Started by PHall, January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
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Quote from: PHall on January 15, 2020, 11:11:24 pmEncampment is not Emergency Services and does not use the ICS system. It's an artificial Leadership Laboratory environment.
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 15, 2020, 11:25:58 pm... we're an organization where positional authority is (generally speaking) unrelated to grade within senior membership ....
Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.
Quote from: SARDOC on January 21, 2020, 05:45:19 pmQuote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.I think the key here is "almost" every situation. Being a retired career firefighter/Paramedic (not an Officer) It really is about position and qualifications. I've worked for Fire Captains and Lieutenants...when we responded to EMS calls (Almost 80%) of what we did. I was in charge of all patient care response and activities. They worked for me and I'd delegate tasks to them as needed. When I was the Acting EMS Supervisor, all on duty Fire Personnel including Battalion Chiefs and such all worked as my subordinates on all calls involving patient care.Then when the call was over the dynamics shifted....and then I'd ask if I could take the next shift off. Because those are the roles. I think the modern fire service is probably the most adept to understanding positional/situational leadership and responsibilities...just because they've been doing it for so long.
Quote from: Spam on January 27, 2020, 03:33:55 pmModification: I observed a few years ago, that every C/Officer in CAP is a Mustang (up from the ranks). If we incorporated a discrete emphasis on shedding the NCO role and assuming indirect Officership as part of the Mitchell transition, I think it would bear even more fruit.
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pmCadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific. Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between. Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2020, 10:35:10 pmAll through my first thirty years in CAP, I was associated with cadet and composite squadrons, in three wings and two countries. The proprieties were always observed - particularly salutes and Sir/Ma'am. First names were actively discouraged.If this is not happening in your unit, there's a leadership problem.
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pmCadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific. Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between. Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority. When I was a DCC I always impressed that a lawful order from any cadet leader (position) should be treated as if it came from me, unless the order posed a moral or safety dilemma. But I balanced this by making cadets use the Chain of Command both up and down. Cadet NCOs were responsible for direct leadership, cadet offices handled organizational leadership. I would often get the officers to think about their orders to get them to self determine if they sis the NCOs job.Unfortunately, there is not a Sr Mbr model to follow. I beg to differ, in the opinion that if cadets witnessed a Sr Mbr NCO ALWAYS saluting the officers in the unit, and always saying sir or ma'am, that that would not have a positive impression on the cadets. If a cadet officer could stand to take advice on matters from a Sr Mbr NCO this would also change, possible only slightly, the value of NCOs.I have know people that wouldn't join CAP simply because they weren't going to get some rank. Yeah, Sr. Mbrs regardless of grade need to watch their conduct around cadets. Believe it or not many of the things they do are learned by example, good or bad! Edited for clarity.
Quote from: catrulz on January 28, 2020, 01:54:49 pmOkay, first of all this was not a problem in my unit. But these situations do occur in every unit. The key nipping these situations in bud, before they ferment and cause larger problems. Once again, if you read my last post completely and thoroughly and not just the first couple of sentences, just as attitudes are contagious, so is example.Having NCOs in units would re-inforce the customs and courtesies that we require them to practice.
Quote from: Jester on January 28, 2020, 07:29:24 pmEvery time this pops up, I've learned to roll my eyes at the amount of people who are so overly concerned with how I and folks like me contribute to this organization, then move on to continue contributing to the organization.
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