other week to do some ground school and learn the 182 and G1000. Every time I'd show up, the instructor would be late, and I'd sit there for an hour and a half and by the time it seemed that my turn came to get my lesson, he had to leave; I swear he sat there chatting with the older guys at the pilot table for the last 90 minutes. I'd go back and visit the first unit, and there was an animosity with me that I didn't belong there because I obviously was more interested in the second unit as a flyer, and I was suggested to transfer (I was a CAP member by this point). I was told that if I really wanted to fly, I needed to become a Mission Scanner, then Observer, and work on all of these other items before I could be a CAP pilot. I was told that I needed to really push the instructor to sit with me because that was the only way I'd get his attention. .... yeah, forget it.

Eventually, over time, I got involved in working with cadets, and that has been my exclusive role since I joined 6 years ago. To this day, I have never once flown in a CAP airplane. My time in a CAP 182 consists of me sitting on the ramp with a battery-GPU plugged in so I can understand how the G1000 works (I'm already familiar with it...).

So that's not to discuss my issues or what I need to do to get a Form 5. But I know exactly where that Facebook post is coming from.

[baronet68]

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Does this remove AE, Congressional and patrons?

Yes.

[N6RVT]

"The mean (average) of a data set is found by adding all numbers in the data set and then dividing by the number of values in the set. The median is the middle value when a data set is ordered from least to greatest. The mode is the number that occurs most often in a data set."

Because I have not seen this since College and freely admit I could not follow what you were saying (but understand it now)

[N6RVT]

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Does this remove AE, Congressional and patrons?

Yes.

If the mode is 18 and the average is 39, there must be some monster size squadrons.

[JohhnyD]

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Does this remove AE, Congressional and patrons?

Yes.

If the mode is 18 and the average is 39, there must be some monster size squadrons.

We are at 142 and climbing. Toured 6-8 prospective new members last week, 5 this week. Best guess is we will end 3Q2021 (9/30) at 160+/- and 4Q2021 between 175 and 200.

[PHall]

As of 13 Jul 2021:

Average = 39
Median = 33
Mode = 18

Total of 1099 squadrons and flights (excludes non-units such as headquarters, holding/reserve, legislative, etc.)

Does this remove AE, Congressional and patrons?

Yes.

If the mode is 18 and the average is 39, there must be some monster size squadrons.

We are at 142 and climbing. Toured 6-8 prospective new members last week, 5 this week. Best guess is we will end 3Q2021 (9/30) at 160+/- and 4Q2021 between 175 and 200.

But the "real" question is, how many will be around to renew in one year?
If you can get your renewal rate for first year members to be above 50% you will be beating the historical average that CAP has had for decades.
Recruiting is not the problem, it's retention where CAP has had their problems.